Chemical cleaning for turbo vs removal?

dellwas

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Nov 25, 2004
Location
Chester Grant, NS
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon
Mine were copper coated...

Cost was only 40 cents or so apiece.

MirekTDI said:
I think the nuts were M8.. I would just get them from the dealer as they are not just regular nuts, I think they are brass like the exhaust manifold nuts..
 

Tom W.

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mash-up GettaTDI150, 1986 Jetta Delux D, 2005 Passat TDI sedan
eccdieselken: If you are gaining access to the exhaust side of the turbo thru the exhaust(down) pipe, it's easiest just to go spend the $6-8 at the stealership and get the proper 3 nuts-I think MirekTDI is right, they are some kind of special material- I do know they are lock nuts. -Be sure to use some anti-sieze on the threads when you bolt the down pipe back on.

If you are gaining access where the EGR bolts onto the exhaust manifold, you will probably be able to re-use them.(there are only 2 of 'em).
Either way works. If I had to do it again, I would probably go in thru the EGR.
 

ecodieselken

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Location
Heart of the Trent, Ontario
TDI
01 Jetta TDI
Oven Cleaning the turbo

Tom W. said:
eccdieselken: If you are gaining access to the exhaust side of the turbo thru the exhaust(down) pipe, it's easiest just to go spend the $6-8 at the stealership and get the proper 3 nuts-I think MirekTDI is right, they are some kind of special material- I do know they are lock nuts. -Be sure to use some anti-sieze on the threads when you bolt the down pipe back on.
I took the 3 nuts off on the exhaust pipe side, they were 13mm and with 15 mins of penetration fluid and some heat came off with no real issues. I opted from doing the EGR cooler side as the 2 nuts looked terrible and like they hadn't been touched in 230k kms. Didn't want to frig with that, especially reaching up in that confined area and cutting my knuckles all to ****. I sprayed oven cleaner in past the turbine blade. (I think I got it in there) Here's a few pics of the operation,

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3802488/3

I'll be sure to post my results. I can hear the damn thing squeaking as I move the vacuum gauge through about 12 psi..so I've also put the "high performance" penetrating lube to it and turned the car on to spin it around a few times(5 sec), then filled it again with penetrating lube. Going to let it sit for a half hour and then run it once more to get the worst out before hooking the exhaust back up.
 
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Tom W.

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mash-up GettaTDI150, 1986 Jetta Delux D, 2005 Passat TDI sedan
great photos!

Glad to see someone taking the chemical protection thing seriously!
Keep exercising the actuator lever w the mity-vac. When it is moving full range, and smoothly, you're ready to butten it up and go for a drive!
 

InfoSec

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Joined
Jul 4, 2000
Location
Brighton, MI
Good times were had this past Sunday night...

Ok...here goes. I'll keep it brief cuz I'm at work. Checked the actuator rod on the 'lil turbo. Worked quite well, i.e., moved about an inch (+/-). Took off downtube, turbo looked fine. Took off rubber hose that leads into the intake/EGR set-up. Peered inside. Looked okay at the connection point. Removed ERG/pre-intake module that the rubber hose hooks to and peered inside the "intake". OMFG, was it clogged! I made the mistake of putting my pinky finger inside to see how far it would go in, and I have to say that I have a new-found respect for proctologists. I'd post a link of my pic I took of it on my iPhone, but I don't know how to do that. It was NASTY! I spent the better part of another hour deciding if I should buy that Tourag V10 TDI I saw on ebay w/ 103 miles on it a few days ago, but by the time I got up the nerve to buy it, it had already been sold. So alas, I decided I'd just clean out the intake. I didn't really want to take it off, but thought I'd get too much crap down into the engine if I tried to cean it the way I thought I could if I didn't remove it.

