ALH TDI Decarbonization...Any effect on MPG's?

josh8loop · Aug 21, 2011

Fellas,

I just wanted to show you all what I have been up to lately. I ended up decarbonizing my engine with water vapor mist. I used a fine mist water sprayer to do mine-a pond fogger would be very ideal for this. Since a picture is worth a thousand words, I thought a video would be even better!:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ugn8TI0TMio

This is the second time I ran water vapor through my intake. The first time I did it, I used around 8-10 ounces of water. The second time(in this video) I ran a total of about 17oz of water through the intake. My car has around 162K miles on it with original injectors. The car idles, and runs smoother than it did pre-decarbonization. Actually seems like it may have removed some carbon buildup from around the injectors like I experienced before when I removed and cleaned the injectors-of course this time it was done without taking them out!

...

josh8loop · Aug 21, 2011

Looks like another guy did this with his diesel engine too

Link no longer works

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dieselfuel · Aug 21, 2011

Cool. Probably best to use distilled water.

Good job, Josh!

dieselfuel · Aug 21, 2011

Just a thought: what about using a cold water vaporizer...?

Seatman · Aug 21, 2011

So what does the water actually do? Does it make the combustion hotter or something?

Bob_Fout · Aug 21, 2011

Seatman said:
So what does the water actually do? Does it make the combustion hotter or something?

Steam cleaning IIRC.

josh8loop · Aug 22, 2011

Bob_Fout said:
Steam cleaning IIRC.

Oh yah..only steam cleaning-No water for fuel here!!

..

josh8loop · Aug 22, 2011

dieselfuel said:
Cool. Probably best to use distilled water.

Good job, Josh!

Right, distilled or reverse osmosis water would be the best candidates. Did you end up seeing the other video where the guy used a pond fogger? It's basically a cold water vaporizer. Still surprised at how much smoother the engine runs. Amazing! I'm also wondering if it's able to clean the turbo and vanes on the way out too?

JDub8 · Aug 22, 2011

I dont have access to youtube at work but am I the only one thinking of hydro lock?

dieselfuel · Aug 22, 2011

josh8loop said:
Right, distilled or reverse osmosis water would be the best candidates. Did you end up seeing the other video where the guy used a pond fogger? It's basically a cold water vaporizer. Still surprised at how much smoother the engine runs. Amazing! I'm also wondering if it's able to clean the turbo and vanes on the way out too?

Josh,

Yes. But what is a pond fogger...?

Anyhow,thanks for taking one for the team! I just finished doing a cleaning myself.

Everyone,

I used a spray bottle distilled water. I used about 15-16 oz. in about a 20-25 time period. Then I took it out for a little drive at 4000 rpm in 1st and 2nd gears, then cruised at 2000-2500 rpm the rest of the time.

Also, I never turned off the motor, start to finish. After spraying the distilled water, I got in my Jetta and went for a ride. Leaving the engine running start to finish.

And, my engine was at full operating temp when I started. I had been on the hwy for 20-25 miles.

Anyone wanting to try this, I recommend starting with an engine at full operating temp and not shutting down the engine til after you are finished spraying the fine mist of water and then coming back from a couple of miles drive.

Also, this procedure was done on an ALH engine. I have no idea if it'll work on othe rTDI engines.

DISCLAIMER: You're a big boy(or girl!). You make all your own decisions. If you ruin your engine doing this, don't come crying to me. You are responsible for your own actions.

Good luck and happy motoring!

df

dieselfuel · Aug 22, 2011

Jdub8,

You are only using a fine mist. That fine mist hits the combustion chamber and turns to steam.

The key is to use a mist of water, not a stream of water.

So, don't stick your garden hose into your intake and turn the water on! :>)

josh8loop · Aug 22, 2011

dieselfuel said:
Josh,

Yes. But what is a pond fogger...?

Anyhow,thanks for taking one for the team! I just finished doing a cleaning myself.

Everyone,

I used a spray bottle distilled water. I used about 15-16 oz. in about a 20-25 time period. Then I took it out for a little drive at 4000 rpm in 1st and 2nd gears, then cruised at 2000-2500 rpm the rest of the time.

Also, I never turned off the motor, start to finish. After spraying the distilled water, I got in my Jetta and went for a ride. Leaving the engine running start to finish.

And, my engine was at full operating temp when I started. I had been on the hwy for 20-25 miles.

Anyone wanting to try this, I recommend starting with an engine at full operating temp and not shutting down the engine til after you are finished spraying the fine mist of water and then coming back from a couple of miles drive.

Also, this procedure was done on an ALH engine. I have no idea if it'll work on othe rTDI engines.

