Door Lock Not Working

soot1

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You have a link handy? Digi key has a huge selection.

This weekend I'm busting my old lock apart. Really should of investigated this before spending money on a module.

At least it is only 1 I replaced so far.

I'm seriously going to measure and source an electric motor.

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Jason, forget the idea of finding a new motor for this lock. I spent half a day trying to do exactly that, and in the end, I had to give up - all I could find was a motor with much shorter shaft than what you need, but more importantly, without the plastic gear that is pressed onto the shaft of the motor. Furthermore, I became convinced that attempting to remove the gear from the old motor and trying to press it onto the new one (if you can actually find one) would almost certainly destroy the gear, unless you have a special fixture for that purpose. At the bottom of this thread http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=454858, you will find an image of how the inside of the module looks like. This image depicts the inside of a module from the three doors that don't have the lock cylinder in place, i.e. passenger front and both rear doors. Driver's door has two more microswitches at the left-hand end of the circuit board right next to the recess with the green dot. Also, the recess in the driver's door lock is open and holds round plastic part that allows the lock to be operated mechanically by the use of a key. Bottom line - the only reasonable way to fix this thing is to work with what you have, that is, bend the two tabs on the side of the motor, take it apart, clean the commutator and brushes and reassemble it. If the two metal tabs fall off when you bend them back, superglue the plastic part to the metal can.
 

jason_

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I've had the module apart. And the gear off. I heated the shaft and it slipped right off.

When I set it back on, I dremeled a groove for a "keyway", super glue and set it back on.

Digi key has 1800 to pick from. I'm sure there's one that fits. Even if that involves changing the Arbor and shaft.

I need 3 more modules. Trying to save $800.

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soot1

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side note I wish VW really would tell us what they are going to do with our cars. I have an 09' with no urea so I think my potential for a buyback is high. I just spent money replacing the rims (one bent). Also, I need to do a wheel bearing, timing belt, this door, and various other odds and ends to drive this thing for(ever) to 300k+. I sure would hate to spend the money and time (doing it all myself) and then VW offer a buyback, likely not optional, and I get pennies on the dollar valuation for this work being done (and zero compensation for my tens of hours).
Personally, I like to work with my hands and my head at the same time, so I viewed the time I spent back in November fixing this problem as a learning experience that might come handy in the future if any of the remaining three doors starts acting up. If everything goes smoothly (and I see no reason why it should not), you will spend about one day on this project. When you are done, you will have a door and a key fob that are fully functional again, plus the warm and fuzzy feeling the repair was done right, and you will never have to deal with this issue again, at least not on this door. In addition, you will have learned something new. Also, unlike any of the other repair jobs you need to do, this one will cost you almost nothing except for the time.
 

soot1

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I've had the module apart. And the gear off. I heated the shaft and it slipped right off.

When I set it back on, I dremeled a groove for a "keyway", super glue and set it back on.

Digi key has 1800 to pick from. I'm sure there's one that fits. Even if that involves changing the Arbor and shaft.

I need 3 more modules. Trying to save $800.

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The motor is made by Mabuchi, part number FC-280PD-20150. I suspect it is something Mabuchi makes specifically for VW to their specifications. Good luck with the search.
 

soot1

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that one looked clean compared to what mine looked like when I took it apart.
I had the same impression, but from the discussion that precedes the three images, it looks like this motor's DC resistance measured "only" 180 ohms, whereas yours did 400, and mine even 1200 ohms. That would explained how relatively clean this one looks, although I am certain that even at 180 ohms, the motor will hardly turn.
 

soot1

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I forgot when I had mine apart, there #s in/on the case somewhere?
Check the link I posted immediately before your question. Scroll down to the bottom of that page, and you will see how the motor markings look like.
 

jason_

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I took my old one apart this weekend. Couple of distributors emailed. Hopefully all 4 use the same #


Edit


http://www.mabuchi-motor.co.jp is a bust. Well, a win if you order a lot.

1 down, still waiting on 4 replies.

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jason_

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Update. All 5 fell through. I am waiting on a 6th. I did source a FC-280PD-20150, which like mentioned has a shorter shaft. Other then switching shaft, and hoping it'll work, next is to clarify if the front 2 doors use the same actuator.

I'll probably buy a few and see. I'll gamble $15 to save $800.

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umrpunter

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clean up the terminals (commutator) with a mild abrasive (1000 grit sandpaper) and slap it back together. Clean all grease off with brake clean or other non water containing cleaner. sand the brush faces with 1000 grit as well. Should basically work forever.
 

jason_

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Yeah, I'll give that a go as long as the motor isn't smoked. Right now nothing happens.

