CR engine HPFP analysis

DoctorDawg

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Aug 26, 2008
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Southeastern US
TDI
'09 Jetta Loyal Edition
Also i would ask if the filling station is using fuel that complys with ASTM-D-975 Grade 2 S15 B5 or less biodiesel content standards.
...and watch the kid selling cigarettes and pork rinds behind the register look at you like you're speaking Sanskrit.
 

Rod Bearing

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Sep 18, 2007
Location
Fort Worth
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Several
Is the piston spring pressure the same on both of your pumps? Do you have a way to measure it's range and pressures at various points in that range?

I'd think that in the scenario where a piston somehow spins off it's axis, that the spring is the culprit. It is there to keep the roller on the cam at all times, both compressed or at bottom stroke.
 
Joined
Aug 11, 2007
Location
Chicago
TDI
1980 diesel Rabbit sold,2006 TDI jetta, traded 2009 TDI JSW, traded 2010 TDI JSW
After studying the self study manual

On page 36 of the manual it shows that the fuel around the cam and piston is separated from the fuel supplied at the piston pump by 2 fine filters. The only route for metal to get into the system would then be through the return line. Seems a simple filter in the return line would prevent metal from leaving the high pressure fuel pump.
Nimbus, that manual as a great find, think VW would let it be downloaded on this forum?
After studying the manual two things come to mind;
How can VW make such a complicated engine for under $30k ?
i now realize how much i miss my smoky 1980 diesel Rabbit!
Dennis in Chicago
35k miles 09 VW SW
no problems...yet
 
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Fixmy59bug

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Aug 1, 2009
Location
Las Vegas, NV
TDI
2015 Passat TDI SE
No, Dennis. What it is actually showing is the the fuel is pumped in to the HPFP through the bottom connection. It lubricates the cam and roller and is then sucked into the (what I will call) compression chamber through the top valve (green valve at the top). It is there that the piston (green rod) compresses it to a very high pressure, and is then ejected into the high pressure common rail (orange path).

So if the cam/roller chip away at each other, that contaminated fuel will still get sucked into the compression chamber. There is no way to filter that.

Read page 35 for information on the "Intake Stroke".
 
Joined
Aug 11, 2007
Location
Chicago
TDI
1980 diesel Rabbit sold,2006 TDI jetta, traded 2009 TDI JSW, traded 2010 TDI JSW
No, Dennis. What it is actually showing is the the fuel is pumped in to the HPFP through the bottom connection. It lubricates the cam and roller and is then sucked into the (what I will call) compression chamber through the top valve (green valve at the top). It is there that the piston (green rod) compresses it to a very high pressure, and is then ejected into the high pressure common rail (orange path).

So if the cam/roller chip away at each other, that contaminated fuel will still get sucked into the compression chamber. There is no way to filter that.

Read page 35 for information on the "Intake Stroke".
Are you missing the two areas in the feed port that have fine filters, see (page 33) before the piston pump....look at it again.
 
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Joined
Aug 11, 2007
Location
Chicago
TDI
1980 diesel Rabbit sold,2006 TDI jetta, traded 2009 TDI JSW, traded 2010 TDI JSW
Has anyone pulled the HPFP piston just to inspect it?
Does it have an O-ring or gasket?
Any reason not to pull it?
Dennis in Chicago
 

Grady

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Joined
Feb 4, 2000
Location
NW Oregon
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'01 Jetta
I've read some questions on this thread that can be anwsered by the following pdf. Not sure how long this will remain on the web, so save a copy.

http://www.dsd.go.th/itrain/km/kboc...Diesel_Engine_2.0L_TDI_CommonRail_BIN5_UL.pdf

See pages 26 - 41 for fuel system description and a nice overview of the HPFP operation. There are also descriptions of "Effect of Failures" for certain components.QUOTE]




In case anyone is trying to access the PDF, its still up, just with a slightly different address.

http://www.dsd.go.th/itrain/km/kboc...Diesel_Engine_2.0L_TDI_CommonRail_BIN5_UL.pdf


Index of the Test Project's links:
http://www.dsd.go.th/itrain/km/kboc/2010_TestProject_WSC40/Automobile/DOC33_IL_40CA/
 

JosephH1

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 29, 2009
Location
Lewiston, NY
TDI
2010 Silver 2dr
I'll be picking up a new TDI in a week or so am getting nervous about this mysterious roller.
Welcome to the club Saucer, I sold my 06 GTI due to the FSI problem (and some valve issues due to direct injection) and replaced it with a 2010 TDI. I guess I deserve this for being too stupid to run away from VW. I will not make this mistake again. That being said, VW very quietly fixed the FSI design flaw by 2008, hopefully they will get together with Bosch and do the same thing again. This time maybe we will be able retro the solution for our 2009-2011 TDIs. Hell maybe it will come down to keeping a spare HPFP on the shelf swapping them every 20k and having the in-service unit rebuilt. As insane as that is, it would be preferable to a 11k fuel system rebuild.
 
