VW Still Believes In Diesels; Unveils New 2.0 TDI Mild Hybrid

[486] · Oct 19, 2018

listerone said:
I can drive my diesel more than 700 miles on the Interstate (motorway to Europeans) without stopping and when it's empty I can fill it up in about 4 minutes at any one of about 35,000 filling stations nationwide.
You can't do that in an electric.And you'll be lucky to be able to do it 20 years from now.

I could see a little tiny trailer with a generator on it being a rather unobtrusive option for occasional long distance trips.

Probably even do fine with only a 5-10kw so long as you aren't going over mountains continuously.

turbobrick240 · Oct 19, 2018

[486] said:
I could see a little tiny trailer with a generator on it being a rather unobtrusive option for occasional long distance trips.
Probably even do fine with only a 5-10kw so long as you aren't going over mountains continuously.

Yeah, the trailer could also have extra battery capacity designed in. Ideally, the car would have a port by the hitch such that the extra battery/generator power would be available without having to stop and charge the main battery.

listerone · Oct 20, 2018

[486] said:
I could see a little tiny trailer with a generator on it being a rather unobtrusive option for occasional long distance trips.

I can see a small windmill on the roof which,once the battery's dead,will allow you to continue...at 20MPH,with no headlights,no heat or A/C,no wipers and only one occupant.

nwdiver · Oct 20, 2018

listerone said:
I can drive my diesel more than 700 miles on the Interstate (motorway to Europeans) without stopping and when it's empty I can fill it up in about 4 minutes at any one of about 35,000 filling stations nationwide.
You can't do that in an electric.And you'll be lucky to be able to do it 20 years from now.

I remember those days... my record was 865 miles on a tank. I didn’t enjoy it then; I don’t miss it now. Much prefer the convenience of fueling up at home and while stopped for breakfast, lunch, dinner or overnight while traveling.

Took me ~3 days to get from WA to NM in my 800 mile per tank Jetta. Takes ~3 days in my Tesla... miles per tank was not the limiting factor.

Miles per ‘gallon’ matters A LOT more than miles per tank...

turbocharged798 · Oct 21, 2018

[486] said:
I could see a little tiny trailer with a generator on it being a rather unobtrusive option for occasional long distance trips.

Probably even do fine with only a 5-10kw so long as you aren't going over mountains continuously.

Your efficiency will be in the toilet. Between the drag of the trailer, the losses of the generator, the losses of the power transmission and the losses of the EV, you would have a really inefficient setup.

By far the most efficient highway cruising setup is to have the engine connected directly to the wheels

nwdiver · Oct 21, 2018

turbocharged798 said:
Your efficiency will be in the toilet. Between the drag of the trailer, the losses of the generator, the losses of the power transmission and the losses of the EV, you would have a really inefficient setup.

By far the most efficient highway cruising setup is to have the engine connected directly to the wheels

Towing a generator would be less efficient because you're towing a trailer but direct drive is generally NOT more efficient than diesel electric.

How Diesel-Electric saves fuel;

wxman · Oct 21, 2018

nwdiver said:
I remember those days... my record was 865 miles on a tank. I didn’t enjoy it then; I don’t miss it now. Much prefer the convenience of fueling up at home and while stopped for breakfast, lunch, dinner or overnight while traveling....

I am retired from full-time work, and at least half of my annual travel miles now occur during several 500-600 mile trips (each direction) to visit family and/or take vacations. I can make all of those trips on one tank of fuel in my diesel vehicle. I have no interest in stopping multiple times during those trips to "grab a bite to eat" while waiting for a BEV to be recharged. A 5-minute stop every few hundred miles is sufficient for me. Different strokes...

nwdiver said:
...Took me ~3 days to get from WA to NM in my 800 mile per tank Jetta. Takes ~3 days in my Tesla... miles per tank was not the limiting factor....

I expect to be able to make a 600-mile trip easily within one day.

nwdiver said:
...Miles per ‘gallon’ matters A LOT more than miles per tank...

I disagree for reasons outlined above.

[486] · Oct 21, 2018

turbocharged798 said:
Your efficiency will be in the toilet. Between the drag of the trailer, the losses of the generator, the losses of the power transmission and the losses of the EV, you would have a really inefficient setup.

