Water Pump Failure

I was cruising down the highway at 65mph when the engine quit. Over about a second it went down to 0 RPM, it wasn't a sudden bang or shudder, it smoothly went to no power. It then came back to cruising power for a two or three seconds, and then same thing, smoothly shut down. So I turned the key off and immediately pulled over to a pull out, and then saw the coolant temp in the red. I then popped the hood and TB cover and took this pic:



There was an Mk4 Golf in the same pullout, thought maybe a homeless guy, was full of stuff and a huge roof cargo carrier. I pushed my car to the back of the pullout and checked cell service, none. He hopped out and chatted, saw my TB... We chatted about my mods, how I liked the 11mm pump, and his Kerma 130hp package, and how he had 300k miles without problems, the mods done so long ago he couldn't remember them... He lent me his phone while I called a tow. WP has 30k miles on it, 2 years. Not happy. I took the TB off tonight and the WP is rock solid, will remove it tomorrow.

So, is a TB failure smooth, or is it sudden? Loud? Kaboom? I'll take the head off to make sure that if anything is broken it is fixed, but do the pistons chew through the valves real easily, or make a bad noise? I guess it depends on the weight of the car, the grip of the tires, and the strength of the TB to just mash the pistons into the valves. Otherwise the valves would lock up the tires in their tracks and you would screech to a halt.
Good thing I have that junkyard head laying around, hopefully I won't need rods or pistons

Same thing happened to the Water Pump on the ALH engine in my Vanagon. The WP locked up at 50k miles. I was making a run into town (15 miles). About three miles short of my destiny I pulled off the main road to drop a friend off at a garage so he could pick up his vehicle. Just as I pulled off the main road was when I heard the event and when the low coolant light came on. ............ long story short, my TB did not jump time. I installed a new TB kit and the engine was fine. That was May, 2017.

Considering your engine shut-down, I suspect the TB jumped time. So, all four exhaust valves were trashed, likely rods bent and pistons were damaged. Sorry to be so realistic, but I do believe that's the bottom line. I cannot imagine it being any other way considering you were cruising at 65 MPH when the event occurred.

Below is a pic very similar to yours..

Sorry to hear this. Do you remember what water pump you used?

It seems its becoming more common for the water pumps to fail well before the 80k-100k timing belt replacement interval? Is this a sign that the manufactures are taking shortcuts and using extreme cost cutting measures during the manufacturing of the water pumps?

I'll have to dig it out of the junk pile to see what brand name.... OP needs to do the same when he breaks down his engine.

Please do for all of us. I love hepu and hope both of the failed ones in this thread aren't hepu...otherwise I'll have to park one and wait for parts.

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Almost every TB (almost always caused by some other component) failure I've read of has been a relatively "smooth" shutdown as you describe. Bending the rods/damaging the Pistons is rather rare, but easy to check out of course.
Do you know where the WP and/or kit parts were sourced from??
Sorry to hear of the "event". It would never be a pleasant occurance to experience.

Other than 'kiss' marks your pistons and rods should survive but check protrusion.
Exhaust and maybe intake valves and lifters will have taken the brunt of the damage.

Cleenlivin said:

Sorry to hear this. Do you remember what water pump you used?

It seems its becoming more common for the water pumps to fail well before the 80k-100k timing belt replacement interval? Is this a sign that the manufactures are taking shortcuts and using extreme cost cutting measures during the manufacturing of the water pumps?

Click to expand...

I'd bet it was a Geba.


http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=479252

I used a pretty non-name brand of water pump, metal impeller, was pretty broke at the time and I will definitely buy something better this time. The problem I have is that even the Conti and such brands only have a two year warranty. Does that mean to have peace of mind I need to change the pump every two years?

The belt and components are Gates.

I can definitely pull the head and put on another that I have, and I can conjure up the means to measure protrusion.
What are the limits for protrusion differences?
Anyone have a good source for rods and pistons?
Is there a chance the crank is not reusable and what is the way to tell?

I know that broken lifters are an obvious sign of damage on the outside but is there anything else to look at without pulling the head? I guess there's leakdown and compression tests but I dont really want to turn anything.

I'd Pull the valve cover and look at the lifters and see what it looked like if it were mine...

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So the smooth loss of power is the IP slipping?

