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Old December 3rd, 2010, 13:33   #61
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to be fair... the e46 m3 has a 3.2 that produces more than 300hp NA (not turbo)... give it up man its not up for debate. Gas power is further along than diesel right now as far as power output is concerned




ok well really that only strengthens MY point. if you read my post i explained that the emissions of diesel are worse for a given gallon, not for a given mile. the diesel wins, but you dont have to convince me, im on board. its the other 99% of the US.

Given post #54, it was never mine to give up in the first place
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 14:22   #62
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i dont think there is much argument against (in general) diesels get better mileage.
diesel itself produces higher BTU that gasoline. thus for a given vehicle will use less fuel to move.

I think much of the disconnect with diesels is the confusion about emissions and "global warming." Diesel has a higher carbon dioxide output per mile than gasoline. (22lbs per gallon vs 19.5 roughly) That argument doesnt hold up to me, as i see i dont burn gallons per commute, rather i drive miles per commute. If i was to drive a 60 mile commute in my diesel i would produce something shy of 30 lbs of carbon dioxide, whereas in a comparable(performance and option/size etc)gasser i would probably produce closer to 40lbs.

however the two thought trains are generally not combine. Hyper-milers almost never break there mileage down by carbon units/mile, while the "save the earth" community frequently point to the fact that a gallon of diesel produces a larger carbon footprint as compared to a gallon of gasoline.

but to digress back to the main topic, porsche's demographic is likely not concerned with emission, mileage, or their personal carbon footprint. and a 1.9 liter diesel engine will never produce the same kind of power that a 1.9 liter gasser will, and thus it is not suitable for most sports cars in the eyes of the vast majority.
Ben dur's post makes real sense, and it deserves reiteration to emphasize the importance of the distinction:
The amount of Carbon dioxide emitted per volume of fuel (diesel versus gasoline) is different. One correct way to state the difference:

The complete combustion of gasoline (no Carbon Monoxide- complete oxidation to CO2 and water) results in 12.6% less carbon dioxide production. Here are data from one source-

CO2 emissions from a gallon of gasoline = 2,421 grams x 0.99 x (44/12) = 8,788 grams = 8.8 kg/gallon = 19.4 pounds/gallon
CO2 emissions from a gallon of diesel = 2,778 grams x 0.99 x (44/12) = 10,084 grams = 10.1 kg/gallon = 22.2 pounds/gallon

So, 19.9 is 12.6% less than 22.2 (that much is a simple fact). Can you hear the spin? ... "diesel engines produce more greenhouse gas than gasoline engines"

But, there are two additional things to consider.

1. The first and simplest is that Diesel engines generally produce greater than 12.6% more DISTANCE or miles per gallon (liters/km) than gasoline engines. In fact, if you believe some of the claims around here.. OK, we won't go there

But apples to apples comparisons (cars with similar displacement) reveal that diesel cars get anywhere from 20 to 25% farther per gallon (point made by Ben dur, and others). You can start arguing about torque versus horse power now if you want to, but...

The point is that the actual amount of CO2 emissions is at worse, on parity, but more likely to be lower in real world cause and effect... "driving from here to there" Diesel vehicles contribute less carbon dioxide to the atmosphere than gasoline vehicles.

2. The second thing to consider, which is less important than the first additional consideration, is the question of how efficient (or complete) is the combustion in the engine? That is, how much additional combustion is completed by the catalyst (which is essentially there to take CO to CO2). The answer to this is how diesel engines are inherently more efficient than gasoline engines, and isn't important to the about facts.

But Porsche buyers are not Volkswagen buyers. Porsche is now bona fide boutique, and Money is often seeking prestige AND raw power. Faster gasoline engines beat not faster Turbo diesel in a straight line. But diesel has advantages mid corner due to tractable stable torque that does NOT spin out. I pass V8s handily everyday, with high confidence, in my li'l Volkswagen.
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Last edited by dubStrom; December 3rd, 2010 at 19:09.
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 19:47   #63
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Originally Posted by TDIMeister View Post
That's not what the underlined says.

yeah your right... let me put my foot in my mouth for a second

gasoline 19lbs/gallon
diesel 22lbs/gallon

mixed the words up... the underlined word should read "gallon" not mile...
i apologize, my proof reading skills have failed me
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 19:54   #64
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^ and thus alot of the confusion to normal consumers.

look. im arguing for diesel and i cant get the facts straight (or rather i mix up my words.) how can we expect teen girls with their cellphone stuck to their face to understand the argument?

my point is, porsche isnt very invested in the diesel game because it doesnt fit their marketing agenda. (speed, power, and the ever growing need to please the ill-educated environmentalists)
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 20:56   #65
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I think Diesel is a consummately good fit for an SUV, regardless of the nameplate that adorns the vehicle. That said, I'm completely baffled that Porsche would put the same V6 Diesel engine in the Cayenne that is shared with platform twins the VW Touareg and Audi Q7. Porsche can further differentiate the Cayenne (and afford to price it accordingly) with the Group's 4.2 V8 TDI. Ditto plans to put a Diesel engine in the Panamera. The people who buy a Porsche don't buy one because they really care about the cost or because it gets fabulous fuel economy. They buy one for the unadulterated status symbol and performance that a Porsche affords them. Absolutely baffling.

