Turbo whine doesnt seem to be leaking

~TDIguy~

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Romulus Ny
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2005 Jetta Sedan
Turbo whine-doesnt seem to be leaking

I'm experiencing a turbo whine on my BEW that has me a bit worried... It started around the same time I got the stage 4 Malone put on a few weeks ago.. Sounds a lot like a boost leak, runs right with the turbo and dies away when you squeeze the boost line going into the intake on top of the engine.. I pulled the piping apart on the pressure side of the turbo and the sound did not change. Did the same on the intake side and no different. Any ideas what I may have going on? I also put the car on the lift and had someone rev it up a bit to build some boost while I felt around underneath checking connections for air escaping etc... I'm running a VNT 17, has less than 10k miles on it, Egr delete and 2.5" exhaust.. Also pd150 intake manifold.
 
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~TDIguy~

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May 4, 2017
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Romulus Ny
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2005 Jetta Sedan
Anyone have a clue what may be going on? Or maybe its something that's not worth worrying about........
 

Carlos_TJ

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Aug 3, 2014
Location
Tijuana Mexico
TDI
2009 Bora (BXE PD)
Is it the type of turbo whine that starts when the engine is cold and quiets as it warms up?
Do you have the orher air leak symptoms? (Black smoke, reduced performance?)
 

Mongler98

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Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
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98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
I had an issue with my PD150, its impossible to properly torque the intake studs/bolts when doing this swap without some custom made tool. It might be possible your intake gasket is leaking. some soapy water in a spray bottle is your friend once your up on the lift. Probably not the problem ad mine just leaked oil out. As long as your making boost levels and consistently, i would check the actuator for proper movement and no vacuum leaks. I would suspect a boost leak.
 

~TDIguy~

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Location
Romulus Ny
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2005 Jetta Sedan
The sound runs right with the turbo.. I unhooked both the intake and the pressure side piping (individually) thinking if its a leak the sound will change but i didnt hear any difference. If you squeeze the rubber hose on the pressure side, the one on top of the engine right before it goes to the manifold, the sound quiets as the airflow lessens. Is it possible the intercooler is coming apart internally? But i had ruled that out cause i had the piping apart at the manifold too and nothing changed....... once its warmed up its quieter but still there..
 

Mongler98

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Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
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98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
can you upload a video of this to youtube and share with us please. im suspect to the turbo its self.
If you can, get s set of feeler gauges and a micrometer and measure the side to side play and the end to end play of the turbo shaft. you should have some side to side, not much, but some. end to end is not that great and should technically be none but a small amount like 0.020 is not uncommon on end play on a worn but still good VTN.
 

~TDIguy~

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Romulus Ny
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2005 Jetta Sedan
Don't really have a good way to upload to youtube….. I felt in the turbo with my fingers, seems tight and everything, definitely not like the play ive felt in 5.9 cummins turbos which obviously are larger etc but I felt it was acceptable.. This sound started about a day after I had the stage 4 done. With the stage 4 I can boost and hold 35 psi.... That sounds high to me but the reputable installer had test drove the car after the tune and said everything is good so I wasn't really worrying about it. However could this have stressed the bearings etc?? Like I said it still makes boost and is responsive as before.:confused:
 

Owain@malonetuning

Associate Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Location
Vancouver
TDI
PD jetta wagon
What're your sustained and peak boost levels? Have VCDS? measuring block 11 will show boost request, actual, and n75 behavior. ECU is requesting 24 psi and expecting a 3 bar map sensor, so if including atmospheric (14.5 psi) you'd be 3lbs under request. If you're hitting 35lbs that definitely needs looked into.
 

Mongler98

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Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
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98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
35? a bit high, im one to talk i am running 32. be careful of head lift.
 

~TDIguy~

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May 4, 2017
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Romulus Ny
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2005 Jetta Sedan
Owain you may have been involved with the tune, I got it through German Diesel Motorwerks, installed by Ryan... I have a 35 psi gage which I can peg without much trouble, the car will boost 26 or so for a bit then go right on up to 35... GDM did not sell me a 3 bar might this be my whole problem?
 

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
You can upload at pics.tdiclub.com, allowable file types:
jpg,jpeg,png,gif
mpeg,mpg,avi,asf,wmv,mov,pdf,doc,xls,xlsx
as well as Zip, up to 10mb.
 

Owain@malonetuning

Associate Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Location
Vancouver
TDI
PD jetta wagon
I was not, but I've sent you an email. If it's still on a 2.5 bar map sensor then all of your boost values would be off by 2.5/3 since it goes off a voltage range.

So for example at peak boost you'd be running about 1.65 bar (24 psi)
2.65 (including atmospheric) / 3 = 0.8833
0.8833 * 2.5 = 2.2 bar including atmospheric

So if you had a 2.5 bar map in and the tune assumed 3 bar, you'd still be at ~17.5 psi.
 
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eddieleephd

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Joined
May 27, 2012
Location
Battle Ground, Wa
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2002 jetta Wagon
My question is what boost hose did you get for the conversion?
OEM, or Gates?
My Gates hose would whistle when under 21+ lbs boost.
It ended up blowing at the turbo and whoosh began.

