Hybrids Produce More Emissions In Manufacturing Phase Per Toyota LCA
- Thread starter wxman
- Start date
MrMopar
Top Post Dawg
This is a pretty simplified rehash of the "Hummers are more Green that Priora" papers that have been floating about for a while. It has long been known that the Prius is a "whitewash" green vehicle that most people buy for image than for actual care about the environment. It is a show piece that very successfully distracts people from the fact that Toyota sells a lot of SUVs and pickups that are gas guzzlers like other vehicles in the categories. The Prius loses money for Toyota, and it only exists to be a loss leader to score Toyota some green points with the EPA and the motoring public with their puppy-like attention span.
The stupidity of this is anything you add as a option to your car adds to the emissions and energy used during manufacturing (including airbags)
The article doesn't have any numbers or comparisons to really provide a point. The simple fact is if you want to be environmental buy a used fuel efficient car and drive it into the ground. Hopefully your not suggesting your 2010 BMW is the poster child for environmentally friendly produced cars?
That Guy
Veteran Member
Not to mention all the "Smug" those hybrids put out.
Couldn't resist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smug_Alert!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UdmYInXplY
Couldn't resist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smug_Alert!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UdmYInXplY
wxman
Veteran Member
Don't shoot the messenger, man! The full report is available at http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/csr/report/10/download/pdf/sustainability_report10.pdf , specifically page 45.
Actually, I think I can make a case that the 335d is as "environmentally friendly" as comparable hybrids, e.g., Lexus GS450h, and even the Camry Hybrid.
Wow you still believe that garbage about the hummer using less energy than a Prius to manufacture? You really have to be nuts to think a 6,600lb vehicale uses less energy to produce over a 2,800lb vehicale. Hopefully you are aware that the same Ni used to produce battery packs are also used to produce the steel in a car.
I'm not saying the Prius is a green vehicale buts its no less green than any other comparable vehicale.
Yes Toyota lost money on every Gen1 Prius sold but i assure you they are making good money on the Gen2-3 models. Even VW losses money on their 1st year models as you have to recover your RD monies to produce it.
Wow; that's a pretty tiny amount if your referring to the graph on page 45.
I would agree, I'm not saying any hybrid is green. Don't believe any new car is green as none of the auto manufactures actually give a damn.
MrMopar
Top Post Dawg
I never supported or denied that paper - just said it's floating around. It's possible, given that a Hummer is forged and stamped out of pretty cheap steel. Instead of using high-strength steel in many parts, GM just made the standard steel thicker - hence the huge curb weight. I'm willing to bet that the energy consumption and pollution production for a Prius and H2 are pretty close, even giving their massive different curb weights. We can argue the merits of that paper all over again, but it's been done, and we won't come to a consensus. Let's just say that nickel mining/refining isn't cheap from an energy and pollution standpoint, and it pushes the environmental costs of the Prius higher than most people think - to a level that Toyota thus far refuses to publicly account for.
By holding the price lower to compete with the Honda Insight and other cars, I don't believe that Toyota is making a profit on Gen2 or Gen3 cars. I still believe they are a loss leader, and are pretty much sold near cost as a low-volume car for Toyota. Toyota has sold 2 million Priora worldwide as of 2010. The best annual sales in the USA was 2007 with 184,000 sold. That is a drop in the bucket for a company that sold 7.24 million cars in Fiscal Year 2010. Like the Big 3 (Ford, GM, and FIAT) the real money printing presses are in the pickups and SUVs that Toyota sells.
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Scott_DeWitt
Vendor
Steel in a Hummer will use a couple pounds of Nickle and the NiMH batteries in a Prius amount to several hundred pounds, and the Prius is made of the steel as well.
The argument is that over the lifetime of the Prius including manufacturing and disposal more CO2 is emitted than a traditional gasoline fueled vehicle.
All those morons who traded in their Explorers for Prius (using the Cash for clunkers) under the guise of going green and saving the planet actually spent more money, have less value and some reports have stated put 30% more CO2 into the atmosphere than if they kept their trade ins and drove their Explorers until the wheels fell off.
