8V TDI common rail - interested?

Thanks Ryan, I'm curious about those GTD injectors.It looks like a solenoid injector is the best option.

I have since acquired some other injector cores through ebay to compare.The second one in is from a Renault application and the last one is a crafter 2.5L.The 3rd and 4th injectors were from Dave.The Renault injector body could be the best match so far.

The first 3 common rail injectors use DSLA nozzles however they wouldn't work without a custom nozzle.The problem so far is the nozzle orientation to the injector body.I don't know how much it would cost to have custom one off nozzles made ?

The fuel inlet fitting points towards the ALH cyl head when the nozzle is correctly orientated to the piston.

Well for your racecar application, you won't be going with nozzles for normal street TDIs anyway. Whether DSLA, DLLA, etc. (I'm guessing these refer to the style of the sac and other design details), but I have to believe that one DSLA nozzle should fit into another injector body that also uses a DSLA nozzle regardless of the OEM. The needle and nozzle serve the same function, regardless whether VE, PD or CR; it's only how the needle lifts off the seat that differs. If the diameters are the same (this much I'm sure they are) and the locating pins line-up and lengths are the compatible, then ostensibly you can put VE TDI nozzles onto CR bodies.

Great find on the Renault injector, BTW.

Andy the alfa 1.9 jtd injectors are a straight fit in the ve heads

Why not go crafter? Cyl head is 1:1 with the old 2.5 tdi from the 90'ies

The Crafter injectors were ruled out early in the project proposal due to 1) complexity of the Piezo stack; 2) DLLA nozzles. For Andy's project, it could still work. 1) above can be easily solved just by getting a Crafter ECU as well. 2) is solved if one can find a place that can open up the nozzle holes bigly without it costing a fortune. I recall one or more places that could wire EDM or Extrudehone injectors, just reworking the original nozzles. While you're at it, it might be useful also to open up the internal passages in the injector body as well to get more flow.

Why a crafter ecu? Take a edc17cp14 from a 2,0 tdi. mount crank and cam sensor and you good to go?

Andy2, do you have a CR fuel rail, pressure sensor, and lines? I might have a few spares kicking around.... I have an AHU I'd like to convert also.

shortysclimbin said:

Andy2, do you have a CR fuel rail, pressure sensor, and lines? I might have a few spares kicking around.... I have an AHU I'd like to convert also.

Click to expand...

I have one rail that I got from Dave and I can't remember what he said it was from.I could get my hands on an LBZ duramax rail with sensor as they run a factory 26,000 psi system.

The other thing is getting a relief valve to protect from an over pressure condition.I see that the aftermarket has mechanical relief valves..

http://www.tcdiesel.com/Pages/default.aspx

not required imo? just make a current limiter on the PCV solenoid.

lol dude. please don't talk about something you do not truly understand.

-problem with the small bowl is easily solved with crafter piston. its near drop in, wide bowl, low cr.

-do you know how a PCV valve works in a bosch system? ... clearly not... it is a spring loaded relieve with a opening pressure op approx 150 bar. there is a solenoid to help the spring keeping the valve closed. more current means more pressure. most PCVs fround in modern (1800 bar for example) Bosch sytem can hold around 2k8 bar at 1.8 amps.

if this might eventually reach your understanding, you will understand that limiting the current is the perfect way to limit the rail pressure by relieving it to the return

also talking in this topic about 9 injections per cycle. give me a break.. if these guys can run 1, maybe 2 pilot injections with good control over quantity I reckon they will be more than happy.

for cost reason almost all small engines here in europe switched back to solenoid. and no they arent doing 9 injections, normlly 3 in normal combustion, and 2-3 extra during dpf regen or DeNOx or DeSOx. for semi agressive catalyst heating most split the main in 2 parts, called early post or split main.

Respectfully... Actually I do happen to know just a teeny tiny bit about the subject.

The 9 events mention was only to show capability... And yes a pilot and main are all that's needed.. in truth.. just a main injection event. The pilot is just for combustion noise.

My response was prompted to the simple foolishness in not considering a mechanical safeguard and relying on restricting electrical currents... Why is that? Its subject to failure. Both are actually. But redundancy saves the day and a lot cash when parts melt.

However, I will admit for some reason I had the thought in my head that you were restricting the current to the FCA which is a pulse width controlled solenoid used to regulate the fuel to the pump... Sorry.. all I could think of was how stupid one could think that reducing the fuel supply would be a solution.. in that regards, my bad and my apologies.

When a high pressure injector sticks things go bad really fast... Unfortunately on this side of the pond we have to deal with that reality because we don't get near the quality of diesel fuel you guys get.

The crafter pistons...They are nice.. But they fail to solve the problem of the injector angle in relation to the bowl under high pressures. You will still erode the piston in time on one side just by the spray alone . You need center placement in the bowl and perpendicular nozzle alignment to make it work properly at these pressures. But then again, I don't truly understand...

I actually hope the project works out... best of luck keeping it together.

Rub87 said:

not required imo? just make a current limiter on the PCV solenoid.

Click to expand...

I was thinking that it would be one less thing to have to control/tune.If it's easy enough for you to adjust the factory limiter to hold more without any leakage then I'd be more than fine with that.I'll just look for a vw rail and lines to see how that fits together on the ALH head.

Do you know if the early solenoid injectors can handle 26,000-28,000 psi without too much worry ?

I'd be interested in the later solenoid type injectors If they can run higher pressure however I doubt that they still use the old school DSLA style nozzle which would be cheaper to get custom ones made for this application.

