Chemical cleaning for turbo vs removal?

Archer

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Feb 24, 2004
Location
Ft. Wayne, Indiana
TDI
2000 Golf
2000 Golf, 118k, 5 spd, 48 mpg - no mods. New vacuum lines, new timing belt kit, no fault codes (VAG COM), no problems with N75 (nkda), clean intake manifold (EGR too), clean snow screen, new fuel filter, new transmission fluid (Redline MTF), clean MAF, timing in the middle of the upper portion of the graph (70) and the IQ is at 4.0
Limp mode before cleaning intake (overboost) & surging boost after cleaning intake = sticky vanes, carbon build up in the turbo. I have read & researched for weeks on this forum (and others) and come to the conclusion that soot & carbon in the turbo account for many of the problems with similar characteristics being experienced by myself (and other TDi owners).
I have looked around for alternative cleaning methods for a carbon packed turbo and came across the Innotec Turbo Clean Set (UK). Also, another fella stated he used Easy Off oven cleaner (wow). Both of these methods only require disconnecting the down tube from the exhaust side of the turbo, filling the turbo with chemical (literally), actuating the vanes, waiting an hour and rinsing it out. Anyone else have info on this? Links to Innotec, other forum provided. Thx.
http://www.innotecworld.com/default.aspx
http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=157275
 

visionlogic

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Daphne, AL, USA
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2002 Jetta TDI
I'm very interested in the Innotec kit, but considering that I'm in the US I'm wondering if I could even get it shipped here.

Another approach I am considering as a DIY is this:

EDIT: 4 MAY 09 - DISREGARD THE FOLLOWING - SEE POST #4 BELOW


1. Construct a simple adapter with a nipple to mate to the turbo exhaust output flange. Unbolt the downpipe and hook up the adapter.

2. Take a piece of clear tubing and hook one end to the nipple on the adapter. Form the rest of the tubing into a "U" shape and feed the free end of the "U" tubing up so that its open end is above the level of the exhaust manifold, and secure it temporarily in that position.

3. Get some of this stuff - "Piston Kleen"

4. Using a funnel, gently pour the Piston Kleen down the open end of the clear tubing. Watching the fluid in the tube carefully, make sure that the level in the clear tube does not fill up enough to reach over the bottom edge of the exhaust manifold - you don't want the fluid going above the top level of the turbo and through the manifold into your head. You have now effectively filled the exhaust side of the turbo with the Piston Kleen.

5. Using whatever means you choose - by hand, by MityVac, by vac pump - work the turbo vane actuator numerous times over a couple of hours while the Piston Kleen does its work.

6. Detach the clear tube from the adapter nipple & drain the Piston Kleen. Reattach the clear tube and fill the tube with water for a rinse, again watching the level of the fluid in the tube. Do this several times for a good rinse. Piston Kleen is water soluble so this should work satisfactorily.

7. Remove the adapter. Reattach the downpipe. Take her for a spin and assess the effectiveness, or lack thereof, of your experiment.

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS ALL THEORHETICAL! I HAVE NOT DONE THIS MYSELF AND TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DAMAGE YOU MAY DO IF YOU ATTEMPT THIS.

DISCLAIMER #2: I am in no way, shape or form affiliated in any manner with the makers/sellers of the product "Piston Kleen".
 
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Drivbiwire

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If you pour in enough fluid that it rises above the shaft support seal, whatever it is you are using is draining right into the motor...

Pouring ANYTHING into a turbo (compressor or turbine) should never be done.

The only thing I would entertain is a compressor washing using brake cleaner or walnut shells being sprayed into a running turbo (ONLY at idle), aside from that turbo comes off the car!

DB
 

whitedog

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Bend, Oregon
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2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
Labyrinth seals are also found on pistons, which use them to store oil and seal against combustion explosions, as well as on other non-rotating shafts.
Never thought of piston seals as labyrinth seals. I can see it though.
 

Tom W.

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Raleigh, NC
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mash-up GettaTDI150, 1986 Jetta Delux D, 2005 Passat TDI sedan
Chemical turbo cleaners:
You can get the Innotec turbo cleaner from Innotec, but it is expensive- I've got a quote for one kit for $42 plus $124 shipping from England to the USA. Buying 6 kits, the cost drops to $173 plus $160 shipping ( $55.50 per kit) You can also sometimes get it from the internet, ebay.co.uk -I've seen it for $70 US, including shipping.
You not only need to remove the carbon, but also the rust.
Carbon removers: Easy-off or other lye based cleaners, carbolic acid,
Berryman B-9 chem dip, methylene chloride, etc.
Rust removers: muratic acid, ridrust, strongarm penetrating oil, evaporust, etc.
I'd like to chemically clean my turbo too- but am still weighing options.
 