I dunno,
on the drag: if you got some big honkin stupid trailer yeah, but something like you see behind motorcycles is plenty big to fit a 10k genset and really wouldn't hurt aero at all being tucked right in the dead spot. Could even see it improving aero if you've got a short enough tongue on it, acting like one of those hypermiler tail-cones.
.
poked into it a little bit back, and generators are as a rule around 90 percent efficient (shaft power to electric output), though the air cooled carbureted engine driving it is usually pretty junk
power transmission losses are minimal at 240v or better
.
I don't know about the inverters doing their thing and trying to charge the battery instead of just driving the car straight off the generated power (stick the generator to the car inverter's DC bus rather than to the car's charge controller)
.
I doubt it'd be worse of a parasitic loss than your average early 2000s 4 speed automatic transmission

El Dobro · Oct 21, 2018

My genset's under the hood.

turbobrick240 · Oct 21, 2018

[486] said:
power transmission losses are minimal at 240v or better
.

Not if you're using speaker wire and bubble gum to interconnect.

Seriously, all you'd need is a few feet of copper wire- no transmission losses to speak of.

nwdiver · Oct 21, 2018

wxman said:
I expect to be able to make a 600-mile trip easily within one day.

As do I... how else would you cover >1800 miles in 3 days?

I spent years in the gulf protecting our supply of fools fuel... a few hours a year 'added' (time I spend stopped anyway) to my trips to do my part to reduce our addiction is a very... very.... VERY small price to 'pay'....

wxman · Oct 22, 2018

Thank you for your service. My son served several deployments there as well; I have some perspective in that regard.

BEVs, even long-range BEVs, have the disadvantage of relatively short ranges and relatively long "refueling" times compared to ICEVs, diesel ICEVs especially. We can reduce our addiction to petroleum in other ways besides fully electrifying our transportation, namely biofuels.

nwdiver · Oct 22, 2018

wxman said:
Thank you for your service. My son served several deployments there as well; I have some perspective in that regard.

BEVs, even long-range BEVs, have the disadvantage of relatively short ranges and relatively long "refueling" times compared to ICEVs, diesel ICEVs especially. We can reduce our addiction to petroleum in other ways besides fully electrifying our transportation, namely biofuels.

I respectfully disagree... but only because I'm a slave to reality...

I often make the NM-WA run FASTER in the Tesla. In the Jetta I was compelled to maintain 'efficient' speeds when my conscience would nag me. That's how I got 865 miles on one tank. In the Tesla I have no such constraints. Speed limit +5 all the way...

flee · Oct 22, 2018

I'm pretty sure the early adopters of horseless carriages had mostly the same conversations.

wxman · Oct 22, 2018

There would be no way I could make my one-day trips in an EV as fast as I currently can, as I've already explained.

I don't know why biofuels are not, or can not eventually be, a reality. There have been numerous studies suggesting they potentially could.

turbobrick240 · Oct 22, 2018

I enjoy road trips in my tdi too, but if time was a prime consideration, I'd jump on a flight. The time factor is already becoming a moot point as charging rates are ever increasing.

turbobrick240 · Oct 22, 2018

Whatever VW believes in, European sales are getting murdered by the new WLTP rules. I read that VW sales are down 48% as compared to last year. Time for them to stop making EV concepts and start making the real thing.

Rodmiser · Oct 22, 2018

I read the other day VW was buying in with Ford.

nwdiver · Oct 22, 2018

wxman said:
There would be no way I could make my one-day trips in an EV as fast as I currently can, as I've already explained.

I don't know why biofuels are not, or can not eventually be, a reality. There have been numerous studies suggesting they potentially could.

You might have to spend another ~40 - 50 minutes resting..... the horror... maybe you should spend a few months in Iraq to gain some perspective....

Biofuels evolved into FUD funded in no small part by VW... probably in an attempt to delay the inevitable shift to EVs and prolong our fools fuel addiction. Several companies finally failed when they realize they couldn't make it work.

The numbers simply don't work with biofuel vs EVs.
FIRST; ICE is hilariously inefficient. Even an 'efficient' TDI requires ~3x as much energy compared to an EV.

SECOND; You get less energy per unit area and $$ vs PV or wind. An acre of PV will generate ~350MWh/yr while an acre of biofuel BEST CASE yields ~200MWh/yr... ~20MWh/yr is more likely. So you get ~150x more bang for your buck with PV or Wind powered EVs vs biofuels...

