Chemical cleaning for turbo vs removal?

Tom W.

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mash-up GettaTDI150, 1986 Jetta Delux D, 2005 Passat TDI sedan
MMMMdiesel: Way to go! Keep us posted! We need feedback from anyone who tries the Chemical clean method. -to see if our turbos STAY unstuck.
Hopefully, as in AndyBees experience, if we can "exercise" our turbos regularly, they will stay unstuck.
 

Dakovich

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 19, 2005
question: I see you guys are spraying then doing a quick run-up to fling the easy-off around in the turbo, so are you reattaching the exhaust DP before the run-up? if not doesn't all the gunk that gets shot out of the turbo go all over the engine bay???
 

Tom W.

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question: I see you guys are spraying then doing a quick run-up

Best to read carefully thru the posts- you'll get the idea!
 

asnowsquall

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Vermont
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1998 Beetle
Dakovich said:
question: I see you guys are spraying then doing a quick run-up to fling the easy-off around in the turbo, so are you reattaching the exhaust DP before the run-up? if not doesn't all the gunk that gets shot out of the turbo go all over the engine bay???
When I did it my system was totally closed, meaning in my case the blank off plate for my EGR circuit was bolted back on, and I never disconnected the exhaust. So no, nothing came out of my system, until after I let it set all day and fixed the sticky VNT it all came out the exhaust pipe.

Remember that this is basically an experiment, you results may vary.....
Not to be a Richard Head, but please don't cry to me if something goes wrong, you are responsible for what you decide to do with this free info.
It is what it is, basically a short cut.
 

Tom W.

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Experimental approach.

We're all just experimenting. We all have the same problem- clogged/stuck VNT. We all agree that once your VNT is unclogged, drive it HARD to keep it unstuck.

We are all taking different approaches to unsticking our VNTs - just trying to figure out what works.- So far, everyone has had 100% success with their own approach, so there is no one "right" way to do this. The more people who experiment and post, the better for all.
 

Dakovich

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Joined
Nov 19, 2005
I completely understand, I was just wondering if some of you guys had just shot all the gunk back through the Cat and out the exhaust (ala asnowsquall)...in my own experimental adventure I don't think thats what I want to do. to each his own, though.
 

Tom W.

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Latest update: It's been 2 months, and boost is still 100%!!
Boosting 2-3PSI @1000RPM, 20+PSI @ 2200RPM up to redline.
How's everyone else's boost holding up?
 

robiel

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Jul 19, 2009
Location
San Diego
TDI
2001 Jetta
I've a 2001 Jetta TDI that I purchased in 2004 with 70,000 miles on it. From the first I've had an occasional "limp mode" occurence that I attributed to dirty vanes. My actuator travel was about half what it should be and the vanes appeared to be sticking in "turbo" mode - the vanes didn't move down toward the impeller all the way. Very occasionally I would get a P0234 error code thrown which is an overboost condition. This makes sense since the vanes can't relax to their fully inward position when the engine reduces the vacuum to reduce turbo boost. I could actually see this happening using VagCom block 11 which plots requested boost against actual boost. Whenever I got a pulse over 2200 millibar the engine would immediately go into limp mode until I turned it off and on.

The car now has 100K on it and I decided to try Tom's "Easy Off" solution before actually pulling the turbo. I used the Heavy Duty Easy Off and applied it through the exhaust connection in the same way he describes - three applications separated by an hour. After four hours I rinsed out the chamber with a garden hose and started the engine before reconnecting the exhaust. I wanted to blow out any residue and not pump it into the catalytic converter.

I rather unenthusiastically spun the turbo with my gloved finger a few times but certainly not with any confidence it would help. Several of the shots of Easy Off were pretty awesome - I would spray for five or six seconds before the white foam would overflow out the hole. Repeated attempts to free up the vanes using a 14mm wrench on the vane adjusting arm sticking out of the turbo didn't help.

For what it's worth, the water and Easy Off during the rinse process were still milky colored and not jet black with soot as I expected.

I did that about two weeks ago. My problem has been just as bad as ever after the cleaning.