Sooooo, I kept it on. I fabricated a long vaccum tube for my shop vac and a small pipe cleaner and an old screw driver that had the end bent over (like a paint can lid opener) and began picking away at the gunk whilest the vaccum was running. I figured that since the EGR crap was concentrated in density near the front of the intake that the rest of the intake wouldn't be as bad, which is kind of why I left it on. (I guess this is the long version of the story). So after picking, scraping, reeming, etc., the intake out, and putting everything back to gether again, I tried to start the car. I believe I must have got some gunk down in there, cuz life's not perfect, so I squirted a fair amount of diesel into the cylinder in order to "dilute" the sh*t that more than likely ran down into the cylinders. After waiting about an hour, I tried to start it knowing full well that the diesel probably diluted the nastiness and some of it seeped passed the rings into the oil, which I then changed. I gave Wifey the honor of trying to start the car, so if it went kaboom, she would feel guilty enough to let me get the Tourag (which she kinda wanted more than me, and yes, this point, it was sold, but she didn't know that. So if it did go ka-plowie, she'd feel bad enough to let me get another Tourag once she found out the other one had been sold. Yes, I'm going to hell for playing these games w/ her. )

So she turned the key, it didn't start, but it did turn over fine so I assumed no valves were bent, no pistons hurt, no guilt...so my idea of letting the nasties that probably leaked into the cylinders get diluted w/ diesel hopefully worked. It did putter a couple of times, so I assumed that some gunk probably got hung up somewhere, so I told her to "turn the key harder". She did and it started just fine! The front yard looked as if someone had been burning wet leaves for a while, but she was happy that she turned the key harder and that it started! I did believe that the Cat and Muffler were choking under the nastiness that came through it, so I let it idle for a minute to warm up and then ran it around my 4-mile test loop, and I must say...I have found the cure for ED. It has never, EVER ran so strong! Once smoke out the tailpipe quite (burned all of the nasties up), I ran it hard, I mean HARD! I always since day-1, lossed power about 3K rpm. It would run hard, and pull all the way past 4k rpm. Whe I shift it wouldn't hesitate, it would just pull, pull, pull! I was able to take it on the hwy to work today, and I could actually pull-out and pass people in the left lane by downshifting to 4th and stepping on it. Before, I always had to gain speed in 5th and time my passings w/ available space. It is truly amazing how much of a difference cleaning all of that sh*t out makes. I know I don't need a Tourag now (or do I), but I am actually looking forward to driving this car from now on.

Going forward, I'm wondering if I should cap-off the EGR vaccum line to it doesn't open. I did this for a week a couple of month's ago not knowing the extent of how bad the clogging was, and then reattached it because the engine light was annyoing me. I hate to do this because if something else goes wrong, I wouldn't know it unless I go to Autozone on a monthly basis to ask them to check the 'puter for the error codes.

Any suggestions on what to do at this point, besides driving it hard once in a while, which I will obviously do, would be helpful...

Thanks for to everybody for the info on this thread. It really got me inspired to figure out what the bleep was wrong with my car.

Finally, I have to say, that even with that intake clogged as bad as it was, I could still muster about 85 mph out of the car, and it ran fine less than 60 mph and under 3k rpm. This is a true testatment to the toughness of these little diesels and how well they can run when they are maintained on a routine basis. I had no idea that they ran this good. (I bought it used w/ 101K miles on it and it now has 161K on it and it is completely reborn!)

Take care.

-Mike
 

oldpoopie

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MIKE, NEVER AND I MEAN NEVER POUR STRAIGHT DIESEL INTO THE CYLINDERS OR MANIFOLD!!!

Liquids are not compressable. If you got too much into the cylinders, you would likely bend the rods and ruin the motor!!!! You got very very very lucky.

To all members, NEVER attempt to clean an intake manifold while the manifold is on the car. DISASTER awaits via bent valves and pistons....

