A thought about VW Keys and the immobilizer

dieselgus · Jan 10, 2006

You could...... the main thing is getting the pellet in the right place for reliable starting....

Gus

BudsBug · Jan 11, 2006

Just has to ask I saw someone had gotten a fleabay keyblank all steel

I think that the dealer said was no good but if the chip is the immob part the car should not care should it?

This is the mecanical part not the chip

Mike_n_NC · Jan 11, 2006

ele28 said:
Its simple, look at the suffix on remote part #, all remotes with AM at the end (1J0 959 753 AM) are Immo3, remotes with F or T (its Immo3 style remote for Immo 2 cars) are Immo 2. Its another solution to fix Immo3 transpondent, done in the past

This is post 13 in this thread. I bought the ebay key and fob, change the cut key w/a blank. Since it was a Immo3 chip and locked the dealer couldn't reprogram it. The chip is in the key half, not the remote half.

Mike_n_NC · Jan 11, 2006

as far as Valet keys go, the difference is the key....not the chip. the Valet key is actually ground differntly then the master key. look at the depth of the side cut on the edge. The master key is cut deeper than the Valet key. So when the Valet tries to open a restricted lock the key will not physically go in. The valet key has "NAA" marking as opposed to "HAA" on the master key.

BudsBug · Jan 12, 2006

Mike_n_NC said:
as far as Valet keys go, the difference is the key....not the chip. the Valet key is actually ground differntly then the master key. look at the depth of the side cut on the edge. The master key is cut deeper than the Valet key. So when the Valet tries to open a restricted lock the key will not physically go in. The valet key has "NAA" marking as opposed to "HAA" on the master key.

In my NB the valet key does no good you can open ever thing after opening the drivers door

the hatch release is right there and the glove box this is the only area that the valet key won't work on and you would have a hard time putting more than a pair of gloves in

along with the book. The only thing is no remote and needing to open drivers door to open hatch. can't even open the passenger door with it without opening the DD, silly to have a distinction on the beetle

It is ground the same but the center is wider so it won't go into the trunk

Mike_n_NC · Jan 17, 2006

BudsBug said:
In my NB the valet key does no good you can open ever thing after opening the drivers door the hatch release is right there and the glove box this is the only area that the valet key won't work on and you would have a hard time putting more than a pair of gloves in along with the book. The only thing is no remote and needing to open drivers door to open hatch. can't even open the passenger door with it without opening the DD, silly to have a distinction on the beetle It is ground the same but the center is wider so it won't go into the trunk

And yet the difference is stil the key!

mine is differnt than yours.

I drive an 03 jetta sedan. The rear seats lock so you can't fold them down to acces the trunk from the passenger compartment. The trunk release in the drivers door locks, and the glove box can be locked by the master/drivers key. The valet key will only unlock the drivers door & ignition. It doesn't unlock the trunk, trunk release, rear seats or glove box.

NFSTDI · Jan 18, 2006

Frank M said:
nice post Gus
What system does the 05 Jaguar use?

LOL, I was going to ask him about the Lexus....

Someone mentioned that this is a law suit waiting to happen, don't hold your breath. Many of us locksmiths thought the same thing when transponders were introduced back in the mid ninties. As I understand it all started with the insurance companies. Over in Europe it's far too easy to steal any car and move it to another country. The insurance companies had enough and insisted that the manufacturers do something about it. Hence immobilizer chips, transponders, etc. Actually it really goes back to the early eighties and and introduction of "laser cut" keys but anyways.

I've always thought that RFID was a much better idea than "laser cut" although some companies, such as VW use both. Before you get all hot and bothered about the price consider the following.

Most people in CA live in a home that costs over a half million dollars yet they lock it up with a lock and key that cost about twenty bucks! I don't know about you but that's just silly if you ask me. Cars being mobile and getting rather expensive they are a lot easier to steal than a house.