Yesterday I pulled the turbo and dismantled it. I was very surprised to find no traces of soot or baked on carbon. The turbo vane assembly was spotless from top to bottom. I was expecting it to be cleaner toward the bottom since the Easy Off can get there much easier than the top.

My problem turned out to be a factory defect. The vane holder plate is held on with three torx screws and they apparently didn't torque them correctly because one of the vanes was hanging up on the plate. When I removed and replaced the screws the problem disappeared completely. There was no trace of dirt between the plates and a slight mark where the edge of the jamming vane was scratching the outer plate. I could make other vanes hang up the same way be varying the torque on the three screws. The clearance between these vanes and the plates is less than a mil. The action now is so smooth I would question whether I actually was moving the vanes at all! Silky.

Now maybe I never had any significant buildup of carbon but I find that hard to believe because I really baby the car to get good mileage. I was not routinely giving it a goose to burn out the carbon until just before I decided to use Tom's technique. However, I really lead footed it for twenty miles prior to using Easy Off and that probably burned out some of the gook. The previous owner put on 70,000 miles and I have no way of knowing his driving habits. The dealer warranty service records show head work being done at about sixty thousand miles but no description of work performed. It may be that the turbo blew then and I have a new unit with only forty thousand miles. It came off very easily and disassembled with not much pounding. The ONLY carbon I found was a thin film on the plate behind the exhaust impeller. I could wipe it off with my fingers down to bare and slightly rusty metal.

So the verdict? I have to believe the Easy Off removed a significant amount of carbon. Forty thousand miles is more than enough to produce soot. I also am pleased to say that there was no sign of any damage or pitting caused by the Easy Off. The impeller blades, vanes and all the inner workings looked great. If my problem really had been carbon buildup I think the oven cleaner technique would have fixed it.

I wanted to share these observations since most of you won't be pulling your turbo right after a cleaning and I wanted to say that my findings about the use of oven cleaner are positive. It probably helps and it certainly didn't hurt anything.
 
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Canadian_Grizzly

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British Columbia, Canada
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02 Jetta TDI
This is like watching a horror movie and waiting for the next scare. I really do hope it works but I'm very tentative about the methodology. I"ll be watching with white knuckles for the results.
 

Tom W.

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mash-up GettaTDI150, 1986 Jetta Delux D, 2005 Passat TDI sedan
robiel:
You have done all of us on this link an immesurable service in giving us this feedback- Thank you!
 

robiel

New member
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Location
San Diego
TDI
2001 Jetta
You're most welcome - and thank YOU!

You're the one who had the great idea of using oven cleaner! One of the reasons I stick with the VW TDI is all the great ideas and support I find on forums like this one.

I'm happy to report that I've driven 100 plus miles since the turbo went back on and much of that while VagCom block eleven was plotting realtime turbo behavior. The performance now is spot on. Occasionally a small spike of actual over requested but aside from that the two lines lay right on top of each other ninety nine percent of the time. Prior to the fix I was getting an actual pressure several hundred millibar over requested - and it would stay that way until I took my foot off the throttle.

If I ever have to remove the turbo again I'll use your technique to clean it up first. It sure beats PB Blaster and a wire brush. And if I do get sticking vanes due to gunk buildup I feel really comfortable using Easy Off to fix the problem the easy way.

If anyone here figures out how to replace the Easy Off nozzle with one that allows inserting a thin plastic tube (like comes with WD40) please let us know. It would make application much easier.

By the way, McMaster.com has an inexpensive ($7.50) lead based anti-seize compound (1280K1) good to 3000 degrees farenheit! A 2.5 ounce tube should last a long time. I know, I know. Lead. Yuck. But this application uses a really tiny amount so I can live with it. It's actually pretty clever. The lead obviously melts way before 3000 degrees but must create a layer of liquid metal that wicks to the steel threads and stays in place. When it cools it must be soft enough to allow a ready breakaway under torque. 3000 degrees is way hotter than the cast iron body of the turbo chamber or exhaust manifold gets.

One other thing. Kanolabs.com is running a special. Two 12 ounce spray cans of Kroil for twelve bucks and free shipping. I've never used Kroil before but there are lots of favorable comments about it vs: PB Blaster and others. If any of you are looking for it the price seems right.

