from the horse's mouth (EPA/CARB at SEMA)

turbobrick240

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I converted my '94 Raleigh hybrid to electric last winter. I am enjoying longer rides with less effort. The conversion was a fun project. Don't wish that I had anything else.
Nice. I have a 90's Trek hybrid that I've been pondering doing the same to. It'd be much cheaper than the Giant e-bikes my uncle bought last year.
 

BeetlePD

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I call bull s#!t.
300 fold increase in emissions from full deletes cancels any supposed benefit from less co2
Not bull****. NOx, soot, carbon monoxide, and unburned hydrocarbons directly damage human lungs when breathed in. For asthma sufferers the increased Smog from these pollutants can mean death. Increased CO2 output does not hurt human lungs.

And smog is not just a California problem. It also affects the Nottheast and Midatlantic which the EPA declared a “nonattainment zone”. These states have signs along I-95 that say “alert day yellow” or red.

As for sportscars like Challengers/Mustangs..... they are required to meet the exact-same emissions standards as a Honda Civic or Ford Focus. They are tuned to less than 0.05 gram of NOx per mile. Less than 0.05 gram of CO per mile. Et cetera

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BeetlePD

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I have a keyfob with dead battery. Alternate scenario: 12V battery is dead. If modern cars don’t have keyholes, how do you get in?
Turned into a bicycle thread.
Many environmentalists don’t realize that an electric or gasoline-powered bicycle is faaaar more efficient than human-powered. It burns less energy than the human body does (which does a lousy job converting food to work, and makes solid pollution). It’s basically the same reason we stopped using horses, which used to leave giant piles of crap in the cities

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BeetlePD

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Cars aren’t expensive. I bought a Ford Fiesta with manual for only $11,000. I also had the option of a Mitsubishi Mirage or Nissan Versa same price. Back in 2000 the cheapest car I could find was 17,000 (inflation adjusted to 2019 dollars), so prices have actually gone DOWN over the years

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nicklockard

Torque Dorque
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My brother got the letter from Green Diesel Engineering instructing him to reflash the vehicle back to stock and email proof (receipt) of it to GDE. They don't clearly say if he will be reimbursed for the original GDE tune, but they do say they will refund his reflash-to-stock expenses. It reads like whoever wrote and approved the GDE letter to customers didn't have adequate time to review it for clarity.
 

turbobrick240

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Many environmentalists don’t realize that an electric or gasoline-powered bicycle is faaaar more efficient than human-powered. It burns less energy than the human body does (which does a lousy job converting food to work, and makes solid pollution). It’s basically the same reason we stopped using horses, which used to leave giant piles of crap in the cities

.
I'd love to see a caloric breakdown of man vs. machine. The guy on his two stroke bicycle is obviously polluting the air far, far more than the guy pedalling. And there is still a person sitting on the powered bicycle consuming energy, just not as much.

Edit- found this: https://www.exploratorium.edu/cycling/humanpower1.html
 
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turbobrick240

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My brother got the letter from Green Diesel Engineering instructing him to reflash the vehicle back to stock and email proof (receipt) of it to GDE. They don't clearly say if he will be reimbursed for the original GDE tune, but they do say they will refund his reflash-to-stock expenses. It reads like whoever wrote and approved the GDE letter to customers didn't have adequate time to review it for clarity.
Wow. Sounds like GDE might be facing fines based on the number of tunes out in the wild. I having a feeling most customers won't be responding to the letter.
 

jverheul

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Humans are at best about 25% efficient at turning calories in into power on a bike. The rest goes mostly to heat. Humans, like some other mammals, produce methane as well.

Nice job going sub 10 in Markleeville Jack!

Yeah, no so happy about the hidden keyhole on my 15 GSW. Awkward to lock it while its warming up.
 

Lightflyer1

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I have a keyfob with dead battery. Alternate scenario: 12V battery is dead. If modern cars don’t have keyholes, how do you get in?
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Read your manual. There is a key hole it is just covered and not used the majority of the time. Only for emergencies like a dead battery. But if you are caring for your car this doesn't happen.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I read the letter (can't find it now) but I believe it was as clear as they wanted it to be.
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
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Arizona
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SOLD 2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
I read the letter (can't find it now) but I believe it was as clear as they wanted it to be.
Ehhh, maybe. My brother is living in CA, but resident in another state because he is employed by the DOD (enlisted military, E8).

