Would a stick shift A4 TDI wagon be a good car for new teenage driver?

kjclow · Nov 17, 2017

Ok, I'll bite. What's better to hand over to 99% of teenage drivers? The one that's paid for.

FletchMan · Nov 17, 2017

Yes, kjclow, the sex thing got overplayed. I grew up on a farm in a farm community where most of the boys grew up operating and maintaining large diesel machinery. We've swapped motors out of trucks in the middle of a wheat field. My perspective of a boy versus girl is skewed. I realize many urban, liberal areas, being a teenage boy exposes you to nothing that a teenage girl doesn't. A teenage boy is just as clueless about mechanics as most others are in those areas. I regret that we went down that path and it certainly sidetracked us needlessly.

kjclow · Nov 17, 2017

Not sure my in-laws or other farm relatives ever swapped engines in the middle of the field, but I can see where it might have been necessary. My wife is a farm girl and she taught me how to drive a three on the tree when we were dating. 35 years later, we still try to have at least one manual tranny in the drive.

FletchMan · Nov 17, 2017

kjclow said:
Ok, I'll bite. What's better to hand over to 99% of teenage drivers? The one that's paid for.

The OP asked if he should seek out a stick, diesel MKIV for his teenage, newly licensed, daughter. To me the stick and even female part of it is not necessary to address. There are simply better cars for a large number of reasons. Finding/remembering diesel, starting a diesel in cold weather....to start with. Turbos/injection pumps alone is a great reason to make it not the best option. You know what else isn't great...a gas car with a turbo. I give up, though...can't battle fandom with logic.

FletchMan · Nov 17, 2017

kjclow said:
Not sure my in-laws or other farm relatives ever swapped engines in the middle of the field, but I can see where it might have been necessary. My wife is a farm girl and she taught me how to drive a three on the tree when we were dating. 35 years later, we still try to have at least one manual tranny in the drive.

I can answer the necessity part - about 1000 bushel of wheat on a truck with a spun rod bearing. The easiest, quickest answer was to bring the service pickup, with a new motor, to the fully loaded truck.

Yes, manual transmissions are an after thought to any farm girl and I'd be more likely to trust a farm girl with a VW than a city boy.

IndigoBlueWagon · Nov 17, 2017

I believe VW's dealer network is in part to blame for the brand's low reliability scores. I'd say that the biggest challenge our VW customers face is finding a way to get a problem accurately diagnosed and correctly repaired. Without the network of gurus that work on TDIs life would be pretty difficult for owners. I know that without the ones I work with some of our older TDIs would be gone a long time ago.

I spend no small percentage of my telephone time with customers telling them that they don't need a part, or that they shouldn't buy parts yet because they haven't determined what's wrong with their car. Last week I had a lengthy email exchange with a customer who was trying to decide what turbo to buy. After several messages back and forth I became pretty certain he didn't need a turbo at all, and was able to send him to a guru local to him for a definitive diagnosis. If he'd taken the car to the dealer you can imagine what probably would have happened.

FletchMan · Nov 17, 2017

IndigoBlueWagon said:
I believe VW's dealer network is in part to blame for the brand's low reliability scores. I'd say that the biggest challenge our VW customers face is finding a way to get a problem accurately diagnosed and correctly repaired. Without the network of gurus that work on TDIs life would be pretty difficult for owners. I know that without the ones I work with some of our older TDIs would be gone a long time ago.

I spend no small percentage of my telephone time with customers telling them that they don't need a part, or that they shouldn't buy parts yet because they haven't determined what's wrong with their car. Last week I had a lengthy email exchange with a customer who was trying to decide what turbo to buy. After several messages back and forth I became pretty certain he didn't need a turbo at all, and was able to send him to a guru local to him for a definitive diagnosis. If he'd taken the car to the dealer you can imagine what probably would have happened.

This is yet another argument for VWs not being a great kid car but I also realize I may, again, have a skewed perspective. My closest guru is 5 hours away. I've managed with just a single visit over the several hundred K I've put on my VWs. I've also used the dealer a couple times. That was a nightmare and an expensive one at that. The point it, when something goes wrong, this isn't something I trust everyone to fix. They are oddities in the car world - maybe more in my area than your areas. If you are a knowledgeable VW guy, you are looking at this far differently than anyone else.

kjclow · Nov 17, 2017

I've mostly serviced at the local dealers. Bounced around between the three of them until one got their head on straight and started hiring good people behind the counter and in the bays. It also helps that they are the closest of now four dealers in Charlotte. I n=know it's more expensive but the closest guru that appears to still be fixing cars is at least two hours. I also don't have the time or equipment to do the work myself.

