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VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) This is a general discussion about A4/MkIV Jetta (99.5-~2005), Golf(99.5-2006), and New Beetle(98-2006). Both VE and PD engines are covered here.

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Old November 12th, 2018, 09:28   #1
towforce
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Default BEW, Glow Plug settings.....

A few questions about the glow plug system on my 05 BEW.

Short background, 460,000kms, I had the VW Ceramic to Steel recall done (way back....), Recently had a Stage One Malone Tune to deal with "Warm start" issues that the Tune solved (Tune ID ends with "SG"), No Codes recorded, Temp sensor seems to be reading correctly, Anything less than 3-4 C and she gets grumpy to start. New battery, good crank speeds, runs perfect warm.

So... I've gone from a Warm Start issue to a Cold start issue.

My Questions,

-With the VCDS I see a pre-glow setting of 1.6 seconds, is this normal?
-Is it possible the GP's are failing and not heating? (and not throwing a code?) We don't get allot of cold weather and these plugs have been in for at least 12 years.... my old 82 Rabbit used to carve through GP's like crazy but I honestly don't know much about the ones in the BEW.

-What is the best way to Log a cold start? If I'm key off, I don't have a connection to the controller, so how do I catch the initial glow plug event?
Below is what I did log (edited up to crank and start ).....

Thanks

**********************************************
Sunday 11 November 2018 09:56:26:63327-VCID:27432875951A4B72B7-515A VCDS Version: Release 18.9.0 (x64) Data version: 20180927 DS296.0
038 997 016 L ADVMB R4 1.9L EDC G000SG 3791
G012 F0 G012 F1 G012 F2
Marker TIME Group 12 - Field 0 TIME Group 12 - Field 1 TIME Group 12 - Field 2
STAMP Glow Status STAMP Pre-Glow Period STAMP Supply Voltage - (Terminal 30)
s V
10.12 0 10.12 1.61 10.12 14.67
10.28 0 10.28 1.61 10.28 14.29
10.44 0 10.44 1.61 10.44 14.21
10.59 0 10.59 1.61 10.59 14.14
10.75 0 10.75 1.61 10.75 14.14
10.91 0 10.91 1.61 10.91 14.14
11.08 0 11.08 1.61 11.08 14.14
11.23 0 11.23 1.61 11.23 14.14
11.39 0 11.39 1.61 11.39 14.14
11.54 0 11.54 1.61 11.54 14.14
11.71 0 11.71 1.61 11.71 14.14
11.87 0 11.87 1.61 11.87 14.14
12.03 0 12.03 1.61 12.03 14.14
12.19 0 12.19 1.61 12.19 14.14
12.34 0 12.34 1.61 12.34 14.14
12.5 0 12.5 1.61 12.5 14.14
12.67 0 12.67 1.61 12.67 14.21
12.83 0 12.83 1.61 12.83 14.21
18.3 0 18.3 1.61 18.3 14.21
19.47 1010000 19.47 0 19.47 13.98
19.62 1010000 19.62 0 19.62 13.98
19.78 1010000 19.78 0 19.78 13.98
19.94 1010000 19.94 0 19.94 13.98
20.09 1010000 20.09 0 20.09 13.98
20.25 1010000 20.25 0 20.25 13.98
20.4 1010000 20.4 0 20.4 13.98
20.56 1010000 20.56 0 20.56 13.98
20.72 1010000 20.72 0 20.72 13.98
20.89 1010000 20.89 0 20.89 13.98
21.04 1010000 21.04 0 21.04 13.98
21.21 1010000 21.21 0 21.21 13.98
21.37 1010000 21.37 0 21.37 13.98
21.54 1010000 21.54 0 21.54 13.98
21.71 1010000 21.71 0 21.71 13.91
21.87 1010000 21.87 0 21.87 13.91
22.03 1010000 22.03 0 22.03 13.91
22.19 1010000 22.19 0 22.19 13.91
22.34 1010000 22.34 0 22.34 13.91
22.5 1010000 22.5 0 22.5 13.91
22.65 1010000 22.65 0 22.65 13.91
22.81 1010000 22.81 0 22.81 13.91
22.97 1010000 22.97 0 22.97 13.91
23.12 1010000 23.12 0 23.12 13.91
23.28 1010000 23.28 0 23.28 13.91
23.44 1010000 23.44 0 23.44 13.91
23.59 1010000 23.59 0 23.59 13.91
23.75 1010000 23.75 0 23.75 13.91
23.9 1010000 23.9 0 23.9 13.91
24.06 1010000 24.06 0 24.06 13.91
24.22 1010000 24.22 0 24.22 13.91
24.37 1010000 24.37 0 24.37 13.91
24.53 1010000 24.53 0 24.53 13.91
24.71 1010000 24.71 0 24.71 13.91
24.87 1010000 24.87 0 24.87 13.91
25.03 1010000 25.03 0 25.03 13.91
25.19 1010000 25.19 0 25.19 13.91
25.34 1010000 25.34 0 25.34 13.68
25.52 11000000 25.52 0 25.52 11.32
25.69 11000000 25.69 0 25.69 11.86
25.84 11000000 25.84 0 25.84 12.08
26 11111111 26 0 26 12.31
26.15 11111111 26.15 0 26.15 12.92
26.31 11111111 26.31 0 26.31 13.07
26.47 11111111 26.47 0 26.47 13.07
26.62 11111111 26.62 0 26.62 13.07
26.78 11111111 26.78 0 26.78 13.07
26.94 11111111 26.94 0 26.94 13.07
27.09 11111111 27.09 0 27.09 13.22
27.25 11111111 27.25 0 27.25 13.45
27.4 11111111 27.4 0 27.4 13.91
27.56 11111111 27.56 0 27.56 14.59
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Old November 12th, 2018, 16:51   #2
JDSwan87
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Can't help you with your VCDS log but you need to find out how many volts your harness is putting out, 5V or 7V. Easiest way would be to ask your tuner what GP software they installed...
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Old November 12th, 2018, 20:55   #3
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Sent them a note to check on the output. When VW did the recall they installed the N-105-916-07 Glow plugs, which I'm pretty sure are 5V. (have had a brand new set sitting on the self for almost 10 years.....)
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Old November 13th, 2018, 04:19   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by towforce View Post
Sent them a note to check on the output. When VW did the recall they installed the N-105-916-07 Glow plugs, which I'm pretty sure are 5V. (have had a brand new set sitting on the self for almost 10 years.....)
There was a 2nd TSB to revert back from 5V to 7V I believe... it could be possible your GP's need replacement, they still turn on up to 45*F I believe. What is your static timing like?
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Old November 13th, 2018, 05:20   #5
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With that mileage, I would be looking for compression values.