-J
 

InfoSec

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Location
Brighton, MI
Thanks, Dad. I thought that was commond knowledge. But perhaps I had not made my point that I was prepared to not waste anymore time and money on my car. I was prepared to sit long enough for the diesel to run dilute the crap that may have made it into the cylinders and then leek without concern past the rings. And since it was such a little amount, it would push whatever crap was keeping one of the valves open, and would not be enough to be a problem for the valves/pistons. Since this isn't water we're talking about, I thought it less of a problem. And since I work on a lot of diesel gensets for fun, like Perkins, Onan, Cummins, etc., that are old and in dire need of repair or replacement, I usually don't concern myself about these kinds of things because there's a lot more wiggle room than people think. And diesel is a liquid, yes, but it's combustable, so that's why I did it. We're talking about 2-3 table spoons total misted into the intake w/ an spray bottle. I wouldn't recommend anything I did to anybody unless their willing to accept the risk and the reward.

I've done this before and haven't (on an old 6-cylinder Perkins), but that had a larger distace from the valve to the cylinder, but it had dished pistons so it was even less of a problem).

Thanks for your concern and for the safety of all diesels everywhere. If it was water, or anything other than diesel, then I could have had other issues, but it wasn't and to me, the car had come to the end of its useful life, and I was ready to cut bait. What do you think happens when some of that crap breaks-fee while you're driving down the road? It goes right into the engine, compresses w/ diesel, and gets pumped out the tailpipe. I'm sure people have had this happen before (big blue clouds of smoke behind the car travaeling at 75 mph a couple of months back) when some of that crap gets sucked into the engine. It's inevitable that kind of thing happens more often that people think. And the engine keeps on going. If it didn't happen that way, i.e, the engine was much more fragile that we give it credit for, we'd have a lot more threads about bent valves and pistons occurring more often than not. I'm more concerned about that gooey crap getting into the engine than about a squirt of diesel getting into any of the 4 cylinders. So given my level of repair knowledge, level of risk I wish to accept, and the history of my own car, I made a decision and am happy w/ the results.

Maybe you're just an old poopie! Thanks, though, for your comments. If people get to reading my thread, hopefully, they started from the beginning of the thread and make their own choices. I, personally, chose not to use oven cleaner, take off the turbo, the manifold, and everything else, and wouldn't recommend anybody else do what I did, nor would I recommend anything else on the thread, as each person's own experiences, and knowledge lead us to different decisions.

Later!
-mike
 

dogdots

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Location
Kansas City
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None
First of all, this is a turbo cleaning thread, not an intake cleaning thread.

Secondly, if your car is at the "end of its useful life" then please sell it to someone who will actually take the extra 30 minutes to properly remove the intake and clean it right. I keep a spare one clean so I can just swap and go for folks that need an intake cleaning. You did not get anywhere near all of the crud out of your intake that you could have by doing it right.

Your posting will lead folks to believe they can take this shortcut, even if you have a disclaimer, just because you say it works. Thank goodness you are not a doctor.

While I think the chemical turbo cleaning is a good idea for the turbo (the oven cleaner can not harm the surfaces it will touch if done properly) I think your approach to intake cleaning is the worst idea I have read in these forums in a long time. What is most reprehensible is that you actually posted your ignorance and laziness for the rest of us to read. That makes you partially responsible for any destruction people do to their engine who read this thread, try it, and don't have the extremely lucky result you did. Disclaimer or not.

Bottom line - TO ANYONE READING THIS DO NOT ATTEMPT TO CLEAN THE INTAKE ON THE CAR.
 

oldpoopie

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Location
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InfoSec said:
Thanks, Dad. I thought that was commond knowledge. But perhaps I had not made my point that I was prepared to not waste anymore time and money on my car. I was prepared to sit long enough for the diesel to run dilute the crap that may have made it into the cylinders and then leek without concern past the rings. And since it was such a little amount, it would push whatever crap was keeping one of the valves open, and would not be enough to be a problem for the valves/pistons. Since this isn't water we're talking about, I thought it less of a problem. And since I work on a lot of diesel gensets for fun, like Perkins, Onan, Cummins, etc., that are old and in dire need of repair or replacement, I usually don't concern myself about these kinds of things because there's a lot more wiggle room than people think. And diesel is a liquid, yes, but it's combustable, so that's why I did it. We're talking about 2-3 table spoons total misted into the intake w/ an spray bottle. I wouldn't recommend anything I did to anybody unless their willing to accept the risk and the reward.