Maybe this weekend I'll get drunk and tear the other side apart.

The front doors lock, but the rocker switch doesn't turn yellow to signify feedback to ecm, so my horn won't honk. So either it's partially locking, or the microswitch is bad.

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umrpunter

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I bet it is good to go, just can't pass enough electricity through the carbon buildup from roasted what I assume is dielectric grease. But anyways I'll be mirroring your efforts this weekend as well. Beer is a good idea
 

740GLE

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im thinking a junkyard should have a pile of these assemblies that could provide good doners to repair one then replace it as you make your way around the car.

As of right now I only have one working lock which was dealer replaced back in 2011 or so, ha!
 

jason_

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Mk4 use same motor? Anyone willing to tear their door apart and confirm? Audi a4?

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soot1

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Yeah, I'll give that a go as long as the motor isn't smoked.
The only way to burn the winding of the motor would be to stall the shaft while the motor is connected to 12 V. The specification you posted for the motor indicates stall current of 3.90 A, which would produce total power loss of 12 x 3.9 = 46.8 W. That is quite enough to destroy the winding within fairly short period of time (< 20s in my guess). So far, all the failures I read about on this forum pointed to a very different scenario - one in which, over period of time, the contact resistance between the brushes and the commutator steadily grows, allowing less and less current to pass thru the winding. In the end, the current passing thru the winding is so low that it cannot spin the rotor, and the lock stops working. Limiting the current flowing thru the winding down to only a few milliamperes on the one hand makes the lock stop working, but on the other hand, it pretty much eliminates the possibility of burning the winding. Take, for instance my lock. I measured the contact resistance between the brushes and the commutator at about 1200 ohms, while the resistance of the winding itself is mere 3 ohms. 1200 ohms connected to 12 Volts will allow only 0.01 Amperes to flow, and total power dissipation of 12 V x 0.01 A = 0.12 W. However, since the winding has resistance of only 3 ohms, the voltage across it will only be 3 ohms x 0.01 A = 0.03 Volts, and the power dissipation on the winding will be 0.03 V x 0.01 A = 0.0003 W. Power dissipation this small cannot burn the winding.

Bottom line - when you take the motor apart and find the characteristic black streak on the commutator, rub it off and the motor will work normally again. Also, if you cannot find a fine-grit sandpaper, try the red rubber eraser from an ordinary #2 pencil, they add a very fine abrasive into the rubber compound, and it will work just like a very fine sandpaper.
 

soot1

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im thinking a junkyard should have a pile of these assemblies that could provide good doners to repair one then replace it as you make your way around the car.

As of right now I only have one working lock which was dealer replaced back in 2011 or so, ha!
Why bother picking up used and possibly nonfunctional lock assemblies at a junkyard when you already have dysfunctional lock in your car, and it's free. You will still have to invest the time and effort into removing the door skin, lock cylinder and the lock itself and then put it all back together. The time it takes to disassemble the bad lock assembly, fix it and reassemble it will add 2-3 hours to the total repair time when you do it the first time and are only learning. Second time you fix the lock shouldn't take you more than 1 hour to fix once it is out of the door.

Also, I am reasonably sure that if you take any of your non-working locks apart, you'll find the servo motor to be the culprit. The fix is time-consuming, but very straightforward, and costs you almost nothing except the time. Keep in mind that the electrical portion of the driver's door lock contains only 5 parts, the motor and four microswitches. Nothing else. The other three doors are even simpler with two fewer microswitches. If your dealer replaced the defective lock and it fixed the issue, it means one of the 3 or 5 parts must have been defective.
 

jason_

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Spare motors. Maybe micro switches. I don't want the entire latch assembly.

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umrpunter

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took my module all apart. Motor was definitely all gunked up. Cleaned the commutator and hooked it up to a 9v battery and spun like a dream. Put it back together and now have a new problem, the actual mechanism binds up and doesn't want to lock/unlock etc. So yea....that is great.......it moves and such but just won't go into place like it should. I believe it got bound and wore out the worm gear inside the thing.
 

jetlagmech

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took my module all apart. Motor was definitely all gunked up. Cleaned the commutator and hooked it up to a 9v battery and spun like a dream. Put it back together and now have a new problem, the actual mechanism binds up and doesn't want to lock/unlock etc. So yea....that is great.......it moves and such but just won't go into place like it should. I believe it got bound and wore out the worm gear inside the thing.
when you reassembled it you didn't get one of the pieces aligned correctly. I did the same thing the first time I reassembled mine. after the moter and cover is on.....connecting the electric half to the latch half of the unit there is a little fork and arm that have to connect up. cant see it when together, have to line it up while putting together.
 