The argument is that over the lifetime of the Prius including manufacturing and disposal more CO2 is emitted than a traditional gasoline fueled vehicle.
All those morons who traded in their Explorers for Prius (using the Cash for clunkers) under the guise of going green and saving the planet actually spent more money, have less value and some reports have stated put 30% more CO2 into the atmosphere than if they kept their trade ins and drove their Explorers until the wheels fell off.
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That Guy
Veteran Member
Don't forget that those batteries need to be replaced every couple of years. That fact turned me off of electrics more than any other reason.
But I'm old school....I like to buy it, keep it well maintained, and keep it forever. (Until the wheels fall off.)
Most people today keep a vehicle for maybe 5 years....no matter what type it is. I wonder how many Hybrid owners plan on keeping their cars for longer than that. Kinda nullifies any greenness factor.
Until they come up with some kind of super battery that lasts forever I'm sticking with ICEs. And I'm still hoping that someone comes up with a super mass-produced bio-diesel. Can't get much greener than that.
But I'm old school....I like to buy it, keep it well maintained, and keep it forever. (Until the wheels fall off.
)Most people today keep a vehicle for maybe 5 years....no matter what type it is. I wonder how many Hybrid owners plan on keeping their cars for longer than that. Kinda nullifies any greenness factor.
Until they come up with some kind of super battery that lasts forever I'm sticking with ICEs. And I'm still hoping that someone comes up with a super mass-produced bio-diesel. Can't get much greener than that.
MrMopar
Top Post Dawg
There are intangible factors to account for with C4C vehicles. I didn't need a new car, but I wanted one with a warranty. The cash the government borrowed from China was free (to me) and my payments are within my budget. Plus, I got tired of no A/C and no radio.
If you read my reply it was directed at the OP (wxman)
The Prius has always been more expensive then it counter parts (civic, insight) and still owns the hybrid market. Considering the majority of those (1.4 million) were sold in the US and Toyota sells about 2 million cars in the US every year that's fairly significant number for NA Toyota. Its not a vary popular car in other Countries (very few even offer it) because they have better options than us for fuel efficient cars. Overall i could care less how much Toyota makes on it, all i know is ours has been done what we expected for the last 6 years and 100K miles. I tried the TDI and was extremely disappointed with its reliability and cost of ownership (performance and ride was great).
That must be why less than 6% of the worlds nickel supply goes to battery production
98% of the Ni on all NiMh batteries is completely recycled back to its original intended use in the steel production. As batteries switch over to Lithium then you have a point as its pretty rare not as easily recycled and mostly used for electronics and batteries.CO2 claim is complete BS, click the link provided by wxman.
MrMopar
Top Post Dawg
Ouch, color me embarassed for misreading this page. I have edited my post to delete that. Sorry.If you read my reply it was directed at the OP (wxman)
wxman
Veteran Member
Well, I'm not sure. Narrative on the graphic (yes I was referring to the graphic) states that the graphic results are expressed as "indexes". It appears that the highest emission (conventional vehicle SOx in this case) is set to unity with the other emission values fractions of that unity value. In other words, the scales are not distinct values, e.g., kilograms. Is that your understanding?
Based on the graphic, it appears that over half of the NOx emissions, ~80% of the NMHC, nearly all of the PM, and ~67% of the SOx emissions occur in the materials/vehicle manufacturing phase of the Prius' life cycle emissions (over a 100,000 km driving distance).
The only thing that's not clear to me is whether Toyota used well-to-wheels or pump-to-wheels in the "driving" portion of the LCA. WTW should be used, but fairly significant PM emissions occur in the well-to-pump phase of what should appear in the "driving" phase of the LCA, and Toyota's LCA graphic doesn't depict that.
The point is, most comments I've seen deal ONLY with exhaust emissions. This LCA shows that "tailpipe" emissions do not tell the whole vehicle emission story.
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