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Old April 13th, 2019, 20:54   #316
[486]
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Originally Posted by ranger pete View Post
I suspect the only reason we haven't seen it yet has to do with our ridiculous regulatory system.
ehhhh

I can't really think of any regs prohibiting an add on battery assist setup. Plenty of dudes do full electric conversions all the time

The first gen insight guys have a setup for manual control of the assist/regen on their cars, they use a joystick to control it. Bet a similar setup in a more universal guise would be easy enough to toss together, couple wheel motors to bolt to the rear axle beam and a box with inverter and batteries you'd toss in the trunk. Only issue is that there's about a thousand different year/make/model to apply it to.
Make it for A4 VW chassis cars, and you won't sell very many as nobody's going to dump $5k into a 15 year old compact car. You'll never recoup that in fuel savings.
Make it for some brand new car and... Maybe get enough sales to recoup R&D. Unlikely.
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Old April 14th, 2019, 03:59   #317
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I understand there are plenty of tinkerers in their garages doing systems. I am not talking about them.

Those guys could not do small batch systems for particular models at a reasonable cost.

I am talking about larger scale systems done, probably by the manufacturers themselves as they would have to deal with all sorts of extra paperwork and legal nightmares.

As for it being economically justified simply by fuel savings, you are right. It wouldn't. I think the primary benefit would be to those that love manual transmissions....until they have to make the 3 mph slog into the office 5 days a week.

How many are driving autos because of this?

Wouldn't it be nice to just pop it into neutral and inch along via a low power electric motor to the rear wheels.
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Old April 15th, 2019, 06:04   #318
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Originally Posted by ranger pete View Post
I understand there are plenty of tinkerers in their garages doing systems. I am not talking about them.
Those guys could not do small batch systems for particular models at a reasonable cost.
I am talking about larger scale systems done, probably by the manufacturers themselves as they would have to deal with all sorts of extra paperwork and legal nightmares.
As for it being economically justified simply by fuel savings, you are right. It wouldn't. I think the primary benefit would be to those that love manual transmissions....until they have to make the 3 mph slog into the office 5 days a week.
How many are driving autos because of this?
Wouldn't it be nice to just pop it into neutral and inch along via a low power electric motor to the rear wheels.
And this is why it won't happen^^^ Against the law to do that most places, and the few it's not, frown heavily against it. If a system ever did get built and sold, I bet there would have to be safety built in so you couldn't do that.

I'll clutch in to coast to save fuel, but trans always stays in gear and engine running in case something happens.

Jason
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Old April 15th, 2019, 10:22   #319
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And this is why it won't happen^^^ Against the law to do that most places, and the few it's not, frown heavily against it. If a system ever did get built and sold, I bet there would have to be safety built in so you couldn't do that.
I'll clutch in to coast to save fuel, but trans always stays in gear and engine running in case something happens.
Jason
Um, he said trans in neutral, not engine off. Besides, if the electric motors are doing the propelling, it's not really in neutral, is it? After all, if the pure-EV mode disengages the engine from the wheels completely as noted up-thread, isn't this the same thing?

What Pete's talking about sounds like you'd still have an actively-coupled propulsion mechanism tied to the wheels (motors), and the engine is still running (feeding, via alternator, recharge power back into the batteries powering the motors).
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Old April 16th, 2019, 11:58   #320
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It's where a hybrid makes the most sense and delivers the biggest advantage in mpg.
And yet when driving through L.A. there’s no MPG difference between my Insight (no EV mode) and a standard Prius...... the EV mode doesn’t save as much fuel as you think, especially since the Prius only goes about 1 mile and then exits EV mode (running the engine continuously even when stopped)

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Old April 16th, 2019, 12:40   #321
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And yet when driving through L.A. there’s no MPG difference between my Insight (no EV mode) and a standard Prius...... the EV mode doesn’t save as much fuel as you think, especially since the Prius only goes about 1 mile and then exits EV mode (running the engine continuously even when stopped)
.
That's pretty poor hybrid performance. I've driven my son-in-law's Hyundai Ioniq a number of times. It's not the PHEV or EV, just the standard hybrid. It has no user control to keep it in EV mode, just throttle pressure. I can keep it in battery mode on the freeway doing 60 MPH for several miles, terrain and traffic permitting. Of course, that's just when cruising, not getting up to freeway speeds.

