Kerma's nozzle "warning"..

Nozzles will be right enough but for warranty kerma has them mounted and tested himself, basically if you mount them and something goes wrong later it's your fault.

Personally I like having them set up for the opening pressures but I think the minimum is to have them at least pop tested to make sure they're all firing correctly and not dribbling or anything like that.

If you mount them and burn them up, it's on you. Warranties don't cover you if YOU do not install the component properly.

The nozzle manufacturer cannot be held accountable for how you decide to use the product, or your failure to install them as required.

If you have them mounted by Kerma (us) you get a 5 year unlimited mileage warranty.

If you decide to play diesel system overhaul expert, as is no warranty....

500 miles plus a tune, mount and pray = ruined nozzles

Choose carefully.

What if he mounts them correctly but they fail? Is kerma and dbw the only people that can correctly mount nozzles?

Cha2ga said:

What if he mounts them correctly but they fail? Is kerma and dbw the only people that can correctly mount nozzles?

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No. But if you buy nozzles from any vendor and then have what you think may be warranty issue, that vendor may think the installation of the nozzle was the root of the problem. In that case, the vendor is going to tell you the bad/poor installation was the cause of the problem. Not a manufacturing defect, so talk to who ever did the installation provider.

It is very much like buying a new to you car that is sold "as is, where is". Kerma/DBW is saying very much the same "as is, where is" thing.

Used car dealer tactics. Now I get it!

What about "replacement" injectors from hot-swaps?

I figured that this question might also tie in here so I thought I'd tag it on: no bites from a separate thread I started

Some vendors have a hot-swap program in which they send you a set of injectors with the nozzles that you're buying from them all mounted up and, "calibrated" and "balanced." While I'm sure that there's needed care in installing the nozzles and that if you purchase the service of all of this that there is some sort of support for problems with the nozzles, BUT, what about the injectors themselves? The injectors have no known history, you have no idea where they really came from. Do vendors apply some sort of guarantee to the injectors too? I'm contemplating doing a hot-swap but wonder whether I'm going to be trading my good injectors (only 125k miles on one set, 155k miles on the other; both in extremely well-running vehicles [no issues, great mileage and such]) for lesser injectors.

Cha2ga said:

Used car dealer tactics. Now I get it!

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Not even close to what I was trying to say.

UhOh said:

I figured that this question might also tie in here so I thought I'd tag it on: no bites from a separate thread I started

Some vendors have a hot-swap program in which they send you a set of injectors with the nozzles that you're buying from them all mounted up and, "calibrated" and "balanced." While I'm sure that there's needed care in installing the nozzles and that if you purchase the service of all of this that there is some sort of support for problems with the nozzles, BUT, what about the injectors themselves? The injectors have no known history, you have no idea where they really came from. Do vendors apply some sort of guarantee to the injectors too? I'm contemplating doing a hot-swap but wonder whether I'm going to be trading my good injectors (only 125k miles on one set, 155k miles on the other; both in extremely well-running vehicles [no issues, great mileage and such]) for lesser injectors.

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Good question to directly ask the vendor.

Nozzle mounting is more than just slapping on nozzles, the injector bodies themselves are overhauled and brought back to better than new condition. All parts are inspected, cleaned, replaced as needed before the nozzles are ever mounted.

Other places that claim to be able to work on the injectors have zero capacity to correctly overhaul the bodies. The only injector part that cannot be repaired is the cast in #3 wire electrical assembly.

The warranty covers the entire injector, not just the nozzle.

Strange how many sets of nozzles managed to be installed quite successfully and ran for many years and miles without need for such precise overhaul and testing.

I personally bought two sets of pp520s from karma prior to his affiliation with dbw. No such warning on the boxes, and both sets are still in service several 100,000kms later.

Would dbw have (if he had the equipment at the time) calibrated them more precisely? Absolutely.

Are they still running down the road today without that calibration? Absolutely.

Test spray pattern and verify before and after group 13 balance, and the dire warnings will not come to fruition.

