NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

Smokin_Joe · Mar 14, 2015

turbovan+tdi said:
And don't forget, it seems Canadian's, except Joe, are not getting covered, double butt whammy.

Really???
Not right, it's just not right
It didn't come easily.
Are you sure?

PlaneCrazy · Mar 14, 2015

Smokin_Joe said:
Really???
Not right, it's just not right
It didn't come easily.
Are you sure?

When my pump "failed" at 92k km or thereabouts, VW refused to cover it. Even though the powertrain warranty was still in effect, VW claims the pump is not part of the powertrain. This is like VW claiming that a hole isn't a hole when it's on a VW (I'm trying to make a rust perforation claim for the back right door of our old B5.5; even though VW changed the two front doors for the same issue they're now refusing to cover the rear door. An other thread for another day).

I fought VW like crazy and managed to get 2/3 coverage for the HPFP, which reduced to 1/2 when I insisted on a new and not reman pump.

Then the car continued to produce the same symptoms for which the pump was changed... symptoms strangely like IC water ingestion, and VW would not do anything for me about that issue either even though they installed the IC kit way back in 2012 (and screwed up that installation leading to a burst rad hose a few months later, and I still had some hard start issues after).

In any case they claimed the HPFP wasn't producing spec fuel rail pressure and they saw some metal in the filter, so they thought the pump and fuel starvation was responsible for my sudden loss of power at WOT. They only changed the pump, not the entire fuel system.

Finally in Dec. 2013 I took the car in for regular service and complained again about loss of power at WOT and hard starts. The day I took it in, it was -30C outside and they found the IC hose choked with ice. Their solution was to remove the intake duct from the rad to the airbox. At the same time they replaced the exhaust flap under the extended warranty for that part. Since then I've had no further power loss or hard starts.

For all that though, they changed the HPFP and didn't want to cover it. They made it clear that the part compensation was "good will". Oddly enough, VW kicked in 3/4 of the cost to replace the balance shaft module with a geared unit on our B5.5, they paid $3k of a $4k job, and the car had over 180k km on it, so 80k out of the powertrain warranty!!!

The only consistent thing about VW customer service is that it's inconsistent. I'm pretty fed up with that aspect of VW ownership. If it wasn't that all other cars in my price range pretty much suck in comparison, I would have ditched VWs by now. Lousy CS is the price of owning a VW.

turbovan+tdi · Mar 14, 2015

Smokin_Joe said:
Really???
Not right, it's just not right
It didn't come easily.
Are you sure?

Yep, read the failure thread, pretty well all of VW Canada failures were denied vs USA fixed them all.

Smokin_Joe · Mar 14, 2015

PlaneCrazy said:
When my pump "failed" at 92k km or thereabouts, VW refused to cover it...... Lousy CS is the price of owning a VW.

Thanks
Ours was covered under "research" the first time.
They knew better than to hassle us the second time because we had lab evidence.
If it happens again I am not sure where we will stand.
When our VW extended warranty ends we will have to make some hard decisions.
VW customer service was arguing against me and defending a dealer. The dealer said we needed a new carpet because it was cut too short at the factory. What happen was they didn't replace a one time use fitting holding the edge of the carpet. They wanted to tear our new car apart to rip Volkswagen of Canada off.
That was posted here
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=322557
The carpet didn't need replacing and the dealer was a crook.
I had to push really hard to protect them from themselves lol.
Remember I am Canadian eh

Smokin_Joe · Mar 14, 2015

turbovan+tdi said:
Yep, read the failure thread, pretty well all of VW Canada failures were denied vs USA fixed them all.

Maybe we had some leftover brownie points from the carpet issue lol
Any specific pages on the thread talking about the Canadians vs Americans results.
The thread is pretty long and I am not sure where I left off last time.
Thanks

turbovan+tdi · Mar 14, 2015

Smokin_Joe said:
Maybe we had some leftover brownie points from the carpet issue lol
Any specific pages on the thread talking about the Canadians vs Americans results.
The thread is pretty long and I am not sure where I left off last time.
Thanks

Not really, I just have a pretty good memory and almost every Canadian that posted got told to pound sand.

I'll never own a newer TDI until they fix the issue and I've told so many people about the issue I've lost track. VW lost a lot of sales because of this and funnily enough, I don't feel sorry for them.