I drove it for a week to work, which includes climbing hills in both directions. My average MPG was 58.6, and that even included taking my grandson to his swimming class and climbing a very long hill to get back home. I think pure work driving I would have been over 60 MPG.

The commute times I drive usually doesn't have any slowdown or stop-and-go driving until I am on surface streets. I'm a believer in the car's ability to make some impressive distance on battery power alone. And I'm sure the battery in it is tiny.

My daughter's Pacifica PHEV will turn the engine off when stopped, even when the battery is "empty". I'm surprised the Prius doesn't have enough reserve to perform the usual hybrid functions with a low state battery.
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Old April 16th, 2019, 14:49   #322
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And yet when driving through L.A. there’s no MPG difference between my Insight (no EV mode) and a standard Prius...... the EV mode doesn’t save as much fuel as you think, especially since the Prius only goes about 1 mile and then exits EV mode (running the engine continuously even when stopped)
.
EV mode saves what it saves. How do you know what I think?
Your N=1example is like comparing Hondas to Toyotas.
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Old April 16th, 2019, 18:04   #323
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And this is why it won't happen^^^ Against the law to do that most places, and the few it's not, frown heavily against it. If a system ever did get built and sold, I bet there would have to be safety built in so you couldn't do that.
I'll clutch in to coast to save fuel, but trans always stays in gear and engine running in case something happens.
Jason
What's gonna happen? You are sitting parked, surrounded by cars, all inching along? You wanna have the ability to instantly plow into the car in front of you, if you get a sudden desire to?

Let's face it. EV is the only way to efficiently inch along in a traffic jam. Any ICE, no matter its efficiency is comparatively wasteful.

The car I envision would be a TDI with a completely stock manual trans drivetrain. It would have rear hub motors of maybe 5 hp each and a modestly sized LiIon battery pack. Shouldn't add much weight. A single motor driving a rear hub could have more power, but would be more expensive to retrofit, unless there is a bolt in IRS assy available. Perhaps one from a tiguan might bolt in.

This would provide ample power for inching along in traffic. It would improve efficiency and make inching along not only more efficient, but much more pleasant. As much as I love driving stick, that love fades quickly in a traffic jam.
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Old April 16th, 2019, 18:17   #324
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I've always preferred a stick in heavy traffic to an automatic that requires constant right foot on the brake. The clutch is feathered (especially with a diesel) and the car coasts cleanly.

TM
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Old April 17th, 2019, 04:09   #325
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To each his own. Seems a tap a brake with one foot is much easier than feathering a clutch. Especially if hills are involved.
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Old April 17th, 2019, 06:28   #326
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Tesla hasn’t built any $35,000 models yet. They are starting with the most-expensive models first (the ones 40,000 and up) and won’t begin manufacturer of base models until the summer.
ALSO: I could buy a $15,000 base Civic or Corolla or Focus or Versa or _____ and save 21,000 immediately (including taxes). Even if I drove them 200,000 miles worth of gasoline, I’d still be spending less money for the life of the car
.

They are already delivering the $35k Model 3. If the lowest total cost of ownership is all that interests you, a 2001 Geo Metro might be just the ticket.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/th...mry-2019-04-17

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Old April 17th, 2019, 18:21   #327
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To each his own. Seems a tap a brake with one foot is much easier than feathering a clutch. Especially if hills are involved.
The beauty of the manual in stop/go traffic is how easy it is to go into neutral. My right leg gets pretty tired holding the brake with an automatic.

Stopping on an uphill incline can be fixed with some manuals having a mechanism to hold an incline.

TM
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Old April 17th, 2019, 19:19   #328
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or just defeat the stupid shift interlock on your auto, and bump that into N when coming to a stop


hell, with my LTD sometimes I'll even bump it between D and R and never have to even touch the brake pedal
I'm sure the low reverse band doesn't like me, but I don't care what it thinks
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Old April 20th, 2019, 03:58   #329
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The beauty of the manual in stop/go traffic is how easy it is to go into neutral. My right leg gets pretty tired holding the brake with an automatic.
Stopping on an uphill incline can be fixed with some manuals having a mechanism to hold an incline.
TM
You need to get to the gym and do some right leg presses.

The amount of work done feathering along a car doing a 2 legged 3 pedal dance is way more than pushing/lifting from a powered brake pedal.
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Old April 20th, 2019, 09:21   #330
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Tesla's online web page says they start at $39,500.

https://www.tesla.com/model3/design#battery

Not including a charger or installation and reductions for tax incentives and such.
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