But still no warranty, and with good reason. Would you expect a warranty on a timing belt that was installed by mark-n-pray?

It's pretty simple, if you want his warranty, you play by his rules. If you don't want it, then feel free to do with them as you like.

Personally, the 5 year unlimited miles was appealing to me and short change, so I bought two sets and have not regretted it.

Interesting

Drivbiwire said:

Nozzle mounting is more than just slapping on nozzles, the injector bodies themselves are overhauled and brought back to better than new condition. All parts are inspected, cleaned, replaced as needed before the nozzles are ever mounted.

Other places that claim to be able to work on the injectors have zero capacity to correctly overhaul the bodies. The only injector part that cannot be repaired is the cast in #3 wire electrical assembly.

The warranty covers the entire injector, not just the nozzle.

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[emphasis added]

I had guessed that this would have to be the case; but,in all the discussions that I'd read through I had never seen this mentioned! Interesting That, because I believe that this should be a pretty big selling point: I know that it solidifies my view of going this route.

"Other places that claim to be able to work on the injectors have zero capacity to correctly overhaul the bodies"

you're the only facility in the world that can do this?

DPM said:

"Other places that claim to be able to work on the injectors have zero capacity to correctly overhaul the bodies"

you're the only facility in the world that can do this?

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As far as the number of outsourced repairs we do for Bosch, and other repair shops...yeah I'm confident that we are.

We have everything from diamond to aluminum oxide facing materials for these specific applications to restore these high pressure mechanical seals (which they are). We also hace the automated tooling for the processes.

Bosch is specific to every shop to not even try some of these repairs, and to replace the unit with a brand new one.

There is other tooling we invested in that is outside the scope of nearly every injection shop to allow us to perform overhauls on par with the original manufacturing process. The tooling rather than producing a product from virgin material, is able to restore those materials that have seen a decades worth of service which is far more difficult to return to original tolerances.

PD's also come to mind since we can completely overhaul those solenoid sections and return/reset back to original or even completely different settings specific to the car they are going in.... 6 different variations exist.

We now have injector coding capability for common rail, and in the coming weeks be able to fully overhaul VW, Mercedes, and pretty much any common Rail injector out there.

No, they are not the only ones who set nozzles. But we have no disagreement that without setting nozzles, you will be depending on luck.

I disagree that setting pilot pop only, means much. We have seen plenty of nozzles that worked well ONLY at the pilot pop. Setting volume at main pressure and, in our opinion, getting the nozzle to keep from leaking at that pressure is the important read. The next step is getting four nozzles that run equally.

Otherwise, what you end up getting are untested nozzles. In spite of 'perfection' claimed by some nozzle manufacturing companies, and despite close tolerance nozzles vary in flow rate and sealing, nozzles vary. In other words, they don't always 'pop and stop'.

Leakage by the needle tip is the largest variation between nozzles, in our opinion. Although it is something we can often fix, it is time-consuming and not for the novice to attempt. As a reality check, we have seen lots of nozzles and there is no manufacturer of nozzles that are immune from issues. We reject nozzles all the time and again,IOP, THIS MUST BE DONE, or inevitably, you will install poorly balanced sets.

We pioneered effective methods to use the VCDS software to check if nozzles are operating in the engine compatibly when set for correct pressures. It is a valid test only if the nozzles are set for pilot and main pressure values.

Bottom line... You might get untested nozzles to work, but you will be taking chances. At best, you get lucky. At worst, you melt pistons.

As for nozzle swap programs, we used to call it,"Instant Gratification", and to be copied is a form of flattery. However, we discontinued that program for the greater part. You see, it's not only the customer, but the vendor that may receive inferior parts on the exchange. The least of this was broken injector wires to the lift sensor and the worst was non-operating lift sensors. We took a hit on several #3 injectors and retired from the offering.