DISCLAIMER: You're a big boy(or girl!). You make all your own decisions. If you ruin your engine doing this, don't come crying to me. You are responsible for your own actions.

Good luck and happy motoring!

df

DF,

A pond fogger is actually better described as an "Ultrasonic" pond fogger. They use them in aquariums and things like that. The fog they produce would be perfect for what we are doing here. They can be found at pet stores, and also on Ebay for pretty cheap.

I know you recently had your nozzles replaced and all so you may not see as much idle smoothing as I have noticed, but let us know your results anyhow. I am kinda curious if I'll see any MPG increases. Thanks for trying this, and posting your cautions/methodologies.

..

dieselfuel · Aug 22, 2011

It may have smoothed out a little bit, but I get a little vibration from what I believe to be my original DMF.

It could be the plecebo effect, but it did seem to have more power from a start, but a little less in the mid-range compared to before. I don't know if cleaning the carbon out could change the timing or not. Or, maybe the engine is getting more air now, than before. Later today, I'll re-check my timing. I had it set to 4 BTDC. I'll see if it's changed.

df

josh8loop · Aug 22, 2011

dieselfuel said:
It may have smoothed out a little bit, but I get a little vibration from what I believe to be my original DMF.

It could be the plecebo effect, but it did seem to have more power from a start, but a little less in the mid-range compared to before. I don't know if cleaning the carbon out could change the timing or not. Or, maybe the engine is getting more air now, than before. Later today, I'll re-check my timing. I had it set to 4 BTDC. I'll see if it's changed.

df

Perhaps do another round in a week or so. Perhaps it has cumulative benefits until it is all cleaned out. I'm really curious to see if it has the potential to help free stuck VNT vanes? Very worth while to do IMHO. Very cheap too!

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dieselfuel · Aug 22, 2011

Checked my timing: No change. No change of the IQ, although I did make a change and raised it back to 8. I have been going back and forth between 6 & 8. I think 8 works best for me. (I understand, a bigger turbo, and I'll need to lower the IQ setting).

Yeah, I'll give it another shot in a week or so.

Also, my Evans has been shipped. Should be here Wed. or Thurs.
YEEEE HAAAAWWWWW!

MayorDJQ · Aug 25, 2011

Wouldn't driving in the rain accomplish the same thing?

josh8loop · Aug 25, 2011

MayorDJQ said:
Wouldn't driving in the rain accomplish the same thing?

I don't believe so, unless you are sucking in fog/water vapor. All reports on the internet and youtube of decarbonization I found have been related to liquid phase water injection. Apparently theres something to very small liquid droplets(very fine mist/fog) entering the combustion chamber and experiencing a phase change that allows the cleaning to take place. Can't say I understand it, but that seems to be the recipe. BTW, the best candidates to notice an idle smoothing and other beneficial effects are those with higher mileage on their vehicles with old nozzles(80K plus) and no recent head/valve work that has been done. Also, a couple or a few "treatments" of at least 10 oz or so of distilled water misted/fogged into the intake has worked for me very well.

I see you have a 2010 model-I'm not sure how this might be implemented, but don't imagine it would be too different than on mine. Just make sure you don't have large liquid water amounts going through at one time. Fog/fine mist is crucial!

..

dieselfuel · Aug 25, 2011

MayorDJQ said:
Wouldn't driving in the rain accomplish the same thing?

No! And you wouldn't want water to get past the air filter and into the MAF and turbo.

MayorDJQ · Aug 25, 2011

dieselfuel said:
No! And you wouldn't want water to get past the air filter and into the MAF and turbo.

But spraying water mist into the intake is better? Gotcha.

josh8loop · Aug 25, 2011

MayorDJQ said:
But spraying water mist into the intake is better? Gotcha.

Well, yes because in my video I show the water mist/fog injected post MAF, post Turbo, and post intercooler. Basically right before the intake air charge enters the engine. Did you get a chance to watch the video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ugn8TI0TMio

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MayorDJQ · Aug 25, 2011

josh8loop said:
Well, yes because in my video I show the water mist/fog injected post MAF, post Turbo, and post intercooler. Basically right before the intake air charge enters the engine. Did you get a chance to watch the video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ugn8TI0TMio

..

Not yet. The internet police at work have youtube blocked.

dieselfuel · Aug 25, 2011

A mist into the intake will turn to steam when it enters into the hot combustion chamber/cylinder.

I woudn't even worry about de-carbonizing an engine if I had less than 50k miles on the engine.

josh8loop · Aug 25, 2011

dieselfuel said:
A mist into the intake will turn to steam when it enters into the hot combustion chamber/cylinder.

I woudn't even worry about de-carbonizing an engine if I had less than 50k miles on the engine.