Tom W.

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mash-up GettaTDI150, 1986 Jetta Delux D, 2005 Passat TDI sedan
Also, another fella stated he used Easy Off oven cleaner

I found that post- guy said it worked! So I tried some Easy Off Barbecue Cleaner on a really crudded up old spark plug- after 2 hours, rinsed it in warm water- totally removed the carbon!
Then I took the plug, soaked it in a solution of 70% water/ 30% Behr Concrete Cleaner(phosphoric acid) - after 2 hours, some of the rust was gone, so I left it overnight- ALL the rust was gone! Metal was left intact and unaffected with a kind of grey color- I'm guessing this is the phosphor chemically bonding to the steel, which prevents further rust.
Hmm, I'm tempted- especially since I don't see much down side.
What is the worst that can happen? If it doesn't work, I'll still have to pull my turbo and manually clean it.
I'm thinking I pull the exhaust, spray in Easy Off, give it 2 hours, then a warm water rinse, followed by phosphoric acid for the night, then another rinse. Maybe disconnect the turbo oil return line, put a pan under it to see if I get any leakage past the oil seal- if I do, it would drain into my pan, not the crankcase.

Heck, I could even leave the oil and exaust disconnected, briefly start the car to purge anything left in the turbo, then reconnect everything and see if it works!

Any comments out there?
 

Archer

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Location
Ft. Wayne, Indiana
TDI
2000 Golf
Sounds interesting. I imagine you'll want to actuate the vanes during the "soak" cycles and increase the acid concentration. Will you fabricate a cover to keep the cleaner in?
 

Tom W.

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mash-up GettaTDI150, 1986 Jetta Delux D, 2005 Passat TDI sedan
Fabricate a cover

Yes, some kind of simple, chemical-proof cover- maybe some waterproof plastic-coated cardboard or thin sheet of plastic, held on by the existing 3 exhaust bolts and flange. Not needed for the Easy-off- this stuff really clings- but needed for the phosphoric acid. And, yes, actuate the vanes.

Maybe I'll try it tonight if the weather holds- I am so sick and tired of driving a car with no boost.
 

Powder Hound

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Please be very cautious if you are dealing with phosphoric acid. It removes grease and oil also. Spilled on flesh will turn everything it can into soap, and if that means eating holes in you to do so, it can.
 

Tom W.

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mash-up GettaTDI150, 1986 Jetta Delux D, 2005 Passat TDI sedan
nasty chemicals

Ya, the oven cleaner is prety nasty stuff too- didn't know abt phosphoric acid turning oil -and flesh- into soap. Thanks for the heads up! Makes it even more important to pull the turbo's oil returne line.
Went under the car tonight- got a late start- man, getting to those 3 bolts holding the exhaust flange is going to be a bugger!
I did find that I had a loose engine mount bolt, and that the pipe going from the turbo to the FMIC was scraping the drive shaft, so I fixed those 2 items while I still had light.
Maybe tomorrow I'll don the goggles and gloves and hazard suit, and spray that turbo.
 

Tom W.

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mash-up GettaTDI150, 1986 Jetta Delux D, 2005 Passat TDI sedan
Going for it tonight!

Ok, I'm doing it. I've got at MOST 1-2PSI boost @ 3800 rpm- the rest of the time, zero boost. Hooked the actuator tube to my vacuum pump, and the arm moves MAYBE 1/8 inch.
2 hours to remove 3 bolts holding the exhaust onto the turbo. 30 seconds to remove the turbo oil return line.
Don my Hasmat outfit(suit, gloves, goggles) spray the turbo to overflowing w Easy Off Barbecue Cleaner. wait a minute, do it again, reach a finger into the turbo and turn the turbine. Spray again. Climb up top,try the vacuum pump- No improvement to the actuator. try it again, and again. SUCCESS!!!!! it suddenly moved abt 1/2 inch!!!!!
Climb under car, spray, turn turbine w finger, spray again, back up top, try the actuator- WOW!!!! FULL RANGE OF MOVEMENT!!!!!!
Wait 3 hours, make a block-off plate for the turbo using a piece of foam and the exhaust gasket, don hasmat outfit, spray turbo w water from high pressure garden hose to clean out Easy-Off. Try actuator again- still have full range of movement!!!!
Time to fill the turbo w some water/phosphoric acid, leave it overnight, see what happens!!
 
