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Old August 16th, 2019, 21:48   #46
jackbombay
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The rub comes when someone wants to force me to validate their choices...
Nobody is doing that.

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I DIY'd the timing belt for less than $300 a new battery for even a Leaf would have been around $6000.
When 2003 TDI's were new, a new engine would have been $6000 too, but that didn't stop people from buying them.
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Old August 17th, 2019, 03:48   #47
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Errors in Jalopnik articles are the norm. They're more clickbait than substance.
So true. Barely re-digested press releases, incomplete summaries of marketing events, plagiarized restatements of news stories...that is most of what you see in automotive web and blog articles. When I see links I rarely even bother to click through, because I know they're either incomplete, biased, or just plain wrong.

I've posted this before: If I needed a vehicle (and look at my sig, another vehicle is the last thing I need right how) I'd consider an EV for daily driving. A Chevy Bolt would get the job done for me. However, it's hard to justify spending $36K on a Bolt when my 17 year old Jetta Wagon does the job better, costs about $.07/mile for fuel, and is fun to drive. Insurance is cheap, excise tax is nothing, and it has a manual transmission, which I still prefer by far. It's most likely fully depreciated. Purchasing or leasing a new EV can't come close to that car's overall cost.
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Old August 17th, 2019, 06:18   #48
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I don’t know that there is hatred. Just impatience and annoyance with those who would worship at the feet of Muskie and think that he and they have all the answers for questions that many of us just don’t care about.

I think several people here drive an electric vehicle and this is America, last time I looked. You can drive any car you want and think any way you wish. The rub comes when someone wants to force me to validate their choices, I prefer diesel and this is a diesel forum.

If someone feels compelled to “crap post” about EV’s on a diesel forum expect to “inhale some diesel smoke.” (Get some blowback)
Bingo, this is TDIclub, not Teslaclub or EVclub. The site resources are to support the discussion of TDIs not EVs. A certain person above should have been banned off the site a long time ago but somehow keeps going wasting bandwidth.


Yet another diesel discussion thread ruined by this EV shill.
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Old August 17th, 2019, 10:52   #49
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Nobody is doing that.



When 2003 TDI's were new, a new engine would have been $6000 too, but that didn't stop people from buying them.

And provided you change the timing belt etc. when called for, it's pretty unlikely you'll need to spend $6k for a new engine. With an electric car the battery life is around 10 years, you might get lucky and get 12 before you have to lay out $6k or more for a new battery. That's why the price of a used early Leaf is largely determined by it's remaining battery capacity.
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Old August 17th, 2019, 11:21   #50
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I can see why nwdiver is somewhat of a lightning rod for unpleasant comments in this diesel forum, but we're better than that, right? We shouldn't fault the guy for acting on his convictions. Just ignore him if you don't like what he has to say. No need to be nasty about it.
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Old August 17th, 2019, 12:43   #51
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I saw a leaf plugged in at Sonic the other day, not even a charging station, I just laughed knowing i didn't need fuel for several days.
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Old August 17th, 2019, 12:56   #52
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I can see why nwdiver is somewhat of a lightning rod for unpleasant comments in this diesel forum, but we're better than that, right? We shouldn't fault the guy for acting on his convictions. Just ignore him if you don't like what he has to say. No need to be nasty about it.
This. I totally agree with you, but full disclosure I also drive an electric Fiat 500e daily and two of my TDI's are up on blocks.

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Old August 17th, 2019, 13:20   #53
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So true. Barely re-digested press releases, incomplete summaries of marketing events, plagiarized restatements of news stories...that is most of what you see in automotive web and blog articles. When I see links I rarely even bother to click through, because I know they're either incomplete, biased, or just plain wrong.

I've posted this before: If I needed a vehicle (and look at my sig, another vehicle is the last thing I need right how) I'd consider an EV for daily driving. A Chevy Bolt would get the job done for me. However, it's hard to justify spending $36K on a Bolt when my 17 year old Jetta Wagon does the job better, costs about $.07/mile for fuel, and is fun to drive. Insurance is cheap, excise tax is nothing, and it has a manual transmission, which I still prefer by far. It's most likely fully depreciated. Purchasing or leasing a new EV can't come close to that car's overall cost.
I've considered a Fiat 500e because they're so cheap on the used market, and according to VeeDubTDI, they did a good job of ticking the right boxes for longevity of an EV drivetrain. In particular proper thermal management of the batteries. Really good bang for the buck, just a very short range.

But the fact that I can't charge at home is making it a hard sell at the moment. Just not in that position right now.

But, I have driven a 500e and while on the highway it was a little underwhelming, around town it's a total riot. Go-kart like steering, plenty of torque to get up and go, park it anywhere, and my long torso actually fit comfortably enough, which is increasingly rare these days.