Until recently when all this came about FORD, GM & Chrysler, VW, etc. had all been using basically the same lock technology and design since the sixties! GM had the most secure but even thiers left quite a bit to be desired.

In a six pin or six wafer system you generally have less than a hundred thousand usable different combinations, often less than ten thousand! Increase that to ten wafers as many of the non laser cut Japanese and European cars did and you move up into the hundreds of thousand or even millions depending on how many sizes of pin or wafer. The size of the pin or wafer is another factor but we'll leave that alone for now. Suffice it to say that chances are if you drive a GM product without RFID (transponder immobilizer) technology and you live in a major metropolitan area someone or several someones in your city have a key to your car! If you drive a Japanese product that has a bit of wear on the locks many keys that are somewhat close to yours will work!

Two things made GMs system superior to virtually all others. One is they incorporate a side bar design that renders lock picks essentially useless. Although there are techniques for picking them it generally involves some damage and quite a bit of skill. They also incorporate an eight blank system. Four different door key blanks and four different ignition key blanks. The blank are paired A & B, C & D, E & H, J & K. They rotated through the different blank pairs from year to year so that if you have a key for a '88 it won't fit an '89 even if it's the same combination. They also randomized the combinations such that if your door key fit my car your ignition key would not.

Enter RFID, now everyone can have a unique key such that no two keys are ever the same!

If you still think this system sucks imagine for a moment you own a Toyota or a Lexus. When Toyota introduced their system it was ECU dependant. If you lose both keys you have to buy a new ECU! Can you imagine how hot the dealers got when the lease returns started coming back. Yes, thats right, the dealers got screwed by Toyota. They had to pay about eight hundred dollars dealer cost for a new ECU if they did not have keys and wanted to make them!

It has taken years for the car industry to sort through the best way to do all of this and now finally there are tools that can program more than one car. Until very recently a different tool had to be purchased for each manufacturer!

FORD=NGS, about two grand!
Chrysler=DART, I got mine for under a thousand and later sold if for more.
VW=VAG-COM, you guys know about this one.
Mitsubishi=MUT II, about four thousand!
and so on and so forth....

Suffice it to say that this has been a servere learning curve for anyone who needs a key to an immobilizer equiped car.

So why is RFID better than "laser cut" when I can make all "laser cut" keys on one machine that only costs me about the same as one of the many tools needed for RFID?

It gives each person a unique key that no one else has.

It helps keep insurance costs down. That means what you spend on keys you save on insurance!

It works, casual car theft has been on the decline throughout the world. Nothing stops a pro but anything that slows him down is a good thing.

And lastly becuase the cost of "laser cut" locks and keys is signicantly more than wafer or pin tumbler technology. Of course with VW using both this is a mute point.

So next time you are complaining about the cost of your key consider the value. Incidently I used to replace the remote for my Alpine alarm about once a year at a cost of forty bucks a pop.

LNXGUY · Jan 18, 2006

I am sooo happy I have a non Imb, 99.5

BudsBug · Jan 18, 2006

NFSTDI said:
LOL, I was going to ask him about the Lexus....

Someone mentioned that this is a law suit waiting to happen, don't hold your breath. Many of us locksmiths thought the same thing when transponders were introduced back in the mid ninties. As I understand it all started with the insurance companies. Over in Europe it's far too easy to steal any car and move it to another country. The insurance companies had enough and insisted that the manufacturers do something about it. Hence immobilizer chips, transponders, etc. Actually it really goes back to the early eighties and and introduction of "laser cut" keys but anyways.

I've always thought that RFID was a much better idea than "laser cut" although some companies, such as VW use both. Before you get all hot and bothered about the price consider the following.

Most people in CA live in a home that costs over a half million dollars yet they lock it up with a lock and key that cost about twenty bucks! I don't know about you but that's just silly if you ask me. Cars being mobile and getting rather expensive they are a lot easier to steal than a house.