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Tom W.

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mash-up GettaTDI150, 1986 Jetta Delux D, 2005 Passat TDI sedan
Phosphoric acid

Climbed under the car this AM- my block-off plate didn't work well- abt 1/2 the Phosphoric acid leaked out. So, I gave the turbine a 1/2 spin- so the other half can soak- topped it with the rest of the solution.(Experimenting w rusty spark plugs I found a 10-15% solution leaves the metal rust free, and a grey phosphor coating- any more and the metal goes rust free, and black)
The actuator had full range of motion after 5-10 minutes of Easy-off, probably didn't need to do the phosphoric acid, but I figured "what the heck"- if there is any rust in there, it's gone now- plus the phosphor coating will hopefully keep things from rusting in the future.

Need to get some new flange nuts and some nuclear grade anti-sieze for the bolt-up. Can't wait to see if this works!
 

TDIfor

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Drivbiwire said:
The only thing I would entertain is a compressor washing using brake cleaner or walnut shells being sprayed into a running turbo (ONLY at idle),...
DB
Uhhh...... why is shooting something solid into a running turbo not making sense to me....????????
 

Tom W.

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finished!

Put it all back together, 1 hour.

1 can Easy-Off ..........$4.00
3 new exhaust flange nuts........$8
Total restoration of my boost.........PRICELESS!!!!!!

Now let's just see how long it lasts!- My turbo was modded by the previous owner, so boost starts kicking abt 1000-1200 RPM, 20 PSI by 2200RPM, don't know how high she'll go, but I plan to find out soon! he he!!
 
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Jack Frost

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TDIfor said:
Uhhh...... why is shooting something solid into a running turbo not making sense to me....????????
Walnut shells, for some reason make a good abrasive. I know scuba shops use walnut shells to remove rust by tumbling them inside scuba tanks. Unlike chemicals, the shells do not interact with the base metal and don't leave a residue behind. Breathing from clean scuba tanks is important for scuba divers.

One thing that has not being mentioned is the interaction between the clearning solutions that are being advocated and aluminum parts. Does oven cleaner contain sodium hydroxide (aka lye)? I think some might as it cuts through grease pretty good. That stuff will dissolve aluminum to produce hydrogen.
 

Tom W.

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mash-up GettaTDI150, 1986 Jetta Delux D, 2005 Passat TDI sedan
That stuff will dissolve aluminum to produce hydrogen.

Yes, it will. What parts of the exhaust side of the turbo are aluminum? I'm guessin that none of the parts are aluminum, as aluminum doesn't stand up to exhaust heat very well.
If anything is made out of aluminum, it's probably pretty thick.
One way to find out what Easy-off will do to aluminum is to spray some on an aluminum can, wait 3 hours, and see what happens. -Which I did, tore apart a coke can, left the Easy-Off in the can 24 hours- no affect on the aluminum can.
 
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Archer

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2000 Golf
Turbo 2-step

Congrats Tom! Please keep us informed of the longevity of "the cure". Now, if we could find a self-foaming rust remover to replace the phosphoric acid... Maybe skip the acid, and shoot a bunch of PB Blaster in there while actuating the vanes?
 

Tom W.

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mash-up GettaTDI150, 1986 Jetta Delux D, 2005 Passat TDI sedan
Any other experimenters out there?

Thanks, Archer!

I suspect there are a lot of things that would work. I experimented w some crudded up spark plugs first- I figured if it would take off the baked carbon and rust of an old spark plug, it would do the job on the exhaust side of a VNT.

You might try some PB Blaster -
I think we'd all love to hear abt anyone else's experiments!

I am now boosting from 900 RPM (2-4PSI) all the way up to 4500RPM(20PSI)- The performance is AMAZING!!!!

I'm hoping that if I drive more agressively, the turbo will stay "clean".- I'll post back if the turbo crashes.
 
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DanG144

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2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
Tom,
Did you do anything to keep the cleaning fluids out of the seal area?

I was thinking of possibly using a 1 or 2 psi air feed to the oil supply tube, if I ever tried this. (I would prefer to do the mechanical cleaning and refurbishing.)