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What's the deal with TB's that note 'before engine 500,000' and 'from engine 500,001'?
Are those the regular 60k mile belts and the 100k mile belts?

jackfolstam said:

I used a pretty non-name brand of water pump, metal impeller, was pretty broke at the time and I will definitely buy something better this time. The problem I have is that even the Conti and such brands only have a two year warranty. Does that mean to have peace of mind I need to change the pump every two years?
The belt and components are Gates.
I can definitely pull the head and put on another that I have, and I can conjure up the means to measure protrusion.
What are the limits for protrusion differences?
Anyone have a good source for rods and pistons?
Is there a chance the crank is not reusable and what is the way to tell?
I know that broken lifters are an obvious sign of damage on the outside but is there anything else to look at without pulling the head? I guess there's leakdown and compression tests but I dont really want to turn anything.

Click to expand...

Your situation is one where the head should come off for inspection. No more turning.
Don't worry too much about the bottom end as those components are very robust.
You are looking for the slightest sign of piston to valve contact.
Any contact means replace that valve and lifter. The cam will be suspect so inspect.
If you are sure that your spare head is from a good engine then you can refresh that.
According to the Bentley manual, it's not a good idea to regrind the valves, only lap.
Consider sending the spare head to Franko6's shop for an evaluation or a local shop
if there is one near you that you trust. It would be smart to have it looked at by
someone who knows about them before you go to all the trouble to install it.
Read up on the piston protrusion values and head gasket matching and so on.

jackfolstam said:

What's the deal with TB's that note 'before engine 500,000' and 'from engine 500,001'?
Are those the regular 60k mile belts and the 100k mile belts?

Click to expand...

As far as fitment, the belts for an ALH are all the same.

Just buy the 100k mile belt. Shop the vendors that support this community. There items will identify the belt. I doubt you can find a 60k mile anywhere now days.

jackfolstam said:

I used a pretty non-name brand of water pump, metal impeller, was pretty broke at the time and I will definitely buy something better this time. The problem I have is that even the Conti and such brands only have a two year warranty. Does that mean to have peace of mind I need to change the pump every two .

Click to expand...

The thing with a warranty is they will give you a replacement pump but not replace your trashed engine. The TB isn't one area to ever skim on cash and honestly parts with coolant are close to 300 so the few $ saved really is hard to justify.

Send the head to Frank once the piston measurement is verified ok or get a used engine for about the same cost as the head redo. If an engine ran when pulled there is a good chance it is still good to use. Past history isn't as big of a deal unless the timing belt blew. Put an engine with 250k into the Jetta that blew the belt and cracked the pistons as well. Brother had it and was at 80k doing the belt that weekend on a bew.

Best of luck.



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coalminer16 said:

The thing with a warranty is they will give you a replacement pump but not replace your trashed engine. The TB isn't one area to ever skim on cash and honestly parts with coolant are close to 300 so the few $ saved really is hard to justify.

Send the head to Frank once the piston measurement is verified ok or get a used engine for about the same cost as the head redo. If an engine ran when pulled there is a good chance it is still good to use. Past history isn't as big of a deal unless the timing belt blew. Put an engine with 250k into the Jetta that blew the belt and cracked the pistons as well. Brother had it and was at 80k doing the belt that weekend on a bew.

Best of luck.



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Click to expand...

He already has an spare used head (condition perhaps unknown).
But, yes, never ever skimp on the TB components. Trusted vendors only. This very example shows why.

jettawreck said:

He already has an spare used head (condition perhaps unknown).
But, yes, never ever skimp on the TB components. Trusted vendors only. This very example shows why.

Click to expand...

This is why I only use hepu water pumps

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Water Pump Brands....

I just did my timing belt on an 04’ PD BEW using a kit from a trusted vendor that included a Geba water pump. I’m beginning to wonder if due to the age of these cars, the water pump manufactures like Graf, Hepu and Geba are starting to put out junk pumps?

Maybe a new or remanufactured VW OEM water pump is the way to go? Pricey but maybe worth it.

flee said:

Your situation is one where the head should come off for inspection. No more turning.
Don't worry too much about the bottom end as those components are very robust.
You are looking for the slightest sign of piston to valve contact.
Any contact means replace that valve and lifter. The cam will be suspect so inspect.
If you are sure that your spare head is from a good engine then you can refresh that.
According to the Bentley manual, it's not a good idea to regrind the valves, only lap.
Consider sending the spare head to Franko6's shop for an evaluation or a local shop
if there is one near you that you trust. It would be smart to have it looked at by
someone who knows about them before you go to all the trouble to install it.
Read up on the piston protrusion values and head gasket matching and so on.

Click to expand...

I agree that the head must come off.
I'll not worry about the crank but will measure piston protrusion with a dial indicator and a magnetic base.
I'll hand lap the valves myself.
I'll take it to a local shop to see if it's flat and to maybe do the guides.
When I first put this engine in I measured the protrusion to be just barely in the specs for a 1 notch when it came with a 2 notch on it. I don't think I've ever seen a factory build that wasn't a 2 notch.