Smokin_Joe · Mar 14, 2015

Oh here is the HPFP Failure thread

Just found a link to the failure thread. For some reason it didn't come up on my search earlier. I was rereading this one and came across it.
I will check it out later.
See if I can't pass on some tips to help with getting coverage.
Maybe I was just lucky.
I do know that I have updated the file that the DOT has on this matter.
I also have contact name and number handling the this file at the DOT.
Later....
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=299854&highlight=hpfp+failure

psrumors · Mar 15, 2015

Smokin_Joe said:
I agree with anyone that says that the HPFP system on the TDI Volkswagens have a problem and needs redesigning.
Anything I say would be my opinion based on my direct experience with certain aftermarket repair shops, Volkswagen of Canada, Volkswagen of Canada dealers, Oil analysis lab and internet postings like this.
Other sources not mentioned could be the DOT and the NHTSA.

If I infered that the only source of the HPFP pump failures was due to the fuel sending rods rusting my apologizes.

My intent was to inform everyone that one source of premature HPFP failures was incorrect steel content used in the lift pumps, leading to fuel starvation.
Why they haven't had a recall on this problem would be speculative on everyone's part.
We don't operate a multimillion corporation where decisions regarding recalls are determined based on some small figure per unit.
When you multiply those $$'s x per unit the costs become enormous.

The HPFP had started to make noise and was replaced. The new one made the same noise and then they inspected the filtration system.
The dealer tried to get me to replace the whole fuel system on our dime due to miss fueling. We refused to even look at a bill and left.
We took it to a high performance shop, specializing in Volkswagens. He was well aware of the rust problem and recommended using Stanadyne additive.

(my opinion and presumption of everyone"s attitude)
Everyone is saying that the fuel in North America is substandard and is the cause of the problems.
I refused to believe this.

He said the dealer should have seen slight evidence in the filter on previous services and he had never seen it this bad before. (This repair shop had been recommended to me by a buddy who had a high performance TDI before the failures started.)

This lead me to believe that the dealers were not informed to look for rust in the fuel system at every service.

Volkswagen of Canada is stubborn and didn't want any part of paying to repair the vehicle and when the regional rep agreed it was done at the bare minimum.
(Again my opinion)
The minimal repair lead to a complete failure of the HPFP, a few months later. The wife was left on the side of the highway after little or no warning. It started to act cold and unresponsive. It stalled a couple of times and it refused to start. It was towed to the dealer.
This repair came with a totally different attitude.
They tested for miss-fueling and they replaced the complete fuel system.
They never accused us of anything and we were met with the utmost courtesy.

(Remember all of this is my opinion based on my experiences)

Cummins have engines that are running High injection pressures as great as the TDI. These same engines are reprogrammed by others and produce even higher pressures.
Check out Pittsburgh Power.
http://www.pittsburghpower.com/
Allot of diesel manufacturers are running high injector pressures and they are NOT having the same issues.

I personally have a 03 Dodge Cummins with a cp3 injection pump.
I have an Edge Juice with Attitude programmer.
Earlier model Cummins had Bosch injector pumps, they were prone to failure if the lift pump didn't supply consistent pressure.
My CP3 has had fluctuations in lift pump pressure and has yet to fail. I now run a Fass 150 lift pump for filtration.
When I saw the rust in the wifes filter and knew that the HPFP was starving I remembered the troubles the early injector pumps had on the Dodge Cummins.

I agree with anyone that the filtration, HPFP, fuel sending unit and any other parts that are failing prematurely should be corrected.

Good luck one and all

For the record, Ford and Cummins have had their share of HPFP failures, not sure about Chevy as I don't follow the Duramax.

kjclow · Mar 15, 2015

Have there been any reported issues with the new ram diesel?

ATR · Mar 15, 2015

psrumors said:
For the record, Ford and Cummins have had their share of HPFP failures, not sure about Chevy as I don't follow the Duramax.

Google found some good information on chevy duramax:
http://www.duramaxforum.com/forum/2...re.html#/forumsite/20663/topics/119437?page=1

Sounds like something that I posted on almost a year ago was right:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=410062

GoFaster · Mar 15, 2015

As far as I can tell, every engine that uses the Bosch CP4 has a rate of fuel pump failure that is higher than it should be, although the failure rates seem to vary, and certainly the complaints rate varies depending on how the manufacturer handles their customers.

I won't buy anything that has a CP4 injection pump. Since that includes most modern diesels ... I'm back to gasoline engines. The Chevrolet Cruze diesel may have been a failure in the marketplace, but it doesn't use a CP4, and the vaporware-in-North-America Mazda diesels don't use it, either.