I have an OEM hose and it's quite, even at 26 psi.

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~TDIguy~

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Romulus Ny
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I believe its the OEM hose on there, Ive never changed it anyway.. I had taken it off and the sound didn't change which leads me to believe its not a leak... at least not on the boost side
 

~TDIguy~

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Romulus Ny
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2005 Jetta Sedan
Will be in contact with GDM again to see what may be going on, ill let you guys know how we make out!
 

~TDIguy~

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Location
Romulus Ny
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2005 Jetta Sedan
SO on Friday I finally had a chance to make the 4 hr drive to GDM and get the car diagnosed. Turns out the turbo whine comes from the over boost, which is a result of not installing and tuning the car for a 3 bar map. What is happening is the tune is calling for 26 mbar of boost, but the sensor can only read 25.8 mbar. (Correct me if my terms are wrong) When it reaches 25.8 the tune is still calling for more pressure so the vanes remain closed as they should, but once it reaches 26 the sensor is now out of range and doesn't know to begin opening the vanes to hold that pressure. THus the boost goes wild. Malone was closed Friday so we couldn't get a new tune but we will need to install a 3 bar and make the adjustments to the tune which should correct the problem.
 

~TDIguy~

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They say they need to customize the tune for the 3 bar vs 2.5........ Not sure why, I'm not complaining if that's whats gotta happen, I just want it right is all I'm saying...
 

Owain@malonetuning

Associate Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Location
Vancouver
TDI
PD jetta wagon
The tune sent was for a 2.5 bar sensor.

If the tune sent was for a 3 bar, then it would be under-boosting. The boost request works off voltage to the map sensor, not a mbar request. If it was set for a 3 bar map sensor, it'd be requesting about 2.65 bar, or 88.3% of the sensor range.

0.883 * 2.5 = 2.21 bar, or about 17.5 psi excl atmospheric, way under the 24 psi this turbo is good for.

If a 3 bar sensor was installed on a 2.5 bar tune, then it would over-boost. Do not install a 3 bar map on a 2.5 bar tune. You can check the boost requested with vcds under block 11 during a wide open pull, and you're welcome to rent a tool/work direct to avoid the drive. Custom tuning shouldn't be required but doesn't hurt. Mark was in until 2 pacific on Friday and will be back at it tomorrow
 
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eddieleephd

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May 27, 2012
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Battle Ground, Wa
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2002 jetta Wagon
The tune sent was for a 2.5 bar sensor.

0.883 * 2.5 = 2.21 bar, or about 17.5 psi excl atmospheric, way under the 24 psi this turbo is good for.

If a 3 bar sensor was installed on a 2.5 bar tune, then it would over-boost. Do not install a 3 bar map on a 2.5 bar tune. You can check the boost requested with vcds under block 11 during a wide open pull, and you're welcome to rent a tool/work direct to avoid the drive. Custom tuning shouldn't be required but doesn't hurt. Mark was in until 2 pacific on Friday and will be back at it tomorrow
Which is what he last said it's doing if I am reading correctly.
So maybe he has a 3 bar on a 2.5 bar tune?

Fun times!

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Owain@malonetuning

Associate Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Location
Vancouver
TDI
PD jetta wagon
Could be, we just provided the tune that was requested so it's up to the installer to diagnose and flash accordingly.
 

~TDIguy~

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Romulus Ny
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2005 Jetta Sedan
So i am now several thousand miles past the episode with the overboosting. The fix was to request another tune from malone, install the 3 bar and were golden. The turbo is still making a good amount of noise, not any less maybe more than it was when i posted. Anyway i was told not to worry about it if im not losing oil, which i wasnt, until i checked my oil the other day. Last oil change i didnt add any oil over the 10k mile interval and the level barely moved on the stick. Im approximately 2500 miles since my last oil change now, and when i checked it yesterday i needed 2.5-3 quarts to bring it up to level!!:( So my question is, where is it most likely this oil is getting too? im thinking turbo, but i dont know that for sure. No signifigant leaks on the engine other than "normal" tdi seeps. I did not find anything in the intercooler but i normally do drive fairly spirited. Any advice?
 

flee

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Sep 19, 2011
Location
Chatsworth, CA
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS wagon
Maybe out the tailpipe?
Order your replacement turbo soon, your engine will thank you.
 

eddieleephd

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May 27, 2012
Location
Battle Ground, Wa
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2002 jetta Wagon
Yes, however, out the exhaust is better than the intake. It's still making boost and pushing the oil out the exhaust rather than sucking it in. That tends to happen on shut down.

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eddieleephd

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Joined
May 27, 2012
Location
Battle Ground, Wa
TDI
2002 jetta Wagon
And be sure your boost system is solid! Leaks are not good for the turbo at all. I recommend pressure testing the boost system. You can create an adapter with pvc and a metal valve stem. Just block the pcv so it holds and pressurize. Listen for leaks and seeping air. The intake manifold can be an issue lacking audible indicators unless pressure is supplied with the engine off.

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