Until recently when all this came about FORD, GM & Chrysler, VW, etc. had all been using basically the same lock technology and design since the sixties! GM had the most secure but even thiers left quite a bit to be desired.

In a six pin or six wafer system you generally have less than a hundred thousand usable different combinations, often less than ten thousand! Increase that to ten wafers as many of the non laser cut Japanese and European cars did and you move up into the hundreds of thousand or even millions depending on how many sizes of pin or wafer. The size of the pin or wafer is another factor but we'll leave that alone for now. Suffice it to say that chances are if you drive a GM product without RFID (transponder immobilizer) technology and you live in a major metropolitan area someone or several someones in your city have a key to your car! If you drive a Japanese product that has a bit of wear on the locks many keys that are somewhat close to yours will work!

Two things made GMs system superior to virtually all others. One is they incorporate a side bar design that renders lock picks essentially useless. Although there are techniques for picking them it generally involves some damage and quite a bit of skill. They also incorporate an eight blank system. Four different door key blanks and four different ignition key blanks. The blank are paired A & B, C & D, E & H, J & K. They rotated through the different blank pairs from year to year so that if you have a key for a '88 it won't fit an '89 even if it's the same combination. They also randomized the combinations such that if your door key fit my car your ignition key would not.

Enter RFID, now everyone can have a unique key such that no two keys are ever the same!

If you still think this system sucks imagine for a moment you own a Toyota or a Lexus. When Toyota introduced their system it was ECU dependant. If you lose both keys you have to buy a new ECU! Can you imagine how hot the dealers got when the lease returns started coming back. Yes, thats right, the dealers got screwed by Toyota. They had to pay about eight hundred dollars dealer cost for a new ECU if they did not have keys and wanted to make them!

It has taken years for the car industry to sort through the best way to do all of this and now finally there are tools that can program more than one car. Until very recently a different tool had to be purchased for each manufacturer!

FORD=NGS, about two grand!
Chrysler=DART, I got mine for under a thousand and later sold if for more.
VW=VAG-COM, you guys know about this one.
Mitsubishi=MUT II, about four thousand!
and so on and so forth....

Suffice it to say that this has been a servere learning curve for anyone who needs a key to an immobilizer equiped car.

So why is RFID better than "laser cut" when I can make all "laser cut" keys on one machine that only costs me about the same as one of the many tools needed for RFID?

It gives each person a unique key that no one else has.

It helps keep insurance costs down. That means what you spend on keys you save on insurance!

It works, casual car theft has been on the decline throughout the world. Nothing stops a pro but anything that slows him down is a good thing.

And lastly becuase the cost of "laser cut" locks and keys is signicantly more than wafer or pin tumbler technology. Of course with VW using both this is a mute point.

So next time you are complaining about the cost of your key consider the value. Incidently I used to replace the remote for my Alpine alarm about once a year at a cost of forty bucks a pop.

I would still rather take my chances than be at the dealers mercy for multi hundred dollar keys.

I think the system may need a "good key to disable the system but it should be doable.

If I loose a key I should be able to get an AFFORDABLE replacement

As it stands now in 2015 a new set of keys will be worth more than a number of the car's Gasses more so than TDI's but really

Rob_from_Elkmont · Jan 20, 2006

ele28 said:
FYI the Immo 3 transpondent is locked after 1st adaptation and cannot be used again in other car, its safe for Immo2 users to get used keys off eBay because they are not locked and can be adapted again. You can get Immo3 transpondent in EU for about 23€ plus shipping. The Immobilizer in TDI can be easy disabled without problems, most tuners can do it but its expensive (few hundreds), the Immo light will be ON all the time, but this can be solved as well using Immo emulator which will illuminate light for few seconds and it will look as the Immobilizer is working .