Smokin_Joe · Mar 15, 2015

psrumors said:
For the record, Ford and Cummins have had their share of HPFP failures, not sure about Chevy as I don't follow the Duramax.

Well as far as I know the Fords have always had a problem (lol I know I am biased)
To be honest all manufacturers have one issue or another, but the scariest that I have experienced is owning a TDI that you know has a serious issue that can let you down at any moment.
A fault that is beyond your control and can rear it's ugly head when you yourself have done nothing to deserve it.
The only fault I have with my Cummins is the auto isn't designed to take the torque the engine can put out. Especially with today's programmers.
Some day it will need to be rebuilt and I am, currently, putting out 100hp over stock. When it is time I will probably be able to drive it to the shop to get it done.
My Dodge is running the same batteries that came with it new.
12 years old and counting. Original tires and they aren't half worn out. 95000 Kms, brakes, ball joints, universals, drivetrain, all mint and I have no issues with taking off on a 5000 mile trip.
Ball joints get replaced on these things needlessly because the shop says they need replacement.
Chrysler is in the middle of a huge recall of their tie rods, idler arm etc.
These issues only really come to play when guys are running over size tires, lift kits, bush bumpers etc.
Chrysler is bending over backwards to make them strong enough to play....HARD.
They are taking a ribbing over it but.....THEY ARE PUTTIN OUT THE EFFORT TO MAKE IT BETTER not fix it as it comes up.
No car company is perfect but come on... this problem with TDI is heartbreakin for those who bought the car new expecting it to last them with no worries.
Why else buy new?
Sorry off on a rant.
Bottom line the HPFP problem with the TDI isn't the same as with other vehicles because I haven't heard of any other manufacturer who has had to replace everything, in the fuel system, when it fails.

Anyone can have a catastrophic failure of one sort or another but they shouldn't use statistics to make it's continued failure acceptable.

Big business is just that and shouldn't be above answering to the little people that allow them to stay in business. They shouldn't be allowed to roll the dice with other peoples lives.

Someone on the forum put forth the idea that Bosch, in order to save money, cut corners and this is the result.

They aren't the only ones.

I think it was the L1011's, which had Rolls Royce engines that were spec'd using one type of metal and when it came time to supply the engines the metal costs had skyrocketed and they substituted. The fins started cracking and remember all the crashes of the three engine planes....
The giant tail engine blew up and took out the hydraulics.

(Again all my personal feelings and opinions, yours may differ based on your experiences. Thanks for listening)

DPM · Mar 15, 2015

Smokin_Joe said:
Bottom line the HPFP problem with the TDI isn't the same as with other vehicles because I haven't heard of any other manufacturer who has had to replace everything, in the fuel system, when it fails.

Well, if you haven't heard, it just means you weren't listening fifteen or so years back when CR hit the European markets...

psrumors · Mar 15, 2015

Smokin_Joe said:
Bottom line the HPFP problem with the TDI isn't the same as with other vehicles because I haven't heard of any other manufacturer who has had to replace everything, in the fuel system, when it fails.

Hate to tell you but yes, Dodge and Ford alike have required entire fuel system replacements, they even call for the tanks to be replaced not just cleaned. And neither Dodge nor Ford will pay for the $800 fuel tank IF it is covered under warranty.

kjclow · Mar 15, 2015

GoFaster said:
The Chevrolet Cruze diesel may have been a failure in the marketplace, but it doesn't use a CP4, and the vaporware-in-North-America Mazda diesels don't use it, either.

Chevrolet would have been much better off putting that diesel in the Malibu. I have never found a Cruze rental that made me think I needed one in my garage. I always thought they used the Cruze as a scape goat. Chevy can point it and say, "See we were right. Diesels won't sell in US and Canada".

And you're right, Mazda has not had a diesel fuel pump failure in North America!

tditom · Mar 15, 2015

GoFaster said:
As far as I can tell, every engine that uses the Bosch CP4 has a rate of fuel pump failure that is higher than it should be, although the failure rates seem to vary, and certainly the complaints rate varies depending on how the manufacturer handles their customers...

I haven't heard of any BMW 328d failures yet. Have you?

eb2143 · Mar 15, 2015

kjclow said:
Have there been any reported issues with the new ram diesel?

Edmunds' longterm Ram diesel just returned to fleet following what appears to be pump failure after the truck stalled in traffic. I believe the entire fuel system was replaced, under warranty, of course. Fuel was reported grossly okay, no misfuel immediately prior.