The original thinking was that a lift sensor was good if it read between 95-105 ohms. That is not the complete picture. The lift sensor must also be able to move properly. The only valid test we decided is to run the injector set in a vehicle with a known good engine, for effect. All the testing and equipment create emulations. Installed and run in an engine, it is no longer an emulation; it's reality.

Franko6 said:

The original thinking was that a lift sensor was good if it read between 95-105 ohms. That is not the complete picture. The lift sensor must also be able to move properly. The only valid test we decided is to run the injector set in a vehicle with a known good engine, for effect. All the testing and equipment create emulations. Installed and run in an engine, it is no longer an emulation; it's reality.

Click to expand...

All of our #3 injectors are tested to 4000 rpm to insure they perform electronically, and hydraulically, resistance just checks the coil., this emulates the injector function 100% as if it were installed in the engine. That data baseline is then used to set the dummy injector sequencing...

In other words, setting the dummy injectors to open at the same hydraulic pulse as the #3 is part of the process. Failing to do this is failing to "balance" the injectors and this will cause mechanics to chase a bad #3 when the issue is simply an out of balance of the injector sequencing. This isn't something you can do on a bottle jack tester, that is "balance" injectors.

We routinely test the Bosio nozzles for raw flow, they hit a production flow target of .25% variation. Bosch is typically 2%, other off brands we have been found to be up to 15% nozzle to nozzle. Measuring raw nozzle flow requires a production Flow bench which uses an ISO 4113 calibration fluid at 40C with pressure control of +/- .01 bar... we invested in this because of other developmental work we do. But with all due respect, Using gunpowder trays shall we say doesn't come close to cutting it...

Having tight tolerances makes balancing and sequencing easier, however a flow variation of more than 2% can't be balanced due to the limits of the engines injection window.

Customers always send in reports like this after installing our injectors: " It has never run this smooth, it really was quite rough before and I always blamed the stiffer than vw engine mounts I run..."

Close doesn't cut it, and it is noticeable to any owner.

Frank, thanks a bunch for chipping in here. Yes, I forgot that there's also the potential hit on the vendors' side: I was only thinking of my own transaction and that I have two very-well functioning sets of injectors.

For myself, I'm looking to OPTIMIZE the performance of my cars. Having a professional installation and set up of nozzles is just that, an optimization.

Drivbiwire said:

All of our #3 injectors are tested to 4000 rpm to insure they perform electronically, and hydraulically, resistance just checks the coil., this emulates the injector function 100% as if it were installed in the engine. That data baseline is then used to set the dummy injector sequencing...

Click to expand...

Only on new ones that you sell? I'm sure that's what you mean

Seatman said:

Only on new ones that you sell? I'm sure that's what you mean

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I would think it is part of the rebuilding/testing service S.O.P.

Exactly. And if it doesn't pass I'm sure the owner would be told about it, just like any failed injector. If the nozzles test okm but the injector doesn't, then it'd show up on the calibration and balance.

john.jackson9213 said:

I would think it is part of the rebuilding/testing service S.O.P.

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Abacus said:

Exactly. And if it doesn't pass I'm sure the owner would be told about it, just like any failed injector. If the nozzles test okm but the injector doesn't, then it'd show up on the calibration and balance.

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How can it be? The lift sensor doesn't need to work in order to set up a set of injectors, just needs to work once it's installed on the car. I wouldn't warranty some crappy old #3 lift sensor someone sent in if it was me. If it's a brand new unit then yeh of course but not an old one unless you're supplying it out of your own stock of second hand parts.

If we send you a #3 injector, it's covered by our warranty.

"For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you" (Romans 12:3).

Veiled innuendo seem to be the order of the day. I have refrained from attacks on my competition's methods or products, except for those who were selling knock-off nozzles or other CRAP. In those cases, it was a public service announcement and thankfully, allowed. I do not attack this adversary, veiled or otherwise. He should reciprocate.

I am not an elitist or egocentric. I do understand what drives this 'business'. I will continue to provide my service, realizing there are deeper issues that are far beyond my ability to alter. I will not further embroil the situation.