I've done this before and haven't (on an old 6-cylinder Perkins), but that had a larger distace from the valve to the cylinder, but it had dished pistons so it was even less of a problem).

Thanks for your concern and for the safety of all diesels everywhere. If it was water, or anything other than diesel, then I could have had other issues, but it wasn't and to me, the car had come to the end of its useful life, and I was ready to cut bait. What do you think happens when some of that crap breaks-fee while you're driving down the road? It goes right into the engine, compresses w/ diesel, and gets pumped out the tailpipe. I'm sure people have had this happen before (big blue clouds of smoke behind the car travaeling at 75 mph a couple of months back) when some of that crap gets sucked into the engine. It's inevitable that kind of thing happens more often that people think. And the engine keeps on going. If it didn't happen that way, i.e, the engine was much more fragile that we give it credit for, we'd have a lot more threads about bent valves and pistons occurring more often than not. I'm more concerned about that gooey crap getting into the engine than about a squirt of diesel getting into any of the 4 cylinders. So given my level of repair knowledge, level of risk I wish to accept, and the history of my own car, I made a decision and am happy w/ the results.

Maybe you're just an old poopie! Thanks, though, for your comments. If people get to reading my thread, hopefully, they started from the beginning of the thread and make their own choices. I, personally, chose not to use oven cleaner, take off the turbo, the manifold, and everything else, and wouldn't recommend anybody else do what I did, nor would I recommend anything else on the thread, as each person's own experiences, and knowledge lead us to different decisions.

Later!
-mike
I dont think you fully understand the TDI engine and the clearances within.You got super lucky...... Also, I dont think I'll bother explaining it again.
 

dieselfuel

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2008
Location
ohio
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI
Actuator lever

Hi Tom,

With the engine off, and a correctly functioning actuator lever, is the lever easily moved by hand? Or, would you need to apply vacuum?

Mine's hard to move by hand, only able to move it a little with the engine off.

With the engine running, it moves more than I can move it by hand, when the engine is revved..

(Still think I need a cleaning and will try later today, through the EGR pipe)

TIA,
df
 

Tom W.

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TDI
mash-up GettaTDI150, 1986 Jetta Delux D, 2005 Passat TDI sedan
diesefuel:

Using the Mityvac is easiest. Engine off, simply disconnect the vacuum line (going to the VNT) where it plugs into the N75, plug the Mityvac into this vacuum line, pump up the vacuum, watch the VNT actuator arm. It should move smoothly as the vacuum increases. By the time you get to 18-20HG vacuum, the Actuator arm should have moved to it's maximum position- It wil have moved a little more than an inch.
Go ahead and pump it up a bit more, you should not get any further movement. Also, the vacuum should not drop when you stop pumping.

If the vacuum drops- you have a bad actuator or a leaky vacuum line- replace.
If the arm moves a bit jerky as you pump up the vacuum or if it is not at maximum position by 20hg, you have sticky vains, and it is time to get some Easy-Off.

If you like to do things the hard way, or if you don't have a Mityvac, you can actually unclip the VNT actuator from the actuator arm/diaphram(this is what makes it so hard to move by hand), and then manually play with the actuator. Flip it back and forth - it should move easily through it's full range of movement now that it is not connected to the actuator/diaphram. -See Drivebiwire's video:
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/2006_0603_175432AB.AVI
 
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dieselfuel

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Location
ohio
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2003 Jetta TDI
Thanks Tom.

I used the vac ,but think I wasn't getting a good seal on the hose going to the N75 valve. I could pump it up to 19.25 hg. The vaccuum would slowly fall. I can feel the lever move, and I guess it moves all the way, but I can't 'see it', I can 'feel it' with my hand.

When guys are injecting the EO through the EGR, are they going in through the cooler? Or the other end.