For piston protrusion what are the limits for differences between each piston? +-0.01mm? +-0.02mm?

The one on the right here shows up kind of suspect in the pic but it doesn't look bad in person.

coalminer16 said:

The thing with a warranty is they will give you a replacement pump but not replace your trashed engine. The TB isn't one area to ever skim on cash and honestly parts with coolant are close to 300 so the few $ saved really is hard to justify.

Click to expand...

What I mean is can the pump be trusted beyond the warranty period? There's no way I'm putting 100k miles on my car in 2 years, the length of the longest warranty.

Did you set the engine on TDC to see how bad out of time it was? With the crankshaft on TDC, the Cam (and IP) should have been three or four teeth slow in time.

Since Timing Belt jumping time will be at the crankshaft (actually crankshaft cog "spinning" in the TB), the Exhaust Valves will be the ones that got hit by the pistons. Remember, on the exhaust stroke, the piston is chasing the exhaust valve as it shuts closed at TDC.... so, it only takes about three teeth out of time for the contact. And, as soon as the TB was out 1 tooth, engine performance is negatively affected (late Injection Pump timing) immediately and with the next tooth out of time the engine probably stumbled until it died.

Point is after a few rotations, all the exhaust valves were smacked by the pistons.

I seriously doubt that the crankshaft suffered any damage. Hopefully, the pistons are fine and no rods were bent.

AndyBees said:

Did you set the engine on TDC to see how bad out of time it was? With the crankshaft on TDC, the Cam (and IP) should have been three or four teeth slow in time.

Since Timing Belt jumping time will be at the crankshaft (actually crankshaft cog "spinning" in the TB), the Exhaust Valves will be the ones that got hit by the pistons. Remember, on the exhaust stroke, the piston is chasing the exhaust valve as it shuts closed at TDC.... so, it only takes about three teeth out of time for the contact. And, as soon as the TB was out 1 tooth, engine performance is negatively affected (late Injection Pump timing) immediately and with the next tooth out of time the engine probably stumbled until it died.

Point is after a few rotations, all the exhaust valves were smacked by the pistons.

I seriously doubt that the crankshaft suffered any damage. Hopefully, the pistons are fine and no rods were bent.

Click to expand...

Which way does the engine rotate relative to the view of looking at the timing belt? The cam, IP, and crank were all a little to the left of TDC when standing at the passenger fender. But if it takes only three teeth, I can't tell if things were still that closely in time.

The engine rotates Clockwise toward the front of the car. To be clear, it rotates the same direction the wheels do on the right side of the vehicle when it is moving forward. The other side is rotating toward the front but from that view it is counterclockwise.

Considering your engine experienced a locked-up water pump, then quit running, I suspect the Crankshaft (flywheel) is advanced in timing by a minimum of three teeth on the timing belt.

The piston tops should show which valves made contact. Any contact = replacement.

flee said:

The piston tops should show which valves made contact. Any contact = replacement.

Click to expand...

That makes sense, I've seen where valves were 'kissing' pistons in an idi and it was obvious. Should pistons be replaced no matter how much contact? I understand for valves that yes, any contact is bad and should be replaced. I'm not so sure about guides and pistons though, but I'll use the other cylinder head if there's obvious damage.

So what about protrusion limits/difference between cylinders? I'm guessing a bent rod is so bent that the difference between rods is greater than the HG thicknesses. The next question then is can I buy one new rod, and will balance matter between the other rods/pistons.

I should have said 'any contact = valve + lifter replacement'.
The piston(s) should be fine unless a head came off a valve.
You should read up on the protrusion measurement and the acceptable values.
There is a procedure explaining where on the piston to make the measurements, etc.

Ok thanks flee, I'll review the Bentley.

So I was thinking that if you took the camshaft out, could a leakdown test be done without having to turn anything, which would then tell you if a valve is bent? Or do you need to turn the crank to get pistons/rings in specific places?

You cannot identify if a valve is bent accurately enough without removing them. IF there is stem damage, which cannot be seen with them in the head, everything MAY appear to be just fine for 10,000 miles or so at which point a mushroom snaps off, drops into the cylinder and totals the engine.

You choose but that's what you're playing with if you don't pull the head.

Unlike many other engines these valves are parallel to the bore so there is
no lateral bending if they hit a piston, just compression of the valve stem.

For the love of God, what brand water pump?

And even though the bores are parallel, there can still be lateral bending...seen it first hand on an 02 auto...but usually they just swell the stem and stick slightly open...I've got a trophy from that build, had to cut the mushroom off and drug the stem, guide retainer and lifter all joined as one cool shelf piece.

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