Biofuels are welfare for farmers... NOT a serious answer to our fools fuel addiction.

turbocharged798 · Oct 23, 2018

Must to be great to cherrypick data to fit your narrative, that's all I am going to say.

wxman · Oct 23, 2018

nwdiver said:
You might have to spend another ~40 - 50 minutes resting..... the horror... maybe you should spend a few months in Iraq to gain some perspective....
Biofuels evolved into FUD funded in no small part by VW... probably in an attempt to delay the inevitable shift to EVs and prolong our fools fuel addiction. Several companies finally failed when they realize they couldn't make it work.
The numbers simply don't work with biofuel vs EVs.
FIRST; ICE is hilariously inefficient. Even an 'efficient' TDI requires ~3x as much energy compared to an EV.
SECOND; You get less energy per unit area and $$ vs PV or wind. An acre of PV will generate ~350MWh/yr while an acre of biofuel BEST CASE yields ~200MWh/yr... ~20MWh/yr is more likely. So you get ~150x more bang for your buck with PV or Wind powered EVs vs biofuels...
Biofuels are welfare for farmers... NOT a serious answer to our fools fuel addiction.

There are renewable fuels facilities nearing completion like Fulcrum Bioenergy, which claims to be able to produce renewable fuels from municiple wastes for less than $1.00/gallon. According to EIA, it currently costs about $2.10/gallon to produce diesel fuels from petroleum (before taxes), so Fulcrum's fuel-from-municiple-wastes would be more than competitive with fossil fuels. At the same time, a significant decrease in landfill wastes can be avoided. Two birds, one stone. Why would even the most ardent EV supporter be opposed to that?

There are also other biofuel companies starting up like Red Rock Biofuels which uses forest residue as a feedstock, or Ryze Renewables which uses waste oils and fats.

You don't necessarily need food crops for renewable diesel feedstock.

theonearmedman · Oct 23, 2018

Billion003 said:
Hybrid...doesn't that dictate automatic transmission? I'm assuming soon I will be having to sell my 2011 Golf TDI, 2-door, 6 speed manual back to VW. (No sunroof, too!).
I'm suffering a crisis in choosing what car I want going forward. (a) I want it to be a 2-door. (b) I want it to be a 6 speed manual. VW seems to have given up on these two basic choice combinations.
(3) I want it to be a diesel because of the low end torque. My present car doesn't feel tin can-ish like oh so many small small cars with high revving 4-cylinder engines.
Except for the Beetle VW won't even be making 2-doors. And I heard rumors the Beetle will be discontinued. And manual transmissions are being dropped, AFAIK. (I'm holding back a major cursing fit.). Broadly, 2-doors are being dropped, too.

At a certain level I am angry at VW for this situation. At another, I am angry at what I feel is an over reaction to the VW diesel problems. I get it that NOX are to be avoided, but for what feels like a couple of decades now the idea of the bug-a-boo of CO2 was screamed from every mainstream media "news outlet." Now, I am going to be forced into a vehicle that gets worse mpg and emits higher levels of CO2. Not only because of the gasoline engine, but also because of increased size and the near requirement of an automatic transmission, which all too often is a CVT. (No effin' thanks.)

My wife's Lexus went into the dealer shop today for breaks. We didn't know it was to be in the shop overnight so they drove is home in an RX 330 (350?...brand new). Its a $43,000+ automobile...and from the way it rode and sounded...it...ain't...worth...it.
There's such an astoundingly standardized/average feel to so many new automobiles these days.

I'm in a real dilemma. What automobile can replace my VW Golf...the car that in my life I've enjoyed the most?

Rant off...temporarily.

Chevrolet cruze tdi.

Comes in a 2 door hatcback diesel with a 6 speed manual.

nwdiver · Oct 23, 2018

wxman said:
There are renewable fuels facilities nearing completion like Fulcrum Bioenergy, which claims to be able to produce renewable fuels from municiple wastes for less than $1.00/gallon. According to EIA, it currently costs about $2.10/gallon to produce diesel fuels from petroleum (before taxes), so Fulcrum's fuel-from-municiple-wastes would be more than competitive with fossil fuels. At the same time, a significant decrease in landfill wastes can be avoided. Two birds, one stone. Why would even the most ardent EV supporter be opposed to that?
There are also other biofuel companies starting up like Red Rock Biofuels which uses forest residue as a feedstock, or Ryze Renewables which uses waste oils and fats.
You don't necessarily need food crops for renewable diesel feedstock.

'Our long-term North American agreements with waste services companies ensure us a consistent supply of MSW feedstock, which eliminates the pricing volatility in our feedstock.'