The cooler end would be easy to get to. The other end is tougher to get to.

I held off doing it today, and only worked the actuator with the vac.

I think the vac has helped, but there still seems to be some sticking.

I gave the A$ quite a few 'Italian tune-ups' today in between vac sessions.

I was able to get to 4000 rpm in 4 gear a few times today, where as before, I'd only get to 3600, if I was lucky.

df
 

Tom W.

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mash-up GettaTDI150, 1986 Jetta Delux D, 2005 Passat TDI sedan
loosing vacuum means something is wrong.

If you are loosing vacuum, something is wrong. First, test the Mity-vac by putting your finger (or something soft and non-permiable like a piece of rubber)over the vacuum end, pump it up, see if it holds vacuum. If the Mity-vac tests OK, maybe you have a leaky vacuum hose-replace the vacuum line going from the VNT to the N75, attach the Mity-vac,pump up the vacuum again, and see if the vacuum holds. If the vacuum still doesn't hold, you have a bad actuator- replace it. - you don't need to replace the turbo, just the actuator.

Maybe your turbo needs cleaning, maybe not. First, fix the vacuum leak. That could well fix things.
 
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dieselfuel

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Location
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2003 Jetta TDI
Is the vacuum hose held on by a clamp on the VNT actuator side?

I;ve been going at it from the top side and I can't really tell. It 'feels" like there isn't a clamp.

df
 

Tom W.

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mash-up GettaTDI150, 1986 Jetta Delux D, 2005 Passat TDI sedan
no hose clamp on actuator side

I don't have a clamp on mine. In fact, there are no clamps on any of the vacuum lines. Vacuum lines tend to fit quite snuggly, and of course, when vacuum is applied, they tend to hold even more tightly.
 

dellwas

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Location
Chester Grant, NS
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2003 Jetta Wagon
Don't think anyone is injecting E.O. through the EGR. I totally removed my EGR/Cooler and sprayed down the throat of the turbo (exhaust side housing).

dieselfuel said:
Thanks Tom.

I used the vac ,but think I wasn't getting a good seal on the hose going to the N75 valve. I could pump it up to 19.25 hg. The vaccuum would slowly fall. I can feel the lever move, and I guess it moves all the way, but I can't 'see it', I can 'feel it' with my hand.

When guys are injecting the EO through the EGR, are they going in through the cooler? Or the other end.

The cooler end would be easy to get to. The other end is tougher to get to.

I held off doing it today, and only worked the actuator with the vac.

I think the vac has helped, but there still seems to be some sticking.

I gave the A$ quite a few 'Italian tune-ups' today in between vac sessions.

I was able to get to 4000 rpm in 4 gear a few times today, where as before, I'd only get to 3600, if I was lucky.

df
 

oldpoopie

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The vac lines attached to the EGR and the VNT actuator are fixed with a clamp from the factory. I believe that they put them there for fear the heat will soften the hose and allow the hose to fall off. Really the clamp is not nessesary.
 

dieselfuel

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Thanks guys.

I'm going in for a TB change next month. When the belly pan's off, I'll take a look. I'd like to attach my vac pump line directly to the actuator and test it.

As I pump the vac, the vacuum rises and starts to drop before the next pump. When I stop pumping, the vacuum falls fairly quickly.

When the car gets here later today, I'll try again with the vac pump.

(BTW, I get around 19.25 hg. from the N75 and it holds steadily.)

Either I have a bad N75 to actuator vac hose, or a bad actuator. All of my vac hoses look to be in excellent shape.

In the mean time, I'll continue with the Italian tune-ups after working the actuator with my vac pump.

Hopefully I can free it up without the chemical cleaning.

df
 

dieselfuel

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Alright, I vac pumped the actuator again tonight. I could only pump to about 15-16 hg, and the neddle would slowing fall back to zero.

When I get to 15 hg, and continue to pump, you can feel the actuator rod want to continue to move downward, but it won't budge. It just binds a little, I guess, it moves sideways and not down.