Smokin_Joe · Mar 15, 2015

psrumors said:
Hate to tell you but yes, Dodge and Ford alike have required entire fuel system replacements, they even call for the tanks to be replaced not just cleaned. And neither Dodge nor Ford will pay for the $800 fuel tank IF it is covered under warranty.

Actually on the Cummins forum and I haven't heard of anyone having this done.
Haven't heard of a 5 year old thread cryin the blues about it either.
Sorry not falling for it.
Just did a search of the internet and Cummins Forum nothing came up about any complete fuel system replacement.
Like I said not buyin it.
Ford everything on those trucks are prone to failure lol.

Truck has absolutely no worries and there isn't a list of worried owners.

Smokin_Joe · Mar 15, 2015

DPM said:
Well, if you haven't heard, it just means you weren't listening fifteen or so years back when CR hit the European markets...

Didn't own one 15 years ago. Bought my 03 Dodge Cummins totally on faith, in North American Technology.
I was a Chevy guy who didn't like the look of the body style and went for the better looking Dodge.
Man I am so shallow...lol
Bought the wife's TDI again on faith, in German Engineering, and good looks...Man I am so stupid
Say la vie

Whose CR?

Smokin_Joe · Mar 15, 2015

I remember years ago Lucas used to supply all the electronics for the British made cars and they had a really flaky reputation.
A young fellow took control of British Leyland and told all the supplers that if their part failed and the car needed a tow to get service, it was on their dime.
The cars quality improved overnight.
Personally I think Volkswagen should hold Bosch accountable.
(Remember my opinion)

DPM · Mar 16, 2015

Smokin_Joe said:
Didn't own one 15 years ago. Bought my 03 Dodge Cummins totally on faith, in North American Technology.
I was a Chevy guy who didn't like the look of the body style and went for the better looking Dodge.
Man I am so shallow...lol
Bought the wife's TDI again on faith, in German Engineering, and good looks...Man I am so stupid
Say la vie

Whose CR?

All of them at first. PSA, Fiat, anything with a CP1 pump. At one stage, sight of metallic particles in the FF would've meant considering replacement of everything from the tank forward.
Some years later it was realised that the electric lift pump would shed brass off it's commutator...

But the early CP1s *did* have some kind of metallurgical issue, fuel with moisture or borderline lubricity would kill'em.
Oh, wait. That sounds familiar, no?

psrumors · Mar 16, 2015

Smokin_Joe said:
Actually on the Cummins forum and I haven't heard of anyone having this done.
Haven't heard of a 5 year old thread cryin the blues about it either.
Sorry not falling for it.
Just did a search of the internet and Cummins Forum nothing came up about any complete fuel system replacement.
Like I said not buyin it.
Ford everything on those trucks are prone to failure lol.

Truck has absolutely no worries and there isn't a list of worried owners.

I can personally attest (I know, I am just some guy on the internet) to a 2011 4500 and 2013 5500 loosing their HPFPs and requiring complete fuel system replacements. Sure it isn't near the level of Ford or VW but it does happen. Of course we have also destroyed the transfer case on the 5500 and a 3500 along with the trans on the 5500.

Now the Fords had 3 or 4 complete engine failures (have one now with 30k miles knocking to high heaven), 5 HPFP failures but no trans or transfer case issues.

This all in a (revolving) fleet of 8 trucks.

It is nearly impossible to get 100k miles out of any of these trucks without a major failure when they are worked hard on a daily basis. Except for the '10 3500 all trucks are 450/550 or 4500/5500, sporting flatbeds pulling 20k lbs plus and 6 men crews 5 to 6 days a week.

The one thing (which is a real shame it is needed) Ford has done is offered a 150k mile bump to bump warranty ($5k) on commercial use. This should allow us to get to 100k miles where the truck will be paid for and then get another 50k miles without out of pocket repair costs

Smokin_Joe · Mar 16, 2015

psrumors said:
I can personally attest (I know, I am just some guy on the internet) to a 2011 4500 and 2013 5500 loosing their HPFPs and requiring complete fuel system replacements. Sure it isn't near the level of Ford or VW but it does happen. Of course we have also destroyed the transfer case on the 5500 and a 3500 along with the trans on the 5500.

Now the Fords had 3 or 4 complete engine failures (have one now with 30k miles knocking to high heaven), 5 HPFP failures but no trans or transfer case issues.