This was our email discussion around a marked-up GDE letter: } said:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByfEll8W7ewvUHdBeklBMHZxU3FiRExVRXJ3aDFucExRbGRF/view?usp=sharing"]Full letter here.
Marked up:

It's really hard to say what CARB would try to do to you, except if they *know* you currently reside in CA, **I think** they will likely try to force you to follow the letter's intent which is driven by this EPA enforcement action: flash your ECU back to stock at the dealer and provide proof of it to GDE. I quote the letter here:
image.png
In the yellow highlight, they say 'including but not limited to'. I interpret this to mean that *IFF* CARB has the funds and manpower, they will probably send a request or referral to *undisclosed state* DMV and 'tattle' on you as a threat, or they may send YOU a letter threatening such to scare you into submission. But if they do not have time/money, they may prioritize it lower than the easy 'low hanging fruit' of CA-registered GDE customers.
If it were me facing this, I would gamble that the following series of actions is likely:
1. CARB knows that GDE sent the letter to you, along with the survey
2. CARB knows that your vehicle is not registered in CA
3. CARB *probably* send you a threat letter *iff* they know where you reside physically--this is the critical question. Which CA databases do you show up on?
4. CARB, *iff* they have a database record from some CA agency, *probably* will refer your vehicle's VIN to 'x'DMV, but it will probably be 6-9 months from now, and 'x'DMV or *Undisclosed* County and/or *undisclosed state* Air Resources Board will probably send out similar threat/demand letter to your *undisclosed state* address of record with the 'x'DMV. Ultimately, they will have to enforce this, if they have manpower and budget for it; but it's likely they are 'gearing up' with the legislature to get additional funds released to enforce.
(BTW the survey is linked to you. I can't even see the questions beyond page 1 where you confirm it's YOU.)
They clearly mention reimbursement for retuning the vehicle to stock but say nothing about refund for the original cost of tune. I suspect they'll pay out to anyone who gripes loud enough. For most CA residents, they get screwed unless they complain, I guess?
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

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I don't think the letter is unclear. My basic interpretation is that your brother has a tune in the truck that's illegal and CARB may do a number of things within its power to stop him from driving the truck unless he brings it back to stock. He could gamble (and probably win) that they won't reach out to his home state, but continuing to drive a vehicle that's been identified as afoul of CARB rules is just that, a gamble.

Please don't read this as holier than thou, as I have tuned cars, but I think we all knew that when we had our cars tuned we were violating EPA and CARB rules. Years ago it was a minimal risk. Now the risk is greater for individuals, but, if you believe what the EPA said at SEMA, not a lot greater. Your brother's situation is probably the worst case scenario, just short of having a deleted diesel fail inspection. It's unfortunate, but it's the world we now live in.
 
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nicklockard

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I don't think the letter is unclear. My basic interpretation is that your brother has a tune in the truck that's illegal and CARB may do a number of things within its power to stop him from driving the truck unless he brings it back to stock. He could gamble (and probably win) that they won't reach out to his home state, but continuing to drive a vehicle that's been identified as afoul of CARB rules is just that, a gamble. I believe Oregon follows CARB rules, don't they? So perhaps they would coordinate with other CARB states.

Please don't read this as holier than thou, as I have tuned cars, but I think we all knew that when we had our cars tuned we were violating EPA and CARB rules. Years ago it was a minimal risk. Now the risk is greater for individuals, but, if you believe what the EPA said at SEMA, not a lot greater. Your brother's situation is probably the worst case scenario, just short of having a deleted diesel fail inspection. It's unfortunate, but it's the world we now live in.
All good points, but you missed my point. GDE isn't saying they will reimburse users for the cost of the non-compliant tune, which they knowingly (though *wink *wink) sold to him. Either they are being intentionally vague to minimize losses, or the letter review process was rushed in haste internally at GDE.