Guys,

The transponder in a FOB for an Immobilizer #3 equipped vehicle is not locked after the 1st adaptation. The transponder is a passive RFID device. You stimulate it with a low base frequency (typically 125 kHz), and it responds with data at a higher frequency (in our case, 315 MHz). A FOB with a bad transponder cannot be matched, but one with a properly operating transponder can be matched many times to an Immobilizer #3 module.

Best Regards,
Rob

bhtooefr · Jan 20, 2006

I'm like LNXGUY, except my keys are even cheaper

I can get keys for USD$1 at the grocery store

kubo · Jan 20, 2006

phew, all this makes my head spin

lots of good info, nice bed time reading.
if you really wanted to get rid of immo, wouldn't it be easiest to swap the cluster for 99.5? could you adapt say '03 ecu to non immo cluster? or would you have to swap both, cluster and ecu? would that be sufficient? since the keys would try to talk to no immo system, but there would be noting to lock the car, i guess you could keep them and all should work.... or do i have this all wrong?

ele28 · Jan 20, 2006

Rob_from_Elkmont said:
Guys,

The transponder in a FOB for an Immobilizer #3 equipped vehicle is not locked after the 1st adaptation. The transponder is a passive RFID device. You stimulate it with a low base frequency (typically 125 kHz), and it responds with data at a higher frequency (in our case, 315 MHz). A FOB with a bad transponder cannot be matched, but one with a properly operating transponder can be matched many times to an Immobilizer #3 module.

Best Regards,
Rob

Its not true, the reason for using channel 50 when ECU or cluster is replaced (depends what you replacing) is that controller is pulling VIN,Immobilizer and PIN from OEM unit to the new unit, allowing to reuse current keys that are tight to the Immo, then new controller has the same PIN as your OEM, otherwise you will need to get new transpondent. Many people bought used keys from eBay and keys wouldn’t be adapted and a lot of those keys are in like new condition, most of them are spare keys never used but they were adapted to the car from factory and its only the case with AM remotes. Besides the TDI immobilzer is very easy to disable.

Rob_from_Elkmont · Jan 21, 2006

ele28 said:
Its not true, the reason for using channel 50 when ECU or cluster is replaced (depends what you replacing) is that controller is pulling VIN,Immobilizer and PIN from OEM unit to the new unit, allowing to reuse current keys that are tight to the Immo, then new controller has the same PIN as your OEM, otherwise you will need to get new transpondent.

That does provide a way to keep from having to match the old transponders to the new ECU or cluster. But, the transponder inside the FOB is not disabled after first adaptation. Either the buyer's that you referenced purchased FOBs with bad transponders, or they utilized inept Service Technicians.

Rob

BudsBug · Jan 21, 2006

bhtooefr said:
I'm like LNXGUY, except my keys are even cheaper

I can get keys for USD$1 at the grocery store

How I miss that luxury

BudsBug · Jan 29, 2006

bhtooefr said:
I'm like LNXGUY, except my keys are even cheaper

I can get keys for USD$1 at the grocery store

Now if I could get them for less than $20 I would be thrilled.

dtebh · Jan 31, 2006

Immo 3 key programming......

Was there ever a final answer re: the Immo 3 key programming?

Can a key that was previously used on another Immo 3, be programmed to work on different Immo 3? I am still unclear, since there are posts both ways, as well as posts describing how to swap the IMMO 3 chips from unused valet keys.

I have seen posts both ways. I am trying to add another switchblade remote to my Jetta 2002 TDI by purchasing a used one and re-keying it.

Do the Immo 3 chips in the top of the key FOB go bad and have to be replaced.

Thanks in advance,
Ed.

compu_85 · Feb 2, 2006

I have a friend who has several GM trucks in his family... he was telling me that for the trucks, intil rescently, there were only 30 or so different keys! His friend works at a garage, so this comes to their advantage when they lock the keys in a customer's car... just go through the 30 or so they have on a ring!