FletchMan · Nov 17, 2017

kjclow said:
I've mostly serviced at the local dealers. Bounced around between the three of them until one got their head on straight and started hiring good people behind the counter and in the bays. It also helps that they are the closest of now four dealers in Charlotte. I n=know it's more expensive but the closest guru that appears to still be fixing cars is at least two hours. I also don't have the time or equipment to do the work myself.

If people would just be real about this discussion, this says it all. I'm in your boat. I used to do my own work out of necessity as I had more time than money. I'm not not flush with cash but I can pay to have things done now. I don't want to work on this stuff anymore. I have better things to do.

That said, my VW days are winding down because if you don't work on these things yourself, they are money losers and especially as they compare to other cars. I don't think that is being considered here. So blasting out your spreadsheet where you are mostly ignoring labor costs is one thing. The true cost for almost everyone else is a far different story. If you or your teen is going to do all or most of your own maintenance, you could make a better case for the car. If not, it's far easier and less expense to take your Camry somewhere...and can be almost anywhere.

Mechanics in general is just a different business than it used to be, too. It's 100 more complex than the old days.

need4speed · Nov 18, 2017

Two sons... two overheated TDI's. . .

They both knew they had leaks. (one at the plastic thermostat flange, the other in the middle of the outlet hose where it rubs against that rubber block that keeps it out of the fans). I nagged them both endlessly to get it fixed. They both drove anyway. Eventually; overheat resulted, in both cases. In the first case it was a catstrophic seize-up during rush hour. In the second case, apparently just quietly blew the head gasket.

(You know you've "arrived" as a father, when your son runs the car out of diesel on the freeway in Chicago, in 20-degree weather, pushes it the last 1/4 mile to the gas station, calls you long distance, and you talk him through a fill-up, buying a 17-mm crescent wrench so he can crack the nut on the #3 injector to bleed it and get it to start).

(Just wish he had fixed that outlet flange. The part was like what; $20?; + $80 worth of fresh G12

).

I agree with the Camry idea; though the Toyota RAV4 was an awesome platform, because the kids sit up a bit higher, have better visibility, and can see where they're going better. And also a little better protected in collisions. Older RAV4's though are kind of in higher demand than camry sedans so they're a few hundred bucks more.

My daughter also overheated her RAV4, but that really wasn't her fault - the previous owner did a half-ass job on the TB, and didn't replace the water pump! That was my first head gasket replacement, and she got another 100k out of that truck before her dirtbag boyfriend "borrowed" it and wrecked it.

aja8888 · Nov 18, 2017

need4speed said:
Two sons... two overheated TDI's. . .

They both knew they had leaks. (one at the plastic thermostat flange, the other in the middle of the outlet hose where it rubs against that rubber block that keeps it out of the fans). I nagged them both endlessly to get it fixed. They both drove anyway. Eventually; overheat resulted, in both cases. In the first case it was a catstrophic seize-up during rush hour. In the second case, apparently just quietly blew the head gasket.

(You know you've "arrived" as a father, when your son runs the car out of diesel on the freeway in Chicago, in 20-degree weather, pushes it the last 1/4 mile to the gas station, calls you long distance, and you talk him through a fill-up, buying a 17-mm crescent wrench so he can crack the nut on the #3 injector to bleed it and get it to start).

(Just wish he had fixed that outlet flange. The part was like what; $20?; + $80 worth of fresh G12 ).

I agree with the Camry idea; though the Toyota RAV4 was an awesome platform, because the kids sit up a bit higher, have better visibility, and can see where they're going better. And also a little better protected in collisions. Older RAV4's though are kind of in higher demand than camry sedans so they're a few hundred bucks more.

My daughter also overheated her RAV4, but that really wasn't her fault - the previous owner did a half-ass job on the TB, and didn't replace the water pump! That was my first head gasket replacement, and she got another 100k out of that truck before her dirtbag boyfriend "borrowed" it and wrecked it.

One of my daughters went thru college on a 1998 4 cylinder Camry which got about 30 MPG overall. We paid about $4 K for that car. I did all the maintenance.

We gave the car to my step granddaughter when she was a junior in high school. She drove it until it had about 300,000 miles on it then she got a hand-me'down Hyundai Elantra when entering community college. Both cars served her well. Only one wreck with the Camry; she drove into the back of a stopped pick up and pushed in the nose. I bought a used nose from Pick-A-Part and had her back on the road in a couple of weeks. We sold the Camry for $1500 with a primered nose. That car was around for 6 years or so. Besides the nose and a timing belt change, all I recall doing to it was oil changes, a new starter motor, brakes and tires.