We both have our detractors and our adherents. I accept and understand that I make mistakes and work hard to correct them. Of course, before you can fix any problem, you have to admit you have one.

This business about #3 injectors is really quick and simple. It doesn't take any 'secret weapon' equipment. INSTALL THEM and RUN THEM! We do it all the time. There is no replacement for actual operation of injectors. Running rebuilt injectors in a high-quality, proven engine not only can you show VCDS readings, which we can provide, but ET's, startup and smoke issues are revealed. These tests are impossible to do on the test stand. Test values from the operating engine are not always the same as on test stand equipment, so we can finalize and tweak according to actual running results. The most logical step for proof-of-function is install and test run.

We created methods years ago to eliminate the problem #3 nozzles and it is no longer an issue. We prefer to exclude injector swaps. If you send injectors, you get your injectors back. If you send us a broken wired #3, you get back the same, fixed. If you send a bad #3, we replace it and you get your old one back, engraved as BAD.

Once we have proven the injectors, we still get some problems. For example, I can't count how many times we have gotten returned injectors that needed dirt cleaned out of them from sloppy installs. Blow out the lines, the injector pump connections and the top of the injector. That alone would solve a lot of problems. Also, it is easy to blame the injector set for a myriad of other engine/ support system issues. That further supports our 'in-engine' testing, to prove that we delivered a fully functioning set of injectors.

Btw: We do have a independent tuner who has seen that we regularly and reliably make injectors very close in comparison to the rest of the marketplace. We appreciate those compliments.

Franko6 Service

I purchased and installed my own nozzles a couple times before. I recently ended up doing a complete engine / big turbo rebuild after a timing belt tensioner mishap. I figured as long as I was going through all the trouble I would have the new nozzles installed and calibrated.

I sent my new nozzles to Frank to be installed and calibrated. He said they didn't work and sold me a set he assured would flow enough for my 2260 build. This was not the case at all. They flowed so little are car was going in to limp mode. After months of troubleshooting everything else, I bought a separate set of injector bodies and installed the nozzles I was told didn't work and it is been running fine ever since.

I emailed Frank telling him my issues and he emailed be back attacking me and playing the victim. Saying "Before you go to such lengths to condemn me, perhaps you should have given me a call. In all, it seems to me to be a very backward approach to settling your issues." ...I guess I should have gone to the cause of my problems to sell me something else to fix them.

After that I replied defending myself and offered to send back the nozzles, that he lied about and said would work, and asked for a refund. He stopped communicating with me at that point. Classic bait and switch. He also seems to like to only communicate on the phone so he can deny anything he has said.

I can't speak for anyone else's injector service, but I would stay away from Frank.

As far as running smoother and more power with less smoke that they always claim. I think that is more of a placebo affect after spending a nice chunk of money. There was definitely less smoke because it was so under-fueled, but can't say the engine ran any smoother than the times I mounted the nozzles myself.

I can go in to more detail, but figure this is a long enough post as it is.

"Waiter, ill take another large popcorn please. Extra butter, oh and that ketchup flavouring too."

Ketchup on popcorn? You guys get all the cool flavors.

Personally, I'd rather a specialist set up the nozzles on the injector bodies and calibrate them correctly. I do not know enough about to make the best set up possible. I want it to last me a decade, so a couple hundred bucks is worth it to me for the work, time and shipping and all that peace of mind know that it's going to be right and if it's not they have me covered.

bgsnyder said:

As far as running smoother and more power with less smoke that they always claim. I think that is more of a placebo affect after spending a nice chunk of money.

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My car was smoother and there wasn't much of a smoke issue, that was the bosio PP764's on stock ALH mapping. Wasn't from Frank though just to be clear, just saying how the car ran pretty dam sweet with new nozzles.

My #3 lift sensor was knackered but I had another so swapped all the insides and nozzles across which fixed that.


I wonder if the OP got his answer too