soot1

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took my module all apart. Motor was definitely all gunked up. Cleaned the commutator and hooked it up to a 9v battery and spun like a dream. Put it back together and now have a new problem, the actual mechanism binds up and doesn't want to lock/unlock etc. So yea....that is great.......it moves and such but just won't go into place like it should. I believe it got bound and wore out the worm gear inside the thing.
Here is a link to a very useful video I'd suggest you view in its entirety: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA_igZnCBPY. The instructions on how to put the whole thing back together start around 38:00, and at 41:30, the author explains how to mate correctly the electrical part with the mechanical one, which is what jetlagmech hinted at in his message. If you neglect this crucial step in the reassembly process, the lock will not work.
 

jason_

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An update on my headache. I didn't tear into it yet.

The one passenger side, I manually engaged it, the light turns on, and end result the switches on front doors light up. Must be a safety indicator? They always locked up front but never lit up until both rear doors successfully registered feedback to ecm.

And then that one rear rear door worked for a few days... Then stopped.

So it's confirmed, electric motor is weak (doesn't "whack", like the new module in the other door) , and sitting in a bad spot on rotation.


Oh, side note for anyone tearing into this.

You can check the module in hand without assembling door. Just plug in harness to door panel and the module and play with vcds. And you can check the micro switch (and basically everything else) for door closure by engaging/disengaging it with a screw driver.

Vcds will never know....

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umrpunter

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ok for the experts here.......all fixed up but now my door handle works funky. I have to pull it twice sometimes to open from the outside. Any ideas? I made sure it was under tension when I installed the clip
 

soot1

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ok for the experts here.......all fixed up but now my door handle works funky. I have to pull it twice sometimes to open from the outside. Any ideas? I made sure it was under tension when I installed the clip
Have you already installed the lock cylinder and tightened the Torx 20 screw that secures it in place? When I was reassembling the door, I tried how well the door opens without the lock cylinder installed, and ended up with the same problems as you are reporting. Once the lock cylinder was in place and the T20 screw tightened, the door opening mechanism worked like a dream. If you already installed the lock and secured it, the only other possible root cause is that you didn't put the cable that opens the door from outside into the correct grove. If you marked the right grove during the disassembly process, put it in the same grove as it was. If you skipped this step during disassembly, you will now have to try which of the groves works best.
 
Last edited:

jason_

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Honestly my biggest headache was getting the door panel top lip to seat correctly, up near the window. I gave up and set the panel clips. It looks higher then the rest of the trim if you follow beyond the door.

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740GLE

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An update on my headache. I didn't tear into it yet.

The one passenger side, I manually engaged it, the light turns on, and end result the switches on front doors light up. Must be a safety indicator? They always locked up front but never lit up until both rear doors successfully registered feedback to ecm.

And then that one rear rear door worked for a few days... Then stopped.

So it's confirmed, electric motor is weak (doesn't "whack", like the new module in the other door) , and sitting in a bad spot on rotation.


Oh, side note for anyone tearing into this.

You can check the module in hand without assembling door. Just plug in harness to door panel and the module and play with vcds. And you can check the micro switch (and basically everything else) for door closure by engaging/disengaging it with a screw driver.

Vcds will never know....

Sent from my s-off'ed m7 with CM11

For clarifications, do you have working "locks" on both front doors?


I spent 2 hours playing with the front passengers lock as it would not light up when locked, where as both the rears would light up. I could manual activate the rears and see the light clearly turn on just as I started to push that red locked lever, even with the door open.

After dissembling the passengers door mechanism and checking for continuity 2-5 times, it looks like uses the normal open contact where as the normal closed isn't soldered to anything.

After finding nothing wrong I gave up and just tossed it back together. One thing that may be in my favor that i think you just confirmed, I still have a dead drivers door lock and maybe both fronts need to be working for the light to come on both.

Haven't dived into any other locks as the wife is still glaring at me for "wasting" more than half a day and still not fixing it :D oh well!
 

jason_

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Yeah, they electronically do their thing. They just won't broadcast "locked" with light feedback unless both rear doors are giving ecm position feedback.

Even though they don't light up, they won't open from outside.

The moment I manually throw the rear driver door from edge access hole, rear driver lights up as locked, the moment I close the door, all 4 doors light up.

/me shrugs.



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740GLE

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that give me hope!!!!

only 2 more doors to go!!!
 

jason_

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Well, after Mayne 6 months of light use, as I rarely lock my car,

2 same faults with the brand new module. It does lock and unlock, but still.... Clear codes, hit the lock button, immediately appears.


Auto lock, unlock after key removed, etc etc, all that's been disabled. I could probably easily say there's less then 50 cycles on the new module.

****ing oem junk.

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