Either way, my gut says they are freaking terrified of being shut down. I work in ISO 13485 business, and when letters like this go out to distributors and such, it means the sending company has the equivalent of a regulatory gun to their existential heads.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I hear from people who know folks at GDE that they're basically done. And I can't imagine how they'll continue to do any of the same type of business after this happens. I think there are other tuners that are at risk, too.

As a colleague pointed out, it's unfortunate as GDE's location is about 50 miles from the Canadian border. Moving that short distance may have saved them some pain.

I doubt they intend to or are financially able to reimburse customers for their tunes. And my point is that when we buy a tune we all know what we're buying, and shouldn't expect to be reimbursed should something like this happen, however unlikely.
 

Lightflyer1

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"My point is that when we buy a tune we all know what we're buying, and shouldn't expect to be reimbursed should something like this happen, however unlikely."
Yes the customer is at fault as much as GDE is. They both entered into a situation in which they both knew was illegal and that getting caught has its consequences. The customer should be aware there may be more coming their way as well, especially if they don't retune to stock.
 

Rrusse11

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"my point is that when we buy a tune we all know what we're buying, and shouldn't expect to be reimbursed should something like this happen, however unlikely." IBW

As the OP pointed out, the EPA are after diesel trucks which get modified
to the point where they "roll coal", and aren't shy about demonstrating it.
We all know it's illegal to delete cats et al, don't flaunt the fact.

I'm considering going stealth by removing my TDI badge.
Use your turn signals, stop at stop signs, lights all working, pay attention
to speed limits, etc etc.
Be smart about your tune and mods, and it's highly unlikely you'll be pulled over.
 

turbobrick240

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I don't think the EPA is much concerned about pre-dpf diesels. Most of those will have aged off the roads in the very near future.
 

GoFaster

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If GDE were required to refund all of their customers the original cost of their tuning plus the cost of putting it back to stock, they might as well declare bankruptcy now. Then nobody gets put back to stock. They may be done anyhow, but at least that way there might be at least a theoretical possibility of at least getting some of their customers put back to stock.

It might suck from the end user's perspective (to have paid out money to get tuned and then end up with nothing), but remember that the end user was complicit in having off-road-only tuning and equipment set up for driving on the road.
 

GoFaster

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Re being smart about vehicle mods ... Certainly. I don't own a vehicle that is not modified. But they are all non-attention-getting.

The difference in this situation is that it appears that EPA/CARB got their hands on GDE's customer list, and went after them that way. No one knows what the real world consequences are actually going to be, but they've certainly explained what they could be.
 

Lightflyer1

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I would also imagine whomever they go after, the customer lists will be at the top of their requests. Being discreet will have nothing to do with it. More than likely they will be turned over to the EPA or individual states and they will deny registration until a comprehensive inspection is done to insure things are back to stock. Failure to comply could result in seizure and crushing. Just my opinion as they required this of VW. If you aren't going to fix it then crush it. I would also bet they start hitting the importers of these items as well.
 

turbobrick240

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I'd only be concerned if I was a California resident with one of GDE's tunes. I doubt any action will be taken against those in other states.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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The only opportunity most states (including where I live) have to detect a tune is through state inspection. Tuners have designed tunes that aren't detectable by most states' inspection equipment. I can't imagine states initiating other efforts to find tuned cars, (diesel or gasoline powered). They have enough of a challenge keeping the system they have operating.

In Massachusetts they've recently ramped up the rigor of the inspection process to make sure stations aren't giving customers with marginal cars a pass, but it didn't include changes to the emissions system inspection. It's more focused on finding cars that have things like illegal tint that shouldn't pass inspection.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
The testing here (both safety and OBD) keeps losing its "tooth" so to speak, so I very much doubt anything will happen here. Besides, these gross polluters in question (domestic trucks with over 8500 GVWR) are not even OBD tested anyway (no 8500+ GVWR truck is, regardless of fuel type).

They just kicked the safety inspections now to 10 years or 150k miles. So until then, you get a free pass. Bald tires, inoperative lights or brakes, smashed windshields, suspension falling apart... all of which can most certainly happen in the first 10 years or 150k miles of a vehicle's life... will not be subjected to anything to be legal. :rolleyes:
 
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