This all in a (revolving) fleet of 8 trucks.

It is nearly impossible to get 100k miles out of any of these trucks without a major failure when they are worked hard on a daily basis. Except for the '10 3500 all trucks are 450/550 or 4500/5500, sporting flatbeds pulling 20k lbs plus and 6 men crews 5 to 6 days a week.

The one thing (which is a real shame it is needed) Ford has done is offered a 150k mile bump to bump warranty ($5k) on commercial use. This should allow us to get to 100k miles where the truck will be paid for and then get another 50k miles without out of pocket repair costs

Sounds tough
What kind of work are you doing with them?
Might want to consider a baby version from a Class 8 company. International, Kenworth, Freightliner to name a few. They should last longer and they do offer crew cabs.

Smokin_Joe · Mar 16, 2015

DPM said:
All of them at first. PSA, Fiat, anything with a CP1 pump. At one stage, sight of metallic particles in the FF would've meant considering replacement of everything from the tank forward.
Some years later it was realised that the electric lift pump would shed brass off it's commutator...

But the early CP1s *did* have some kind of metallurgical issue, fuel with moisture or borderline lubricity would kill'em.
Oh, wait. That sounds familiar, no?

Thanks
The change in diesel from low sulfur to ultra low sulfur has caused some of these problems, I'm sure, but this issue with our TDI's seems to fail to remedy these problems.
I guess the thing that bothers me the most is we bought a car that we felt we could grow old with, at a time in our lives that should last us till and into retirement. Only to find we have to shop for something else, make another 5 years of payments and take a loss on the equity we should of had on our first purchase.
I share the hardship from allot of posters who suddenly find out they bought a ticking bomb.

psrumors · Mar 16, 2015

Smokin_Joe said:
Sounds tough
What kind of work are you doing with them?
Might want to consider a baby version from a Class 8 company. International, Kenworth, Freightliner to name a few. They should last longer and they do offer crew cabs.

Erosion control. We've looked at the various B series trucks and to get 4 wheel drive and crew cab is just cost prohibitive on our revenue. Plus the trucks just get too big to get in some of the places we must go.

owr084 · Mar 16, 2015

Smokin_Joe said:
I remember years ago Lucas used to supply all the electronics for the British made cars and they had a really flaky reputation.
A young fellow took control of British Leyland and told all the supplers that if their part failed and the car needed a tow to get service, it was on their dime.
The cars quality improved overnight.
Personally I think Volkswagen should hold Bosch accountable.
(Remember my opinion)

Why do Brits drink warm beer?

Because Lucas makes refrigerators

ezshift5 · Mar 16, 2015

Smokin_Joe said:
I remember years ago Lucas used to supply all the electronics for the British made cars and they had a really flaky reputation................................
[/QUOTE

Good recall, Joe.......

Even a bumpersticker:

Why do the English like warm beer?

BECAUSE THEY HAVE LUCAS REFRIGERATORS!

ez

Smokin_Joe · Mar 16, 2015

lol
Have to remember that

Smokin_Joe · Mar 16, 2015

psrumors said:
Erosion control. We've looked at the various B series trucks and to get 4 wheel drive and crew cab is just cost prohibitive on our revenue. Plus the trucks just get too big to get in some of the places we must go.

I hear ya..
That would throw allot of dust around!
Do you have aftermarket air and fuel filtration designed for dusty environments? Do you change oil in: engine, tranny, diff's more often than spec'd?
My imagination is starting to run wild..lol
Don't want to hyjack the thread....so back on topic
I finally found and posted in the HPFP failure thread.
Later

Smokin_Joe · Mar 16, 2015

eb2143 said:
Edmunds' longterm Ram diesel just returned to fleet following what appears to be pump failure after the truck stalled in traffic. I believe the entire fuel system was replaced, under warranty, of course. Fuel was reported grossly okay, no misfuel immediately prior.

Unless you read something I didn't I can't agree with the above statement.
It said lots of things in the lead up. Removed fuel and replaced fuel tested fuel. Started up for the service technician and to "Stay Tuned"
Hasn't actually said what the problem is as far as I can see.
I don't believe the entire fuel system was replaced cause it didn't say what was done...yet.
http://www.edmunds.com/ram/1500/2014/long-term-road-test/
http://www.edmunds.com/ram/1500/201...1500-ecodiesel-abrupt-stall-while-moving.html

NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Top Post Dawg

Moderator at Large

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Top Post Dawg

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member