The calculus involved in deciding whether to build a Boxer-6 Diesel is far more complex than we armchair automotive CEOs are qualified to perform. As an engineer who designs engines, there is no technical reason why a such an engine cannot be made and be a very good one at that. In fact it would not surprise me one bit that prototypes have been built and shown to executives. But there has to be a business case and a fit to the product and, whether we like the decision or not, the powers at be in Zuffenhausen and Wolfsburg don't believe there is, or at least that's what we know based on our "you're-on-a-need-to-know-basis-and-you-don't-to-know".

Although I don't like SUVs personally, a BMW X6 35d or 5-series GT x35d would be closest to my future if ever offered here, but more realistically I'm waiting for a 335xd Touring.
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Old December 4th, 2010, 07:19   #66
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I think Diesel is a consummately good fit for an SUV, regardless of the nameplate that adorns the vehicle. That said, I'm completely baffled that Porsche would put the same V6 Diesel engine in the Cayenne that is shared with platform twins the VW Touareg and Audi Q7. Porsche can further differentiate the Cayenne (and afford to price it accordingly) with the Group's 4.2 V8 TDI. Ditto plans to put a Diesel engine in the Panamera. The people who buy a Porsche don't buy one because they really care about the cost or because it gets fabulous fuel economy. They buy one for the unadulterated status symbol and performance that a Porsche affords them. Absolutely baffling.

The calculus involved in deciding whether to build a Boxer-6 Diesel is far more complex than we armchair automotive CEOs are qualified to perform. As an engineer who designs engines, there is no technical reason why a such an engine cannot be made and be a very good one at that. In fact it would not surprise me one bit that prototypes have been built and shown to executives. But there has to be a business case and a fit to the product and, whether we like the decision or not, the powers at be in Zuffenhausen and Wolfsburg don't believe there is, or at least that's what we know based on our "you're-on-a-need-to-know-basis-and-you-don't-to-know".

Although I don't like SUVs personally, a BMW X6 35d or 5-series GT x35d would be closest to my future if ever offered here, but more realistically I'm waiting for a 335xd Touring.
Subaru's Boxer diesel is very popular in Europe. I have read that it is very compact but still provides that low center of gravity that cars like the 911 have. There are many youtube videos of them plowing through a foot of snow. It seems to be the ideal geometry for performance, and a twin turbo diesel flat six could be astonishingly torquey. We own a Subaru wagon. It drives like a slot car with very little sway, and breezes through snow and ice. I was hopeful about the boxer diesel and was ready to buy one, but Subaru backed out. A mid-engine rear wheel drive diesel would be a blast.

And with the extra torque, you could spend a little more weight in suspension and add a few more gadgets to sell it. They could downplay the economy, and just brag about the enormous torque and speed. It is kind of surprising that it is not available in diesel-savvy Europe.

But VWs concept R is a mid-engine sports car, and it is powered with gasoline. Oddly, it also has the DSG. That is a strange combination for a sports car. The current setup has V6 gasser. I wonder where that engine came from. If they engineered it specifically for this application, then obviously they ruled out diesel, or a boxer (4 or 6). They could conceivably install a V6 TDI, since they all ready make them.
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Old December 4th, 2010, 11:07   #67
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Porsche has gone down the Turbo route since about 1973 I think with the first roadgoing 911 Turbo.

US sales of diesels are endangered by the current and latest crop of turbos appearing in such cars as Fords. Ford stopped the F150 going diesel in the US in favor of the Ecoboost V6. However Ford still builds the engine for Range Rover's use elsewhere.

I seriously beginning to doubt diesel's viability in the US given the improvement in economy that turbo gas engines. The day we see a Hybrid Volt/Prius like vehicle with a turbo gas engine, diesels may go like dinosaurs.

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Old December 4th, 2010, 11:41   #68
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Porsche has gone down the Turbo route since about 1973 I think with the first roadgoing 911 Turbo.

US sales of diesels are endangered by the current and latest crop of turbos appearing in such cars as Fords. Ford stopped the F150 going diesel in the US in favor of the Ecoboost V6. However Ford still builds the engine for Range Rover's use elsewhere.