Also 12 years for glow plugs is a lot, specially if they work a lot due to weather conditions.
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Old November 13th, 2018, 06:03   #6
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Did not specifically look at the Torsion Value, but warm it had been set at "0", did note during the last logged start, -3 C, The value started off around 9, and was dropping to 6 within the first minute.

The second recall was not extended to my vehicle and they remained 5v .

Will plug in and double check the Torsion Value when the "Warm" vehicle arrives back home tonight.

Martin
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Old November 13th, 2018, 06:47   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by towforce View Post
Did not specifically look at the Torsion Value, but warm it had been set at "0", did note during the last logged start, -3 C, The value started off around 9, and was dropping to 6 within the first minute.
The second recall was not extended to my vehicle and they remained 5v .
Will plug in and double check the Torsion Value when the "Warm" vehicle arrives back home tonight.
Martin
Torsion value and static timing are 2 separate things...
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Old November 13th, 2018, 16:25   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDSwan87 View Post
Torsion value and static timing are 2 separate things...
So.... Enlighten me?

My BEW understanding is the belt/timing is set by the locked install possition of the cam belt and tweaked by the adjustment of the cam sensor via the cam sprocket, computer displays this setting in term of torsion value.... maybe I got it wrong or are you thinking I'm running the older VE.

"Static" timing is what you get on a BEW when you put the belt on.... Properly....I think.

Martin
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Old November 13th, 2018, 18:29   #9
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Just a correction to a posting above re: Torsion value during the warm up from -3C..... My mistake, not Torsion value (I thought it was part of the group), I believe it is something like injection duration and is represented in Kw.

My bad.