I agree-Me neither ......thinking about it a little further.....me being so anal about maintnance I would dprobably do it every few oil changes-or devise an automatic system I can control from the comfort of the car while driving. That way it never gets bad in the first place.

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josh8loop · Aug 27, 2011

Update:

I haven't seen any MPG increases after doing this cleaning, but it hasn't hurt them either! This past tank full I ended up removing my fuel sender to check fuel line quick disconnect O rings, check fuel lines for restrictions, and to apply Hylomar sealant to various fuel sealing interfaces. I lost a bit of fuel in that process, and I had some idling time so that may have skewed my results. My idle smoothed out quite a bit, and the engine runs smoother in general so it's worth IMHO even if at first I haven't seen and MPG gains. Just thought I would share some early results

MayorDJQ · Aug 27, 2011

josh8loop said:
Update:

I haven't seen any MPG increases after doing this cleaning, but it hasn't hurt them either! This past tank full I ended up removing my fuel sender to check fuel line quick disconnect O rings, check fuel lines for restrictions, and to apply Hylomar sealant to various fuel sealing interfaces. I lost a bit of fuel in that process, and I had some idling time so that may have skewed my results. My idle smoothed out quite a bit, and the engine runs smoother in general so it's worth IMHO even if at first I haven't seen and MPG gains. Just thought I would share some early results

How many tanks have you run since the "cleaning"? Did you actually verify carbon clogging levels before & after the water mist?

Other than the sticky fuel sender check valve, I've never read of any TDI having clogging issues at the fuel pickup.

josh8loop · Aug 28, 2011

MayorDJQ said:
How many tanks have you run since the "cleaning"? Did you actually verify carbon clogging levels before & after the water mist?

Other than the sticky fuel sender check valve, I've never read of any TDI having clogging issues at the fuel pickup.

I have done one and a half tank since the first water mist decarbonization. I didn't necessarily verify carbon accumulation in the combustion chamber, although I fairly recently had my fuel injectors out and did certainly have small amounts of buildup on the tips, and in the area between the copper injector seal and the injector body. I have also in the past noticed carbon buildup on the glowplugs. I also know there are small amounts of carbon on the injecors, glowplugs, valves, and piston top to a certain extent.

I am basing the decarbonization theory on other information I have read and viewed from others who have done the process, and disassembled engines to view the results before and after. Seems like it's an old-timers trick from years past. I do know for a fact that it helped smooth out my idle(like having new balanced injectors) and the car accelerates smoother.

..

MayorDJQ · Aug 28, 2011

josh8loop said:
I have done one and a half tank since the first water mist decarbonization. I didn't necessarily verify carbon accumulation in the combustion chamber, although I fairly recently had my fuel injectors out and did certainly have small amounts of buildup on the tips, and in the area between the copper injector seal and the injector body. I have also in the past noticed carbon buildup on the glowplugs. I also know there are small amounts of carbon on the injecors, glowplugs, valves, and piston top to a certain extent.

I am basing the decarbonization theory on other information I have read and viewed from others who have done the process, and disassembled engines to view the results before and after. Seems like it's an old-timers trick from years past. I do know for a fact that it helped smooth out my idle(like having new balanced injectors) and the car accelerates smoother. ..

You could take the injectors and glow plugs out of an engine with 500 miles and there will be "carbon buildup" on them. Other than a good Italian tune-up, there's no way to avoid it.

The "problem area" with ALH engines is the EGR valve and intake manifold.

ocshaman · Aug 28, 2011

Water expands 1600x it's liquid size to steam. Same reason you don't want it
In your ip. WhenIot expands the area gets "shrapneled" and cleaned off. Thank goodness for water injection.

dieselfuel · Sep 3, 2011

Josh,

I'm going to give it another shot with the water mist. Probably Tuesday. I'll let you know how it goes.

Also, today I re-set my timing in adaption to 3 degrees btdc. Runs much better now, than when set to 4. Better power from the start. It was lacking when set to 4 and 5 btdc.
df

Yblocker · Sep 4, 2011

OK so I tried this on my 1Z powered '97 Passat, 200K miles. The previous owner had run veg oil, and I am still correcting some of the trouble caused by that. The car does run really well now, but I thought I would try the water mist as an experiment.

I misted about 12 ounces of water directly into the intake at idle, engine warmed up. The process took about ten minutes. I then drove it pretty hard. I noticed 2 things afterwards.

1) When I engage the clutch with no throttle up a slight incline, one cylinder (at least it sounded like one) would always "nail" until the car got moving. This sound is now gone.

2) The steady vibration I usually feel through the steering wheel is about 1/2 the intensity of what it was before the water treatment.

Power is the same. I'd call it a success.

ALH TDI Decarbonization...Any effect on MPG's?

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