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vschaos

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Joined
Feb 11, 2010
Location
Ocean Springs, MS
TDI
2010 TDI Golf - retired, Another soon
Thanks for sharing the link again. Looking forward to a possible solution for us all. For now I am going to be using optilube xpd during my fill ups since I dont have any bio near me.
 

turborip

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 19, 2004
Location
Tennessee
hpfp replacement

Hey Oilhammer,
Just a thought,Can the hpfp be replaced with a new pump from pre- 2009 cars. I am no expert but the lower pressure pumps may be a conceration.

Rip
 

40X40

Experienced
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Location
Kansas City area, MO
TDI
2013 Passat SEL Premium
Hey Oilhammer,
Just a thought,Can the hpfp be replaced with a new pump from pre- 2009 cars. I am no expert but the lower pressure pumps may be a conceration.

Rip
2009 was the first year for Common Rail engines. There is no equivalent (even roughly) part on older cars. What is a 'conceration'?

Bill
 
Joined
Aug 11, 2007
Location
Chicago
TDI
1980 diesel Rabbit sold,2006 TDI jetta, traded 2009 TDI JSW, traded 2010 TDI JSW
Found metal specs on top of fuel filter of my 2009 JSW with 35800 miles.
Took it to the dealer for a filter change and offered to pay for the piston pump inspection if found ok. The service guy did not allow me to talk to the mechanic but he was very cooperative with me otherwise. i had already installed a clear inline filter downstream of the pump and injector returns to the top of the filter. It showed no metal. They did not inspect the piston, i suspect they normally just change the pump and do not have experience dismantling the pump (any VW mechanics here to verify?). The car has always run fine with no problems but i solved my sleepless nights by buying a new 2010 with lots of nice options the old one did not have...yes i am love with everything about this auto, even a $10,000 repair would not break the spell.
Sure wish someone on the forum worked for Bosch and could tell us the history of failures on all the common rail systems.
Dennis in Chicago
 

KraftwerkB6

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Mar 1, 2010
Location
Lexington Ky
TDI
2010 JSW
They did not inspect the piston, i suspect they normally just change the pump and do not have experience dismantling the pump (any VW mechanics here to verify?).
Do you mean a regular service with a fuel filter replaced? or during a HPFP failure do you check the pump?

During a regular service (depending on miles) the fuel filter just gets replaced. there are no reasons to look at the pump or take it off and inspect it during a service.

If there is a HPFP failure or another failure in the fuel system. I cant speak for everyone but i have taken the pump off and torn it apart to inspected it. i know of a couple others that have too. its kinda dumb not to and it gives a good idea what happens inside the pump.
 

JSWTDIPilot

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Jul 28, 2010
Location
Weschester, NY
TDI
2010 JSW TDI
KraftwerkB6 said:
If there is a HPFP failure or another failure in the fuel system. I cant speak for everyone but i have taken the pump off and torn it apart to inspected it. i know of a couple others that have too. its kinda dumb not to and it gives a good idea what happens inside the pump.
Do you have any pictures of the HPFP, both normal wear and damaged? I have yet to be able to see this illusive monster...
 

TonyJetta

Top Post Dawg
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Sep 15, 2005
Location
Tucson, Az
TDI
'15 Jetta TDI SE / '06 Jetta TDI DSG Pkg0 / '96 Passat TDI
Do you have any pictures of the HPFP, both normal wear and damaged? I have yet to be able to see this illusive monster...
Have you read the first post in this thread? Oilhammer has a few pictures up that are annotated quite well.

Tony
 

DanG144

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Location
Chapin, South Carolina, USA
TDI
2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
I have a pump, pressure regulator, rail, pressure regulator, and boost pump at my house, ready for show and tell. I had planned to do a show and tell at the last GTG, but no Common Rail's showed up, but my wife's - so I figured there would be little interest.
 

mtbr297

Vendor
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Nov 3, 2002
Location
Ft. Worth, TX., USA
TDI
2015 Golf TDI, Seat Leon FR PD 150 6 speed.
Portland GTG

I have a pump, pressure regulator, rail, pressure regulator, and boost pump at my house, ready for show and tell. I had planned to do a show and tell at the last GTG, but no Common Rail's showed up, but my wife's - so I figured there would be little interest.
Are you coming to the Portland GTG, if so can you bring these parts? Are they new, used, or worn condition?
 

woofie2

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2004
Location
Republic of Southern Illinois
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Former TDI owner
Sound to me like the HPFP is sensitive to slight changes in fuel lubricity.
from the HPFP failure thread-
You notice that the vast majority of these failures listed here are in southern and southwestern states? I wonder if the few others from NY, NH, OR drove south in the months before they had failures? Maybe it is a problem with Diesel being sold in the south? They do make different grades for different regions. Just spitballing here.
Could it be that slightly higher fuel temperature (average 5-10 degrees F warmer) would cause a larger problems because of lower lubricity of the fuel?