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Old November 14th, 2018, 01:03   #10
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Start of injection probably, usually starts at 10/9btdc
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Old November 15th, 2018, 07:47   #11
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I had some correspondence with my "Tuner" (Malone), they indicated that what ever the original GP voltage was (1st VW recall to 5v), it would have remained the same. Must admit, not a particularly satisfying reply as I could not get a confirmation that MY Tune was for certain the 5V version but it was an Email exchange and it would have probably been better to just walk in and ask.

Anybody know if you can use the VCDS to actually see the voltage output settings and times for the GP's?

For now, even tho I'm not seeing any codes, I'm going to do a little more work to properly assess what the GP's are doing and if they are simply too old to be producing enough heat to give a proper cold start.

It could be purely coincidence that I'm having a cold start issue since having the Tune performed.

Martin
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Old November 15th, 2018, 09:02   #12
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I never had any GP recalls performed on my Golf. In the past I measured 5v @ idle and up to 7v @ 1500 rpm at the GP harness. I've been using the 5v steelies for a very long time with no problems.
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Old November 15th, 2018, 20:22   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by towforce View Post
I had some correspondence with my "Tuner" (Malone), they indicated that what ever the original GP voltage was (1st VW recall to 5v), it would have remained the same.
I would think the voltage is controlled in the G-P relay, not the ECU.
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Old November 16th, 2018, 06:38   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wonneber View Post
I would think the voltage is controlled in the G-P relay, not the ECU.

Relays are just electromechanical switches, they have no ability to regulate voltage.


In PDs, the voltage output to the glowplugs is indeed changed by the ECU via pulse width modulation. They originally came with ceramic glowplugs, rated at 7V. The seven volts were achieved by pulsing 12V at approximately 58% duty cycle. Unfortunately the original ceramic glowplugs were fragile little things and would crumble into extremely abrasive chunks if they were dropped or treated poorly.


So VW came up with a fix, steel GPs rated at 5V. These were accompanied by a recall tune from VW that lowered the voltage duty cycle (down to about 42%). None of the electrical components were changed aside from the plugs.


My experience is that the steel 5V plugs don't start for **** in actual cold weather. I will be getting retuned by RC to go back to 7V plugs.
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Old November 16th, 2018, 08:35   #15
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Somethings remain a mystery.....

I've kept up glow plug saga and I well aware of the 7v-5v-7v evolution and ceramic-steel-ceramic material changes. Thanks to my Tuner I got a link to the VW bulletin that spells out the last change (a change that as the original owner I never received... tho, I'm pretty sure I heard about it and ignored it as I was a bit leery of the "New" ceramics...)

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/PD_...ul_12-2010.pdf

My cold start issue is a bit of a mix of issues, I had recently done a "tune" and just had a short stint in a somewhat cold starting condition (-3C). To be clear, up until this recent event, I never had an issue with cold starts and the 5v but out here on the West Coast of Canada, your seldom going to be taking the -20C North Dakota "death start".

Like I said earlier, I'm going to dig a little deeper into what's going on with the 5v GP's and determine if they are heating properly (after all, a 10 year old GP may be getting weak and contributing to the issue). I'm not saying I don't believe in the last version 7v ceramics I'm just not convinced my version of 5v's can't do better (as I believe they seem to work fine up until recently).

Should the opportunity come up, I may move to the latest 7v's but noted the following from the recall in the link above... to go back to a 7v configuration VW lists along with latest version GP's ( N 105 916 09 ) a Glow Plug Control Module is required (038 907 281 D ).

In the posting above, there is mention of the duty cycle and that a relay is just a relay... sound logical. My tuner indicates that the tune has nothing to do with the GP side things. So, just for clarity, is this how the GP System works?.....

-ECM (Engine Control Module) sends a request during the start to the GP System. (this is where the tuner does their magic... I assume)

-The GP system has a GP "Control Module" (this seems specific to the last upgrade and or the original "stock" version and is pre-programmed to either the 7v or 5v output?) my question here would be, is this module programmable?

-The GP "Control Module" controls a GP relay? Which switches the power on and off to the GP harness and GP's. (I would assume this "relay" should work with both the 7v and 5v versions.

Or... do I have this wrong, is the GP "control Module" and the GP "Relay" the same beast?

Of course there could be a million other things contributing to the cold start question, like compression, fuel (insert endless list of ideas here)... but given how well this high km engine is running (when its up and warm) I thought I would focus on the GP's for now.

Curious,

Martin
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