The engine seemed to run smoother through the 2000-3000 rpm range tonight.

Had a hard time getting to 4000 rpm. It hit 3600 and took quite awhile to get to 4000.

Maybe I should stop trying to hit 4000 rpm until I get my TB changed. It has 107,000 miles on it. I'm a little afraid of snapping it. :>(

df
 

Tom W.

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re; loss of vacuum

dieselfuel- replace the vacuum line, test again. If still loosing vacuum, it's the actuator - replace the actuator.
 
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dieselfuel

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Tom,

I will when I do the TB in a few weeks.

Last night, after I excercised the actuator with the vac, I decided to un-plug the MAF and take it for a spin.

The ar ran ALOT better. Not perfect, but alot better.

I still believe the actuator is causing the problem, though.

Maybe by un-plugging the MAF, the ecm didn't throw it into limp mode as often....?

df
 

Red Herring

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Location
Victoria BC
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2004
This thread ROCKS!!!

I am so looking forward to trying this out this weekend!


EDIT** WOW. My vanes were certainly sticking. This was a great tip. The car now has much more even power, and pulls hard right through to red line. No more limp mode either.

Thank you!!!!!
 
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dieselfuel

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ohio
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2003 Jetta TDI
Me too. It's a a nice day today, and I'm really thinking of giving it a go myselt.

I'm going to try and borrow a set of ramps to drive up on. I have a few days I can spare the use of the car, so I don't have to be rushed.

I'll post here if I do and what the results are. :>)

df

BTW, I have Easy Off Grille Cleaner BBQ version. :>)
 

dieselfuel

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2003 Jetta TDI
Bad Actuator

Well Tom, looks like I have a bad actuator.

I removed the hose from the car and attached my vac to the hose and it will hold a vacuum.

I placed the vac directly onto the actuator and it would not hold a vacuum.

So, even though the lever moves, you still think it' s a bad actuator? I guess it makes sence...

I think I'll pick up a new actuator and have it installed when I have the TB done.

df
 

Tom W.

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bad actuator

I suspected as much. If your actuator is bad, or if you have a vacuum leak, your VNT cannot adjust to the higher RPM's, which matches your symptoms. Not to say that you might have sticky vanes, but you have to first fix the actuator.
 

Tom W.

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red herring

Glad to hear from another satisfied TDIer! Did you go in thru the top (EGR) or the bottom(exhaust pipe)?
 

Red Herring

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Tom W. said:
Glad to hear from another satisfied TDIer! Did you go in thru the top (EGR) or the bottom(exhaust pipe)?
Bottom.

Works fantastic!

I tried in vain to get the circlip off the actuator arm, but wound up just using a 14mm open end on it. How do you get those off without buggering them up?
 
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DanG144

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Chapin, South Carolina, USA
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2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
Try to get under the clip with a sharp pick, then pull it out. There is a gap there on the stock ones. You might want to put a piece of tape on it first, so you can find it when it comes flying off.
 

dieselfuel

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Tom,

I have a schedule with a Trusted TDI Mechanic on the 28th. We'll replace the actuator (as well as a TB kit).

I'm curious now if my vanes are even stuck. I'm wondering if just grabbing the rod with a vice-grip and moving it would free up the vanes, if sticking.

I find it hard to believe the vanes are sticking. I have a tendency to "drive it like it's stolen".

Anyhow, I think I'll take my can of E.O. with me on the 28th, just in case. :>)

df
 

Tom W.

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bad actuator

Dieselfuel,
My suspicion too is that it's just a bad actuator.
But, cannot hurt to take along a can of Easy-Off.... Although your mechanic will probably think you're crazy. The Easy-Off method is not widely known- in fact, this thread is the only place on the whole internet I've seen it discussed.
Most all American mechanics will just replace a carboned VNT with a new or re-built unit. The European mechanics are much more likely to try a chemical clean, and indeed have a commercially available product (for a LOT MORE $$$$) that chemically cleans turbos.
 
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