-J

BudsBug · Feb 3, 2006

I was on a key link last night and a tool called a VA (I think) seems to read the codes from the computer for the IMO 3 but everything said 2001+ not <2001 IMO 2 like I have it also showed the VIN its in PA I believe near Vag-Com country cold it be an offshoot if it is could we adapt it to our VAG COM for a small fee IE. $25 for full registered units???

NFSTDI · Feb 3, 2006

compu_85 said:
I have a friend who has several GM trucks in his family... he was telling me that for the trucks, intil rescently, there were only 30 or so different keys! His friend works at a garage, so this comes to their advantage when they lock the keys in a customer's car... just go through the 30 or so they have on a ring!

-J

When you say trucks I assume you mean big ones, not pickup trucks nor vans. All big rigs that I have ever made keys for use a very simple lock system that could fit this description given enough wear. There are still five tumblers with four or five depths making a total of about one to three thousand possible combinations. Also there are a few different blanks that are common although most GM, GMC and International trucks all use essentially the same key blank.

NFSTDI · Feb 3, 2006

LNXGUY said:
I am sooo happy I have a non Imb, 99.5

Me too

! I made a spare last night in my van on an X88 keyblank. Works great in all locks. It's not exactly the same blank as my original key but it's a blank that is common for Audi and Porsche and I have seen it used on VWs. I'll post more info when I get time to research it.

Incidently the non immobilizer keys used prior to 2000 can copied on blanks that do not have the plastic nor rubber head for less money and they take up less space in your pocket. Just stop in your local locksmith and ask them to make one for you. Should cost about three dollars and change.

mr.mindless · Feb 3, 2006

at least the RFID only gets in the way of the ignition, so I can get a spare "flat" key for cheap to keep in my wallet.

when my car came into the dealer it had one switchblade, and they made a second switchblade but I don't have any sort of wallet/valet key so if I loose my key now I'm screwed. I love always having a spare in my wallet, and then I can keep the second remote key somewhere safe in the car, like in spare tire or CD changer areas....

BudsBug · Feb 12, 2006

NFSTDI said:
Me too ! I made a spare last night in my van on an X88 keyblank. Works great in all locks. It's not exactly the same blank as my original key but it's a blank that is common for Audi and Porsche and I have seen it used on VWs. I'll post more info when I get time to research it.

Incidently the non immobilizer keys used prior to 2000 can copied on blanks that do not have the plastic nor rubber head for less money and they take up less space in your pocket. Just stop in your local locksmith and ask them to make one for you. Should cost about three dollars and change.

Do most Lock smiths have anything like the keys on 2000 + VW's I would be willing to keep the good key chip in the dash if I could get away without it.

chard · Jul 13, 2006

Transponders used in these keys.

dtebh said:
Was there ever a final answer re: the Immo 3 key programming?

Can a key that was previously used on another Immo 3, be programmed to work on different Immo 3? I am still unclear, since there are posts both ways, as well as posts describing how to swap the IMMO 3 chips from unused valet keys.

I have seen posts both ways. I am trying to add another switchblade remote to my Jetta 2002 TDI by purchasing a used one and re-keying it.

Do the Immo 3 chips in the top of the key FOB go bad and have to be replaced.

Thanks in advance,
Ed.

Hickley Valtone

www.hickleyvaltone.com/diagnostics/keys_list.php?range=transponder

sell 3 types of transponders for VW keys. The latest one listed AKTP4, made by Philips (Crypto 2Nd Series T15 ID44) appears to be a read/write capable transponder. It can probably be locked. This is listed for models 2000 on, probably immo3. I have looked on the philips website for data on this device but can't find the exact one but there are others listed that do lock out and require a passcode for access.

www.semiconductors.philips.com/acrobat_download/datasheets/HT2DC20S20_2.pdf

It is therefore possible that VW are using a similar device. These transponders can be bought from the above site.

bam_bam_dip · Jul 13, 2006

bhtooefr said:
I'm like LNXGUY, except my keys are even cheaper

I can get keys for USD$1 at the grocery store

OH, Shut up!!!!!