IndigoBlueWagon · Nov 18, 2017

need4speed said:
(You know you've "arrived" as a father, when your son runs the car out of diesel on the freeway in Chicago, in 20-degree weather, pushes it the last 1/4 mile to the gas station, calls you long distance, and you talk him through a fill-up, buying a 17-mm crescent wrench so he can crack the nut on the #3 injector to bleed it and get it to start).

Or when you get a call from your son in Wisconsin at 7 AM because he's just filled his TDI with unleaded after driving all night from Montana. Fortunately he was 98 miles from JasonTDI, AAA Plus is free for 100 miles, and Jason had him back on the road within an hour. Next time, don't assume that just because the pump handle is green, it's diesel. I found it amusing because he was driving cross country with two friends and I warned them repeatedly to make sure that the friends knew to make sure they were pumping diesel. Ironically, the one who had only owned a diesel car puts gas in it.

That '98 Jetta was a phenomenal car. It was my son's first car, he drove it for 11 years and 160K miles, and it always ran like a clock (assuming it had diesel in the tank). Rust finally took it out two years ago, and now he has an '02 Jetta.

dutch.mafia · Nov 18, 2017

Not to beat a dead horse, but here's my perspective.

I'm a 22 year old college student, male if it matters. I am on my fourth vehicle since I was 16 (all bought and sold by myself). The last 3 (including current) vehicles were all manual. By far this has been my favorite, and most reliable. I learned how to drive manual in my dad's prized Mustang (talk about being nervous to learn). I took my driver's test in the family commuter car (Subaru Legacy auto). I think it would have been too much "going on" and am glad I took it in an auto. However, I think it's a familiarity thing. It was towards the end of my temps that I started to learn to drive stick.

Another already mentioned topic is that "no one" can borrow it, because most people don't know how to drive stick. Numerous times in college I've been asked if someone could borrow it, and I would just respond its manual. 10/10 times they would say never mind. I think it's vital to learn.

I taught my girlfriend how in one lesson and she drove it home that day. She was very against learning but I told her she had to, just in case.

Tdijarhead · Nov 18, 2017

I first became really aware that a manual transmission was a good way to keep others from borrowing your car when I was perusing eBay.

I found a Cadillac sedan I don’t remember what but it was about an 02-04 nice looking vehicle with a manual transmission. It seems the seller had bought the car wrecked and fixed it for his daughter who was going to college. He wanted something large and heavy with lots of protection for her, and he didn’t want her friends borrowing it. She had graduated so it was up for sale.

Then there’s the car thief who stole a high end Ferrari and could only get about a block away before giving up and abandoning it.

aja8888 · Nov 18, 2017

I got my license on a manual. A 1951 Chevrolet four door sedan. Straight 6, three on the tree. Bought and paid for by me at 16 years old. Cost all of $35, but it needed work, and I fixed it up. There were not too many automatics around in 1961. All my friends and my two sisters drove manuals. There also was not much traffic.

Times are changing and, sad to say, manual transmissions are going the way of the horse and buggy. That goes even for very expensive race cars. I drove manual transmission VW TDI's here in Houston for the last 10 years. We have the worst traffic in the U.S. It took me 30 minutes to go to Walmart yesterday at 5:00 PM and it is ONE MILE from our house. I take the Hyundai Santa Fe for those runs.

I don't know anyone around here that wants to drive a manual or even has one. But I understand the good points of driving a manual. Heck, I drove my 2003 TDI Jetta 5 speed almost 4,000 miles to Connecticut and back to Texas last April. It was OK, but in heavy traffic on that trip, it sucked. I'll take a VW with a tune and a DSG any day.

Funguy · Nov 18, 2017

Driven M/T my whole life and so has my Dad. But now at 86 he feels more in control with his DSG.
My daughters learned to drive stick but I only let them use the auto's after that. The Auto is safer. Make a mistake crossing a busy hwy with the manual and it could be deadly. I wanted them to fully concentrate on what was going on around them. The one girl moved to the city and never drives. The other seems to drive very nicely.