Instead, I'll keep on fixing up whatever random TDI people in the area give up on and are willing to let go for next to nothing and if the stable gets too large, sell one... or two. But that's also me, being that I can fix my own, I have a hard time justifying spending the money on something new and get hammered by the depreciation. I'm not in the majority with that one I'm sure.
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Old August 17th, 2019, 14:06   #54
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And provided you change the timing belt etc. when called for, it's pretty unlikely you'll need to spend $6k for a new engine.
With an electric car the battery life is around 10 years...
10 years? So people are driving 40k miles a year? See Casioqv's post below.

The Leaf is an electric car which seems to have battery life issues which seems to be why you have singled out the leaf as your example of electric cars, stacking the deck in your favor. A more broad look at EV battery life paints a different picture though. Also, as the technology matures battery life will only get better.

FWIW, I bought my 2003 TDI Jetta Wagon new, no plans to sell it, but I also think EV tech is really cool stuff and look forward to watching it evolve over the coming years. I'm sure at some point in my life I'll own an EV, but I don't need to buy one now as currently my vehicle needs are met.

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So if EV batteries were used like cell phone batteries at full charge-discharge, they'd only last 40k miles, but I would expect around 400k life from an EV with proper software and/or an owner that carefully manages charge levels. That seems to be consistent with what high mileage modern EVs are reporting as shown in the post above (400k battery life). This would likely double again to ~800k mile life if you do only short trips in a small town and drop the full charge level via software to 75% of full capacity or so.
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Old August 17th, 2019, 17:36   #55
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The Leaf is an electric car which seems to have battery life issues which seems to be why you have singled out the leaf as your example of electric cars, stacking the deck in your favor. A more broad look at EV battery life paints a different picture though. Also, as the technology matures battery life will only get better.

FWIW, I bought my 2003 TDI Jetta Wagon new, no plans to sell it, but I also think EV tech is really cool stuff and look forward to watching it evolve over the coming years. I'm sure at some point in my life I'll own an EV, but I don't need to buy one now as currently my vehicle needs are met.

Yea, the leaf seems to have thermal issues which kill the batteries. I'm surprised the e-Golf doesn't seem to, since they didn't include any battery cooling system. On the e-golf forum one guy tracked his battery degradation level and saw 2% capacity loss per year.


If you're still living in the mountains, that's a pretty rough environment for an EV... cold temps plus steep grades drastically reduce the range.
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Old August 17th, 2019, 21:22   #56
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The cost of fuel to move our passenger vehicles is too low currently in the USA to make 'EVs show up in the radar' in the foreseeable future.

Ok so Tesla sells all the vehicles they make and so does GM/Ford/Toyota/etc. sell every huge (and not so huge) SUV/truck they make. So what? What conclusion are you reaching with this comparison? What is the point? Millions and millions and millions of vehicles that do routinely 20 MPG, ok sorry 15 MPG vs thousands and thousands of sedans (plus a few SUVs) that do above 100 MPG!

I am not sure I understand the logic of the poster (#8).
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Old August 17th, 2019, 21:46   #57
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Yea, the leaf seems to have thermal issues which kill the batteries. I'm surprised the e-Golf doesn't seem to, since they didn't include any battery cooling system. On the e-golf forum one guy tracked his battery degradation level and saw 2% capacity loss per year.
Thanks for the info!

The average lifespan of cars in the US 11.7 years and around 175k miles, so if the battery does "only" make it to 200,000 miles there's a good chance that is 25,000 miles longer than it needed to last.

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If you're still living in the mountains, that's a pretty rough environment for an EV... cold temps plus steep grades drastically reduce the range.
Yea, still in the mountains, but I have a garage that is heated by a greenhouse, rarely goes below 40* in there. I'm totally happy with my TDI still, and by the time I do end up with an electric car I'll likely not be living here anymore.
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Old August 18th, 2019, 07:07   #58
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If you're still living in the mountains, that's a pretty rough environment for an EV... cold temps plus steep grades drastically reduce the range.
Al least you're getting regen going down the mountain.
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Old August 18th, 2019, 13:47   #59
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Al least you're getting regen going down the mountain.
You'd be really surprised to see how well that actually works!

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Old August 18th, 2019, 14:08   #60
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I've considered a Fiat 500e because they're so cheap on the used market, and according to VeeDubTDI, they did a good job of ticking the right boxes for longevity of an EV drivetrain. In particular proper thermal management of the batteries. Really good bang for the buck, just a very short range.

Spot on, I did a ton of research before buying mine used (lease return.) They learned from all the early electric Mini mistakes, and it's a great city car and that's all I need right now. I can run all over LA all day long and plug it in at home. Done. It's definitely not a road trip car, at least not yet.

A friend has one with Abarth wheels and tires, he looses and average distance of about 5 miles per charge, but the handling on the freeway is far superior to mine, so much so that I'm considering it when it's time for new tires.

I have no interest in converting anybody here, but with something like 16 States in the Union that have all adopted CARB standards auto dealers have to sell zero emission vehicles or they're out of the market in the states that comply.

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