Thanks again, Tom, for taking the time to share your good idea. Much appreciated.
 
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skatanic

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Sep 23, 2008
Location
Hamilton, ON
TDI
'00 Golf 450k
I had overboost and limp mode and did the turbo cleaning. Here is my before graph showing my overboost condition:



After I did the turbo cleaning with the easy off, my limp mode disappeared. I took a log of the boost today and it is dead on. Here's the log:



Definitely recommend this to anyone who is wondering. No weird sound after, no turbo oil leakage, and it fixed my limp mode!
 

Tom W.

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Wow, great post, skatanic! This is the kind of experience and quality feedback that we need! -Between you and robiel, I think we're all really on to something!
 

dellwas

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Chester Grant, NS
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon
Well I went with the method of keeping the system intact and blowing it out the exhaust. Not by choice, but because I foobared a nut pretty badly, and the only way I'll get the exhaust off is to cut the stud on the turbo. All in all the stuff was in there for 10-12 hours. I also used low air pressure to "whirl" the turbo with my air compressor to spread it around.

However, one of the locals in the Atlantic chapter claims his local VW guru claims that Easy Off will destroy the turbo seals and he's recently had two cars in the shop where this happened.

It was my understanding that the seals were in the center of the turbo and wouldn't come into contact with Easy Off?

Comments?
 

DanG144

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Location
Chapin, South Carolina, USA
TDI
2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
What method of providing oil to your turbo bearings did you use when spinning it with an air compressor?

It is pretty easy to wipe bearings in turbos. I would never spin one with more than a finger tip, unless I had oil flowing to it.

The seals may not be what you are used to. They appear to be a combination of slinger rings and tight clearance/tortuous path sealing methods.

I have suggested using low pressure (maybe 1 psi) air into the oil feed to prevent any cleaners from flowing backwards into the sealing and bearing area. Otherwise I don't believe there is anything to prevent the cleaner from getting into them.

And just to make it clear...I would not do this to a turbo unless I was to the point of doing this or throwing it away (with the catalytic converter). I would always use disassembly and physical cleaning as the method of choice.

In general chemical cleaning on mechanical systems done without a thorough engineering and operational review is just an expensive way of destroying a system.

I would be surprised indeed to learn that enough people were doing this that a shop has seen two of them for chemical cleaning damage, though.
 

Tom W.

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dellwas: Thanks for giving it a try! How about a more complete description? Did you manipulate your actuator? What was the condition before? After? Did you use Easy-off?

The good folks at Garrett Turbo have told us that the turbo seals are made out of metal, and that they are unaffected by the Easy-Off- in fact, according to Garrett there is nothing in the exhaust side of the turbo that is affected by Easy-Off - So, the Mechanic is in error on that one.
Personally, it's been 3 months since I Easy-Offed my turbo, and I've had 100% success YTD.
 
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dellwas

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2003 Jetta Wagon
Hey Tom, thanks for easing my worries, somewhat, but didn't you rinse your's out? Mine was full strength and left in (no rinsing), as I stated, I couldn't get the turbo off the downpipe as I foobared one nut to the extent that I would have to cut the stud off to get the turbo off anyway. So I figured ***! Sprayed the Easy Off Heavy Duty directly into the manifold. Waited and did it again, and repeated the process. I already had the EGR off, as well as the intake for a sound cleaning (not with Easy Off due to it being Aluminum/alloy), so couldn't start the car. Spun the turbo by finger, best I could in the turbo intake and after, with very low air pressure in the turbo intake briefly, 10 seconds or so at a time to help circulate it somewhat. Let it sit overnite, and the next morning worked the actuator back and forth until it freed up totally, and mine had very little movement.

Reassembled and have been driving the snot out of it all week. Can't believe the difference! Also, the car has 193,127K (kilometers) on it. Next time I'll try the spray bottle. I think I'll be able to rig up some type of hose to get further down the intake throat, but then again, knowing my luck it'll fall off!

Tom W. said:
dellwas: Thanks for giving it a try! How about a more complete description? Did you manipulate your actuator? What was the condition before? After? Did you use Easy-off?