I guess I'm lucky to have a 99.5 as well......

JoeBleed · Jul 17, 2006

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=1349450&postcount=23

Noah Jenkins · Feb 9, 2008

I just bought a 2000 Passat. I live in Juneau, Alaska. There is no dealer here. The car came with only one key. The dealer in Seattle says that if the key has a chip (Immobilizer) then there will be a Key Light on the dash when the key is first turned on. I do not see one. The local locksmith shop says he can program a key, but his key reader does not detect an immobilizer. How can I find out if the key has one? The locksmith says he can cut me a key for $30 with no chip. I could also order a key from the dealer and have it shipped up here and have the locksmith cut it and try to program it. Basically, I am lost. Can anyone help?
Thanks

astonishedboy · Feb 9, 2008

I don't know if the 2000 passat has Immobilizer. Someone here on the club should know for certain.

If it does, it is probably IMMO2, which means you just need your SKC, and a VagCom, then you can program yourself as many keys as you'd like (within reason) You can usually buy them on Ebay, but you must match part numbers.

The dealer will not help you get your SKC. Several member of the club are able to help with this. I suggest you contact one of them... I think nihilator is one such member. But you may have to have the car down, while shipping off your cluster...

Might as well get a rocketchip while you are at it!!!

mr.mindless · Feb 11, 2008

You can also have your ECU flashed and get rid of Immobilizer entirely.

Levitate · Feb 12, 2008

New to me 2002

I just bought from non VW dealer an new to me 2002 jetta GLS TDI. It only came with the valet key. Is it really going to cost me $350 from the dealer to get a master key to be able to work all the locks, and Keyless? I have ben quoted 2 different prices from 2 different VW dealers.. what can I do, are the dealers the only option, what is a good price, any suggestions. Help Please I love this car and this sucks!! Thanks

Mike_n_NC said:
penclnck, the lock and tumblers of the ignition switch and key are still required the turn the ign switch. Just like in granpas old 68 pick up. The chip is the electronic part of the immobilizer. I can vouch for it working, read on........

I just bought my 03 in Nov 05. I got 1 key with the the car. No Owners manual, no Valet key or 2nd key fob and remote. If you separate the remote from the key like your changing the battery in the remote, the chip and key are in the same half. For fear of losing my only key or locking it inside the car, it was necessary to get at least 1 backup.

I bought a used key fob & cut key, off of ebay for $28 + shipping, a key blank off ebay for $9 + shipping, and blank Valet key with chip off ebay for $24 + shipping. Shipping in each case was less than $5. (about $72 so far) the key fob from the dealer is about $185, Valet key $65 and you still have to pay the cutting & coding fee. Dealers can't get a key blank to put in the fob should you break or bend the key portion. I removed the cut key and installed the key blank(you'll need a very small punch). My key I got with the car was a Huf, this blank was a Valeo. Both are oem makers. For $43 dollars the dealer cut and attempted to code both keys. the used switchblade key for some reason would not accept recoding. The remote portion worked great though. I just bought the half I needed from the dealer right then since I would have been charged another $43 dollars again for cut & coding had I left and came back later. Total leaving with a cut & coded Valet key, switchblade key/fob and a cut key that works all the locks but won't start the car was $106 and some change. add the earlier $72= $178. less than the dealer key fob price.

A locksmith could do this with the right equipment however there are none in my area so equipped.

I'll take aprt my extra key half to diasect the chip and take pics!

A thought about VW Keys and the immobilizer

Should we be able to remove (Kill) the immobilizer on our cars

No we need it

Yes the cars belong to us

Who Cares

My VW dosn't have one but I wish it did

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Veteran Member

Well-known member

Vendor , w/Business number

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor

Well-known member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

New member

Gadget Guy

Veteran Member

Vendor , w/Business number

Vendor , w/Business number

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Well-known member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

New member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

New member