I know almost anywhere I have looked for ULSD Diesel locally, (within 75 to 100 miles) the pumps are listed as having 5-20% biomass fuel (AKA BioDiesel, or Southern FS soydiesel at 11% blend)
B2 (2% BioDiesel Mix) has 2 times more lubricity over straight ULSD Diesel #2. I added about 12 oz of canola and 3-4 oz of Power Service per 12 gallon fill up on my VE pump TDI, figured it was good protection against the lower lubricity of the fuel. Maybe the HPFP needs more lubrication too, so adding a lubricity agent would help protect against failure over the long lifetime?
 

glennmax

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Jan 29, 2010
Location
Charleston, SC
TDI
Golf VI
Joined
Aug 11, 2007
Location
Chicago
TDI
1980 diesel Rabbit sold,2006 TDI jetta, traded 2009 TDI JSW, traded 2010 TDI JSW
If there is a HPFP failure or another failure in the fuel system. I cant speak for everyone but i have taken the pump off and torn it apart to inspected it. i know of a couple others that have too. its kinda dumb not to and it gives a good idea what happens inside the pump.[/QUOTE]

Kraft,
Could you describe in more detail what is required to remove the piston only from the pump still installed in auto? Is there any pressure in the line after engine shutdown?
Can you inspect the cam after removing only the piston?
Dennis in Chicago
 

thanatos

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Aug 8, 2010
Location
HRM, Nova Scotia Canada
TDI
2011 Golf Sportwagen TDI
I am about to take delivery of a 2011... I asked the dealership about this issue as a concern and they were (as I had read) quick to direct me to the quality of fuel being used as their suspected cause, and indicated that this issue is prevalent more in the US than in Canada (where I am). The few vehicles they'd seen had travelled to the US. Does anyone know of Canadian run 09+ TDIs that have suffered this issue without having used US diesel?

To Kraftwerk (or anyone else that's taken things apart to inspect) how hard is it to remove things for inspection? Has anyone created (or seen) a DIY for this?

I also just found this document: http://www.johnfjensen.com/Diesel_fuel_additive_test.pdf
I'm not sure where to get this stuff locally but ... seems like it mightn't be a bad idea.
 
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JSWTDIPilot

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Weschester, NY
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2010 JSW TDI
I also just found this document: http://www.johnfjensen.com/Diesel_fuel_additive_test.pdf
I'm not sure where to get this stuff locally but ... seems like it mightn't be a bad idea.
Excellent link!! I'm especially struck by the fact Marvel actually makes things worse! Now we just need a study on the long term effects of these on our TDIs.

I've seen a laundry list of posts stating lubricity of ULSD diesel as a serious culprit to the HPFP problems. Only adding gasoline or fueling with "contaminated" diesel would lower the lubricity and further cause damage, possibly catastrophically. These components, especially the HPFP are under loads of stress!

Note these two links which have been posted around the TDIclub forums:
Bosch HFRR wear study: http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/gasoline/meeting/2003/022003bosch.pdf
Diesel Manufacturers Bio-Fuel Statement: http://www.bosch-kraftfahrzeugtechn...kus_1/FIEM_Common_Position_Statement_2009.pdf

Quote from Bio-Fuel Statement: "The US diesel specification (ASTM D 975-09) includes a lubricity value of 520 μm maximum (according to ASTM D 6079). It is expected that the useful operating lifetime of any mechanical component will be adversely affected by fuel with a lubricity exceeding 460 microns."

Now why does VW not want us to add additives that will raise our lubricity?
 

thanatos

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Location
HRM, Nova Scotia Canada
TDI
2011 Golf Sportwagen TDI
Quote from Bio-Fuel Statement: "The US diesel specification (ASTM D 975-09) includes a lubricity value of 520 μm maximum (according to ASTM D 6079). It is expected that the useful operating lifetime of any mechanical component will be adversely affected by fuel with a lubricity exceeding 460 microns."

Now why does VW not want us to add additives that will raise our lubricity?
AFAIK there is zero biofuel available in Canada, or at least on the East coast where I am. I'm pretty sure I read that B5 can be used (n/a for me, since I can't get it anyway) and that VW couldn't void the warranty for using biofuel in higher mixes than B5 (but that was on a forum and as much good info as forums have, there's even more speculation and fiction). My dealership also indicated that American diesel is not regulated the same way that Canadian is (presumably for quality and transportation requirements) however looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-low_sulfur_diesel it would appear that both US and Can specs are the same; 15p.p.m max sulfur content.

This statement was sort of confusing (wiki:ULSD):

It is, however, known to cause some seals to shrink (Source: Chevron paper) and may cause fuel pump failures in Volkswagen TDI engines used in pre-2009 models. TDI engines from 2009 and on are designed to use ULSD exclusively; biodiesel blends are reported to prevent that failure (Source: HRCCC.org Biodiesel Best Management Practices).

Seems sort of backwards; I've never heard of these issues prior to the 2009 2.0 TDI engine. (And I did have a B4 TDI Passat that didn't have any issues like that however... NOT having problems doesn't mean they aren't with someone else)
 
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