If/when I go ahead with this I would you like you to tune it for me.

Ideally id go for a edc17c46 then from vw. if you use a 038 block you can use crank seal from cr engine and then its just a matter of putting the cam sensor on it.

Hp pump and inj are free to choose but ideally one could start with injectors with a known durationmap to get it running correctly first.

As for pilot and timing strategy as a baseline this can all be taken from crafter as its made for this 1:1 bowl/chamber/cr

The mechanical safegaurd is really something to worry about when having no understanding of how to make the rail pressure regulation work. And no it wont save a thing when an injector sticks open unlike what above is suggested.

Also this:

However, I will admit for some reason I had the thought in my head that you were restricting the current to the FCA which is a pulse width controlled solenoid used to regulate the fuel to the pump... Sorry.. all I could think of was how stupid one could think that reducing the fuel supply would be a solution.. in that regards, my bad and my apologies.

What you are confusing it with is the metering unit, on the hp pump. Both can be used to control fuel flow and pressure of the rail. But the pcv has the greatest autority to govern rail pressure. Even of you unplug metering unit (max flow) and unplug pcv (min pressure) you will still not get much of railpressure in the rail.

This being said. If one wants to only rely on the metering unit to regulate pressure its a simple matter of supplying the pcv with a fixed duty cycle (that results in a certain average current) to obtains a certain pressure at which the pcv relieves the railP

These newer Solenoid injectors have a left hand threaded collar holding the Nozzle in place, this is unique apparently so my injector shop damaged the injector removing the Nozzle.

So basically this injector is scrap, I'm happy to donate this to the project. Im a few £100 down but it was my fault for asking them to take the nozzle out to check the number for you guys! hahaha

I'm trying to get more info from the nozzle number (F00V W30 098) that will help identify what we can fit on there.

Rub87 said:

Ideally id go for a edc17c46 then from vw. if you use a 038 block you can use crank seal from cr engine and then its just a matter of putting the cam sensor on it.

Hp pump and inj are free to choose but ideally one could start with injectors with a known duration map to get it running correctly first.

As for pilot and timing strategy as a baseline this can all be taken from crafter as its made for this 1:1 bowl/chamber/cr

The mechanical safegaurd is really something to worry about when having no understanding of how to make the rail pressure regulation work. And no it wont save a thing when an injector sticks open unlike what above is suggested.

Also this:

This being said. If one wants to only rely on the metering unit to regulate pressure its a simple matter of supplying the pcv with a fixed duty cycle (that results in a certain average current) to obtains a certain pressure at which the pcv relieves the railP

Click to expand...

So even though the crafter is a peizo system you can still use the same pilot and timing strategy as a baseline for a soleniod ecu/injector ?

I wouldn't mind having just a single injection event system.A pilot event might not even be possible at the rpm I require to just spool the turbo's on the line anyhow.

The bowel in my pistons should work with the CR injector and just keep the same ALH spray angle.

I'm currently running 5 holes at .017" with the mechanical system.Perhaps that could stay the same or go with smaller holes.

A Pressure control valve wasn't used on some or mabye any of the cp3 systems over here for some reason? For example the 2003 to current 5.9/6.7 cummins with cp3 still used a mechanical relief.Oddly enough the duramax started to use the PCV at the same time they started to use the cp4 in 2011.

Sorry for all the questions Ruben.

ryanp said:

These newer Solenoid injectors have a left hand threaded collar holding the Nozzle in place, this is unique apparently so my injector shop damaged the injector removing the Nozzle.

So basically this injector is scrap, I'm happy to donate this to the project. Im a few £100 down but it was my fault for asking them to take the nozzle out to check the number for you guys! hahaha

I'm trying to get more info from the nozzle number (F00V W30 098) that will help identify what we can fit on there.

Click to expand...

Who would have guessed that it would be a left hand thread ?That must have been done in an attempt to keep people like us out

Thank you very much for your efforts Ryan.I wouldn't mind having that core.At that price for the core they must really want them back !

andy2 said:

Who would have guessed that it would be a left hand thread ?That must have been done in an attempt to keep people like us out

Thank you very much for your efforts Ryan.I wouldn't mind having that core.At that price for the core they must really want them back !

Click to expand...

It seems so. Its a brand new injector so thats why its even more sad, hahaha

Let me know where you want it shipping and if you want some other parts, that would be even better!

I have a few sets of these injectors and can do a deal if i keep the nozzles and you need the bodies!

Speak soon

ryanp said:

These newer Solenoid injectors have a left hand threaded collar holding the Nozzle in place, this is unique apparently so my injector shop damaged the injector removing the Nozzle.

So basically this injector is scrap, I'm happy to donate this to the project. Im a few £100 down but it was my fault for asking them to take the nozzle out to check the number for you guys! hahaha

I'm trying to get more info from the nozzle number (F00V W30 098) that will help identify what we can fit on there.

Click to expand...

Yes, I speak for and with Andy in thanking you in the name of advancing the knowledge base.

ryanp said:

Let me know where you want it shipping and if you want some other parts, that would be even better!

I have a few sets of these injectors and can do a deal if i keep the nozzles and you need the bodies!

Speak soon

Click to expand...

Pm'd,thanks.I just got my Gibonta nozzles from you about 2 weeks ago

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cp3

Are all CP3 the same size?
(R70)
Old VP (1Z AFN AHU)
fits nicely just need a little rub

New VP (ALH ASV AHF)
fits badly needs to cut a bit inside

Maybe the best option is to run it outside like the steering pump