Dan
 

Tom W.

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mash-up GettaTDI150, 1986 Jetta Delux D, 2005 Passat TDI sedan
Did you do anything to keep the cleaning fluids out of the seal area?

No, I just disconnected the oil return line at the (bottom) oil pan side of things, and let it hang down into a pan.
There was no discernable fluid, either from the Easy-Off or the phosphoric acid/water mix in the pan after cleaning.

Great idea abt hooking up a 1-2PSI line to the oil line! Would you block off the other oil line in order to maintain pressure?
Also, maybe you could come up with a good way to seal off the turbo, since my method leaked.

I figured I had nothing to loose trying the chemical experiment- my turbo was producing zero boost. If the chemicals didn't work, I'd be doing the mechanical cleaning/rebuild route right now.

My turbo is working PERFECTLY now! I'm going to see what my car will do the 0-60mph tonight. Seat-of-the-pants, it feels like somewhere in the 6 second range!
 

mmmmdiesel

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Ottawa
Hydrolock concern

Interesting. How did you ensure all the liquid (Easy Off + Phosphoric Acid + water) was extracted? I'd be worried about hydrolock in the biggest way. I'd be really nervous starting up unless I was 100% certain the turbo was dry. If not, here's what can happen to your connecting rods: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrolock if liquids go through the air intake manifold.

I realize you are cleaning the exhauist side of the turbo (turbine + vanes), but if the seal betwen the intake and exhaust side isn't perfect and liquid goes to the intake side, trouble could follow. Hopefully the Easy Off didn't harm any of the seals. Engine over run and hydrolock by engine oil itself may also be possible down the road if the seals are weakened.

Does anyone think hydrolock is a possible result of doing this "procedure"?

BTW, is the "fix" still working?

The vanes on mine don't have the full range of motion. I do have fairly good boost pressure, but it goes into to safe mode. Especially when at higher speeds if I back off the accelerator to a cruising speed or when accelerating to the floor from say 100km/hr+ to try reach 120km/hr it will enter safe mode at say 118km/hr.

Most people are mechanically cleaning or replacing the turbo with a new or rebuilt core. If Easy Off BBQ cleaner works, that's pretty amazing.

Personally I think the Phosphoric Acid step is not required. Probably the carbon build up, more so than the rust is likely causing the vanes on these turbos to stick.
 

Archer

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2000 Golf
Turbo seals, hydrolock

I think a discussion on the specifics of the "seals" is in order - I am not that guy. Gut feeling, I can't imagine enough water slipping past the bearing, making it past the oil return line and creeping into the intake side of the turbo to create a problem. Tom stated he didn't have any discernable amount of fluids to report from the oil drain line. The Innotec turbo clean kit uses the same principle and has gained a lot of support from the european realm. Gotta agree that carbon is the likely enemy here. Rust - not so much.
 

Dakovich

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Nov 19, 2005
I had my turbo off recently, had planned to mechanically clean it but tried the chemical way first. At first I had almost NO movement of the vanes. Sprayed a whole bunch of PB Blaster in there and let it drain out as I was doing it. I didn't seal it up and let it sit. Almost instantly I had FULL motion of the vanes. There was one point where it stuck, but otherwise very smooth and full motion of the vanes. Reinstalled, along with EGR delete, and Racepipe and it ran great for a few days. No more smoke, great boost, everything looked good. Currently, couple weeks later, my vanes are binding up again. I can get them moving by hand but they are sticking at around the same point as earlier. I have to decide what to do now, either romove the turbo again and spray it, or do the mechanical cleaning. Not to keen on the chemical cleaning with the turbo attached, I liked the fact I allowed the chemical to drain itself out as I was spraying it. Think I just should have done it more.
 

Dakovich

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Nov 19, 2005
thanks, I'm thinking I'm more or less better off taking the thing apart and doing what you said. I was hopeful that another bout of chemical cleaning would do, but I might as well just do it up right.
 

Archer

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Ft. Wayne, Indiana
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2000 Golf
PB or not PB, that is the question.

Dakovich, did you use any oven cleaner or just PB blaster? The oven cleaner will remove the carbon, I don't believe PB alone will. Pure speculation here - the PB "burned off" leaving the carbon deposits and the original problem in place. I'm not against removal and mechanical cleaning, just against all the time and effort. If you remove it again and mechanically clean it, please keep us posted as to your findings. Thanks for the feedback, and best of luck.
 
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