Tdijarhead · Nov 19, 2017

I learned to drive a stick in LA traffic. Stop and go bumper to bumper and all that. I still drive a stick and probably will till I get to old to work those knobs and levers, it’s all a matter of choice, I tell my wife I’ll take up Golf when I get to old to run.

coalminer16 · Nov 19, 2017

Would I send my kids to an out of state College after just learning how to drive a vw diesel -no.
But at 15-16 they have a couple years left under my roof going to the nearest town for high school. So their car will be what I have at that time. But they WILL learn a stick or they won't get their license in my house. Along with if they want a car they need to know how to put fuel in, change a tire and do an oil change. Not asking for the world but I have seen people that didn't know how to do those 3 items.

Don't care about the gender deal. I have 3 daughters and one son. They all will learn certain skills equally. The two oldest are girls and school aged. They wanted to wrestle like their father so they are. They wanted to shoot guns so I am teaching them the safe way. I am not saying they have to learn a timing belt job. Just a few things and it is unfair to my family if they are stranded or not useful in a situation due to not knowing some skills like a stick shift.

When they go to college a camery or something may not be bad but that is far enough away that u have time to figure that out.

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ken2116 · Nov 19, 2017

Suggest the two stage process we used with sons and a daughter: Initial training with an AT until they get over initial nervousness and achieve basic competency. Switch to a MT and don't let them take their exam until they're skilled with parking brake starts on the steepest hill within 100mi. Keep them in low power cars until out of college. Our kids' sequence was 4cyl. Volvo (AT) and full size 6cyl. van with MT (our family cars) followed by a Saab 900 (MT) "kids car" which they absolutely loved - now all are in their 30's and drive MTs. A Jetta with MT would be ideal for driving but ground clearance is low so you may replace a lot of front bumpers if they don't learn how to avoid curbs, and fit a skid plate - we keep an sheet of corrugated polypropylene plastic (an old campaign sign) in our trunk to use as a "slip sheet" when our Jetta bumper hangs up. For more clearance consider a MT Subaru, or if you favor TDI maybe a Tiguan.

Nevada_TDI · Nov 19, 2017

They wanted to what?

coalminer16 said:
Would I send my kids to an out of state College after just learning how to drive a vw diesel -no.
But at 15-16 they have a couple years left under my roof going to the nearest town for high school. So their car will be what I have at that time. But they WILL learn a stick or they won't get their license in my house. Along with if they want a car they need to know how to put fuel in, change a tire and do an oil change. Not asking for the world but I have seen people that didn't know how to do those 3 items.

Don't care about the gender deal. I have 3 daughters and one son. They all will learn certain skills equally. The two oldest are girls and school aged. They wanted to wrestle like their father so they are. They wanted to shoot guys so I am teaching them the safe way. I am not saying they have to learn a timing belt job. Just a few things and it is unfair to my family if they are stranded or not useful in a situation due to not knowing some skills like a stick shift.

When they go to college a camery or something may not be bad but that is far enough away that u have time to figure that out.

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You must be a lawyer because no one teachers their daughters to shoot guys, the "safe way" and discusses it in an open forum. I do wonder what will happen if they have to shoot a girl at some point?

scooperhsd · Nov 19, 2017

I learned to drive a stick in Dad's '64 aircooled VW Bug that he drove to work. First car I bought was '64 full size Chevy with a 250 straight 6 and a 3 on the tree. Went through a few automatics while in college, but my graduation Vehicle was an 83 Ford Ranger - 2.8L V6 with 5 speed manual. Most all of my vehicle since then have been manuals, except when we bought the Beetle as an Automatic (swapped to 5 speed manual at 252,000 miles when it died) and the Golf (cause we wanted it NOW and not wait for a manual).

Norman · Nov 19, 2017

Nevada_TDI said:
You must be a lawyer because no one teachers their daughters to shoot guys, the "safe way" and discusses it in an open forum. I do wonder what will happen if they have to shoot a girl at some point?

Thought provoking, for sure..

Well, super late to this thread, but have some more data points to add to the pile; WRT the original query, any MT TDI would probably be a great car to teach a teenager to drive a stick on, though I would agree a wagon is maybe not my first choice. How about a first year NB? That should be about as cheap as they get. All that torque is the easiest way to learn clutch release points.

Anecdotally, I have two boys, now adults, who learned to drive on an NA Miata (first gen) w/ MT. I'd do it again if I had a do-over. The clutch on those cars are very light, very predictable, and the sight lines, especially with the top down, cannot be beat. From an insurance standpoint, the horsepower, safety , etc, considerations aren't as bad as one would think. After getting their licenses on the Miata, they can now proficiently drive everything from a Eurovan MT to a JSW DSG instinctively, so it was worth putting in the extra effort up front. 'Also taught their mom to drive an MT after she learned and got her license on an AT back in the day. It's really a shame not so many rental car agencies have sticks anymore, at least in this country. Rent-a-Wreck, FTW.

coalminer16 · Nov 19, 2017

Nevada_TDI said:
You must be a lawyer because no one teachers their daughters to shoot guys, the "safe way" and discusses it in an open forum. I do wonder what will happen if they have to shoot a girl at some point?