I seriously beginning to doubt diesel's viability in the US given the improvement in economy that turbo gas engines. The day we see a Hybrid Volt/Prius like vehicle with a turbo gas engine, diesels may go like dinosaurs.
I think that really depends on what you mean. Non viability has ALWAYS been the policy. If you just look at the percentage of US diesel passenger cars, what is "viable" about a one half of one percent or 1.27 M diesel vehicle fleet? )254.4 M vehicles? Most diesels are (not so light) light trucks. You don't need me to tell you there are different standards for not so light, light trucks. So the total diesels are 2% of the population or 5.088 M. So as you can see they have done a real good job keeping passenger diesel CARS NON viable.

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Old December 4th, 2010, 15:58   #69
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Most people on the forums here really are not buying porsche, ferrari, lambo.. most people on here are buying vw with a diesel engine, the good old days of cheap gas and big v8 motors are gone. When gas reaches $4 gallon again people will continue to look for more efficient ways to get around. Most americans will realize that diesel does not equal smelly and dirty. If we can get cleaner diesel fuel then other car makers can enter the market that is pretty much dominated by vw in small duty vehicles. We should all be driving diesels, natural gas and electric cars, better for the environment all around. I was very happy to see my friends new golf that does not smoke, well maybe 10% but that is pretty good that it captures 90% of the smoke. Anyways.. just my 2 cents.. go diesels.
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Old December 4th, 2010, 21:48   #70
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Old December 5th, 2010, 08:06   #71
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Although it's not surprising to see this reaction, don't get carried away.

Porsche still puts on the street a 3.6 liter, 620 horsepower, 205 mile per hour projectile that weighs less than a Jetta, Beetle or 4dr TDI Golf.

And though it is true that a Cayenne is not a Porsche keeping with tradition, neither is the VW Tourag, Passat or Phaeton. Volkswagon probably doesn't even make a vehicle that could even arguably be described as "People's Car" anymore.

Porsche however still makes a Sportscar, and there is still no substitute.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 06:54   #72
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Here's the simple reason that Porsche is using the 3.0 V6 TDI, rather than the 4.2 V8...

They know the 3.0 V6 will sell quite well, and it'll bring down their fleet CO2 further than the 4.2 V8 would, both by the fact that it'll sell better, and it'll emit less CO2 than the V8.

Of course, they could go Aston Martin's way... rebadge a Toyota iQ, put leather all over the interior, and try to sell one to every Aston Martin owner to reduce the fleet CO2. They could do the same with a Lupo, and it would be ugly as hell, but it would work...
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Old December 6th, 2010, 07:11   #73
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AFAIK, Porsche under VW Group ownership doesn't stand alone to meet CAFE requirements alone, but as a group. Porsche/VW's strategy should be to distinguish and not to dilute the performance and image of Porsche products with basically badge-engineered platform twins that are the Cayenne, Q7 and Touareg and give the same engines with not one HP more.

Sometimes you just need to forget CO2, look at the bigger picture and be a little creative. CAFE can be met by Dieselizing more existing models, bringing-in smaller models and Bluemotion variants already available in other markets.

Heck, put a 2-stage turbocharger system into the V6 TDI so that it would have a remote chance of competing performance-wise to BMW's x35d engine that's already available in North America!

Edit: Today, in Germany and elsewhere, you can buy a Touareg 4.2 V8 TDI and you can buy an Audi Q7 6.0 V12 TDI. But if you want to a Diesel Porsche Cayenne, you have no other choice than the 3.0 V6.

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Old December 6th, 2010, 07:12   #74
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Here's the simple reason that Porsche is using the 3.0 V6 TDI, rather than the 4.2 V8...

They know the 3.0 V6 will sell quite well, and it'll bring down their fleet CO2 further than the 4.2 V8 would, both by the fact that it'll sell better, and it'll emit less CO2 than the V8.

Of course, they could go Aston Martin's way... rebadge a Toyota iQ, put leather all over the interior, and try to sell one to every Aston Martin owner to reduce the fleet CO2. They could do the same with a Lupo, and it would be ugly as hell, but it would work...

Yes a LUPO! LOL
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Old December 6th, 2010, 07:22   #75
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Although it's not surprising to see this reaction, don't get carried away.

Porsche still puts on the street a 3.6 liter, 620 horsepower, 205 mile per hour projectile that weighs less than a Jetta, Beetle or 4dr TDI Golf.

And though it is true that a Cayenne is not a Porsche keeping with tradition, neither is the VW Tourag, Passat or Phaeton. Volkswagon probably doesn't even make a vehicle that could even arguably be described as "People's Car" anymore.

Porsche however still makes a Sportscar, and there is still no substitute.
@ upwards of $132,000 (the "wimpy" 500 hp/480# ft of torque's MSRP on edmunds.com), just that alone will guarantee HUGE numbers and percentages will FLY off the Porsche dealers showroom floor?

Yes and I for one am glad it has arguably "evolved" from the early "people's car". My 1970 VW Beetle was a rocket ship in comparison to the late 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's MY's Beetle's (I now shudder to remember)

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