That's the asterisk in this plan. Globally we use 80M barrels of oil. That's 3.2B. BILLION with a B gallons of hydrocarbons... EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. Diverting Municipal waste to fuel won't even scratch the surface of that addiction. It's a distraction... not a solution.

If 100% of MSW was diverted to energy it would cover ~12% of our electricity needs. Converting to liquid hydrocarbons is even less efficient. It's a distraction.

Tin Man · Oct 23, 2018

theonearmedman said:
Chevrolet cruze tdi.
Comes in a 2 door hatcback diesel with a 6 speed manual.

Last year for this: 2018 unfortunately. All are automatics for 2019.

Tin Man · Oct 23, 2018

nwdiver said:
'Our long-term North American agreements with waste services companies ensure us a consistent supply of MSW feedstock, which eliminates the pricing volatility in our feedstock.'

That's the asterisk in this plan. Globally we use 80M barrels of oil. That's 3.2B. BILLION with a B gallons of hydrocarbons... EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. Diverting Municipal waste to fuel won't even scratch the surface of that addiction. It's a distraction... not a solution.

If 100% of MSW was diverted to energy it would cover ~12% of our electricity needs. Converting to liquid hydrocarbons is even less efficient. It's a distraction.

I'm all for decreasing our use of crude oil, coal, and natural gas, especially limiting the amount of oil we buy from our "friends" in Russia and the Middle East.

But the same argument can be used with EV's: relying only on renewable sources of energy to produce electricity for EV's is not going to happen any time soon with our addiction to transportation, air conditioning, etc.

My point of view would be swayed by cost per mile as much as amount of time to refuel and range.

TM

truman · Oct 23, 2018

Tin Man said:
I'm all for decreasing our use of crude oil, coal, and natural gas, especially limiting the amount of oil we buy from our "friends" in Russia and the Middle East.

But the same argument can be used with EV's: relying only on renewable sources of energy to produce electricity for EV's is not going to happen any time soon with our addiction to transportation, air conditioning, etc.

My point of view would be swayed by cost per mile as much as amount of time to refuel and range.

TM

Also consider cost to maintain modern ICE engines, which continues to get worse. ICE is being regulated out of existence. Currently it plays well into the hands of the power industry.

nwdiver · Oct 23, 2018

Tin Man said:
But the same argument can be used with EV's: relying only on renewable sources of energy to produce electricity for EV's is not going to happen any time soon with our addiction to transportation, air conditioning, etc.

Not even close to true. In 2017 the US generated ~300TWh from wind and solar. Up ~50TWh from 2016. So in 1 year we added enough additional energy for 150B EV miles or >10M EVs driving 15k miles per year. ~200k EVs were added to the US in 2017. So we're adding wind and solar generation ~50x faster than new EVs can use it.

PLUS; Adding EVs enables more wind and solar.

Tin Man · Oct 23, 2018

nwdiver said:
Not even close to true. In 2017 the US generated ~300TWh from wind and solar. Up ~50TWh from 2016. So in 1 year we added enough additional energy for 150B EV miles or >10M EVs driving 15k miles per year. ~200k EVs were added to the US in 2017. So we're adding wind and solar generation ~50x faster than new EVs can use it.
PLUS; Adding EVs enables more wind and solar.

Nice cherry picking...

EV's are at best 1% of the currently in-use vehicles as well as a small percentage of new vehicles.

TM

Tin Man · Oct 23, 2018

truman said:
Also consider cost to maintain modern ICE engines, which continues to get worse. ICE is being regulated out of existence. Currently it plays well into the hands of the power industry.

Sure, as soon as the cost of replacing batteries comes down to earth, admittedly after quite a bit of mileage, but not too different from ICE's going 300,000 miles. Current average age of vehicles on the road is around 130,000 miles.

TM

nwdiver · Oct 23, 2018

Tin Man said:
Nice cherry picking...
EV's are at best 1% of the currently in-use vehicles as well as a small percentage of new vehicles.
TM

Explain how that's cherry picking. Your concern was over clean electricity generation for EVs. Point is we're ADDING clean energy FASTER than we're adding EVs...

Wind and Solar growth is VASTLY outpacing EV growth and is likely to continue to do that indefinitely since more EVs make it easier to add more wind and solar. It's a virtuous cycle.

VW Still Believes In Diesels; Unveils New 2.0 TDI Mild Hybrid

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