Thanks for catching the auto correct error.

As for 3 in the tree. Now that manual tranny is getting hard to find and learn. Brother had a very rusty red Chevy with some very bad linkage. Didn't take much and you were in 3rd rather then 1st and sometimes he had to go under the hood to undo the shift. Blew a rod out the side but I can say I drove one. Likely the last one.

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IndigoBlueWagon · Nov 19, 2017

When I was learning to drive my grandmother, who lived across the street from my family, had a mid-60s Rambler with a 3 speed column shifter. And non-synchro first. I didn't find it difficult to drive. The incredibly slow non-assisted steering took more adjustment.

However, I learned to drive stick on an Austin Healey Sprite. And usually drove our '71 VW Bus around, which had the vaguest shift linkage known to man. Our '66 Bus was easier to drive. After those cars most everything else was easy.

UhOh · Nov 19, 2017

IndigoBlueWagon said:
usually drove our '71 VW Bus around, which had the vaguest shift linkage known to man.

LOL! Yeah, one needed a map to find the next gear! My 58 Ford (long-bed, step side- ugliest truck known to man!) with a 283 chev engine and 3 spd on-the-floor PLUS a tire iron as shift lever (had to resort to the tire iron once when I busted off the shift lever- one has to um, make-shift in emergency situations

) felt more positive!

Funguy · Nov 19, 2017

IndigoBlueWagon said:
When I was learning to drive my grandmother, who lived across the street from my family, had a mid-60s Rambler with a 3 speed column shifter. And non-synchro first. I didn't find it difficult to drive. The incredibly slow non-assisted steering took more adjustment.

Dad had a '63 Rambler and he taught me the shift pattern and let me shift it. Didn't let me work the clutch though as I was pretty young. Last 3 speed I drove with that shift pattern was a 3 wheel cushman in the late 70s. Fun

FletchMan · Nov 20, 2017

It blows my mind that there are people that can't drive a manual transmission. I know this conversation has evolved to mostly about that but a transmission alone isn't a good reason to not get a vehicle to me...or eliminate one anyway.

There was a day when manual transmissions were much more reliable than an automatic. Many younger people today would never know that....unless you drive an MKIV with an automatic, then you'd understand. You know....the just as reliable as anything else VW. Man...what an awful transmission long after most companies had it figured out.

oilhammer · Nov 21, 2017

Hehe, they are still "figuring it out". And what is funny is, the American companies who you'd think would be best at it are often among the worst.

And just about when they have ironed out a basic design, they either change it which starts the teething process all over again, or go to a totally new design which is usually worse.

The only saving grace is that software changes can fix a lot of the issues, plus clever use of software (since all automatics are electronically controlled now) can help ease the things that harm automatics like hard shifts under load and heat. They can dip engine output during shifts, apply the converter clutch more often to eliminate excessive heat build up, etc.

The one that I get the biggest kick out of is the 6sp transverse slushbox that GM and Ford joint developed (yes, you read that right). I guess they bumped into one another at the Aisin store in Japan (because they were both using a similar version of an Aisin tranverse 6sp slushbox) and they said "hey, we should join forces!"

Dumb and Dumber in the automotive world. At least the Ford version has the TCM outside the transmission, so when you replace those, you just do a quick reset. The GM version comes with the TCM integral with the unit, and they come "blank", so you have to download and install a flash file on a new install, and you cross your fingers that the GM website is working within reasonable internet speeds that day.

kjclow · Nov 21, 2017

need4speed said:
I agree with the Camry idea; though the Toyota RAV4 was an awesome platform, because the kids sit up a bit higher, have better visibility, and can see where they're going better. And also a little better protected in collisions. Older RAV4's though are kind of in higher demand than camry sedans so they're a few hundred bucks more.

My coworker has owned his RAV4 for several years and his only complaint is that the bumpers are made out of tissue paper.

Rrusse11 · Nov 21, 2017

"There was a day when manual transmissions were much more reliable than an automatic" Fletchman

They still are more reliable.

Would a stick shift A4 TDI wagon be a good car for new teenage driver?

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