The good folks at Garrett Turbo have told us that the turbo seals are made out of metal, and that they are unaffected by the Easy-Off- in fact, according to Garrett there is nothing in the exhaust side of the turbo that is affected by Easy-Off - So, the Mechanic is in error on that one.
Personally, it's been 3 months since I Easy-Offed my turbo, and I've had 100% success YTD.
 
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Tom W.

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Great input, dellwas- keep us posted!
As far a rinsing the turbo, yes I did- but there is no evidence (so far) that it is necessary.
Seems there are 3 common things leading to success, so far:
1. Thuroughly spray inside the turbo(exhaust side) somehow with Easy-Off, and give it some time to work:
2. Work the actuator until it "breaks free" and moves smoothly:
3. "Drive the snot out of it" to keep your turbo clean!

If anyone has some more chemical cleaning experiences, let us know! The more experiments we record here, the better for all of us!
 

dellwas

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2003 Jetta Wagon
I certainly will keep everyone posted....

Tom W. said:
Great input, dellwas- keep us posted!
As far a rinsing the turbo, yes I did- but there is no evidence (so far) that it is necessary.
Seems there are 3 common things leading to success, so far:
1. Thuroughly spray inside the turbo(exhaust side) somehow with Easy-Off, and give it some time to work:
2. Work the actuator until it "breaks free" and moves smoothly:
3. "Drive the snot out of it" to keep your turbo clean!

If anyone has some more chemical cleaning experiences, let us know! The more experiments we record here, the better for all of us!
 

C-Fitt2009

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Location
Delaware, OH
TDI
1999.5 speed, ALH, MKIV
Ok so i removed the turbo from the car and was wondering if I could use the oven cleaner to spray inside the turbo and actuate the vanes manually and then rinse or what is the best way to go about manually cleaning the turbo?
 

Tom W.

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mash-up GettaTDI150, 1986 Jetta Delux D, 2005 Passat TDI sedan
best way to clean your turbo-now that it's off

C-Fitt2009:
Wow- you took your turbo off!

If your actuator doesn't move freely due to carbon build up, chemical cleaning has worked for everyone who has tried it so far- Some rinse out the Easy Off , some don't. I would follow up with a water rinse, and then blow all the water out with compressed air. We all have gone out for a hard drive immediately, in order to blow out anything left in the turbo.

For mechanical cleaning- go here:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=140910

Those of us who have done the chemical clean, have done so because we didn't want to take our turbo off and open it up- we are looking for the simplest, safest, least expensive and quickest way to restore boost.

If you would like to join the experiment, we would love to hear about your results-
 
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dellwas

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2003 Jetta Wagon
As an aside. I'd pull the intake and EGR valve. Mine was partially clogged which probably contributed to poor performance along with the turbo/actuator.

Tom W. said:
C-Fitt2009:
Wow- you took your turbo off!

If your actuator doesn't move freely due to carbon build up, chemical cleaning has worked for everyone who has tried it so far- Some rinse out the Easy Off , some don't. I would follow up with a water rinse, and then blow all the water out with compressed air. We all have gone out for a hard drive immediately, in order to blow out anything left in the turbo.

For mechanical cleaning- go here:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=140910

Those of us who have done the chemical clean, have done so because we didn't want to take our turbo off and open it up- we are looking for the simplest, safest, least expensive and quickest way to restore boost.

If you would like to join the experiment, we would love to hear about your results-
 

C-Fitt2009

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Location
Delaware, OH
TDI
1999.5 speed, ALH, MKIV
dellwas thanks for the recommendation I did that and was wondering if I could chemically clean the turbo even though it is off the car? What would be the best way to go about that? Thanks for your time! :)
 

dellwas

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Location
Chester Grant, NS
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon
For 10 seconds at a time, with 20-30 PSI, I highly doubt it. Sure, if you did it for 5 minutes straight at 80-90 PSI, then maybe, but does anyone really know for sure??? I can see it if you have no oil at 100K turning speed, but with low air pressure I can't see a problem. Mine are certainly fine after 2000K (yes, I put that much on in less than 2 weeks)

DanG144 said:
Please do not spin your turbos without a pressurized oil supply.

Do not blow air through them.

Surely this has a good probability of causing bearing damage.
 
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