Kerma tune + vibration

mercdude

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Joined
Feb 20, 2018
Location
Northern CA
TDI
2013 JSW TDI 6SPD
13 jsw tdi 6 speed stock, had Kerman’s most recent updated tune uploaded and although great power and mileage I’m getting a nasty vibration on full acceleration in 6th around 70mph. Feels like axle is coming apart or motor mount is broke, it’s bad. Dealer has confirmed the issue but couldn’t find any physical reason for it even after axle replacement. Kerma says they’ve never had a complaint before and it’s my car. When not uploaded no issues whatsoever throughout powerband or speed.

Anyone else experienced this??? Thoughts?


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ToBiN

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Feb 9, 2017
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Colorado
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2013 Sportwagen TDI/M6; 2006 Dodge 3500 Cummins/M6 Mega Cab; 2011 Jetta TDI/M6 (sold)
Interested.
I have the same car. Can you or have you tried pulling off the tune?
 

yahmon

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Dec 27, 2012
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canada
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04 passat tdi 6spd stage2 webasto TC3 , 04 passatW8 6 spd, 10 Jetta TDI 6spd stage 1
Sounds like flywheel shudder, which Kerma would be able to fix easily. Did they not mention that at all?
Go with that, mine likes to do it in 4th from time to time, right at 1800rpm
 

mercdude

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Feb 20, 2018
Location
Northern CA
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2013 JSW TDI 6SPD
Interested.

I have the same car. Can you or have you tried pulling off the tune?


I did. Without tune, no vibration. Kerma originally sent me a less intense tune, and I have that one uploaded now. Only a bit of vibration with hard wheel spin in the rain otherwise all good. But it’s at least 40tq less than Kermas current tune.


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mercdude

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Feb 20, 2018
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Northern CA
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2013 JSW TDI 6SPD
Sounds like flywheel shudder, which Kerma would be able to fix easily. Did they not mention that at all?


Not really. They were pretty defensive and told me to just downshift at highway speeds because I was lugging my tdi at 2k rpm. Huh???

I eventually got a hold of the tuner and he thought motor mounts. Bad mounts make metallic rattling, it’s hard to mistake and that’s not what’s going on. I thought maybe a bad right axle, so it was replaced under vw warranty, but didn’t help.

Could be clutch slipping due to pressure plate clamping force but it’s just a guess and at 85k the clutch is far from needing to be replaced under normal conditions.


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adjat84th

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Dec 13, 2008
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Virginia Beach, VA
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'01 Jetta TDI/'15 Golf TDI
Slipping clutch symptoms are typically elevated RPMs without any matching acceleration. From what I have read here, flywheel shudder doesn't show up on the MK6 until you upgrade to at least a CR170 turbo. However, with mileage, you may be seeing that symptom earlier? I'm sure the tuner you spoke with knows what's up here, but I would suspect an aging DMF.
 

mercdude

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Feb 20, 2018
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Northern CA
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2013 JSW TDI 6SPD
Kerma said that the cr170 upgrade wasn’t that much different than their tune. So maybe it’s the dmf? If so what are my options for a dmf upgrade besides a smf?


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gimpster

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Feb 1, 2019
Location
Eastern Washington
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2015 Audi A3 TDI, 2013 VW Passat TDI (retired)
I have the Kerma tune on my A3 and so far I've put about 20k miles on it. When I got the tunes in August I was given both a Stage 1 and Stage 1+. I'm quoting the directions I was given when Charlie sent these to me:

Stage 1+ is slightly more powerful. But it will require slightly more awareness at certain times. There may be some clutch shudder at ~2000 rpm in 4th/5th/6th gear when you really get in it hard. This can be easily avoided by downshifting or not matting the accelerator at those rpm ranges in high gears, though. Also, if you are ~3500+ rpm in 4th gear at 85-90 mph with your foot on the floor, you may encounter brief "bumps" as power is reduced for a moment. This would be the EGT limiter kicking on to tell you to let up on the throttle a bit and not abuse the car so harshly. These are the tradeoffs that come with the more powerful tune.
I have experienced the shudder you mention with both tunes. So far I've done about a 50/50 split between the Stage 1 and Stage 1+ tunes. I can definitely feel the extra power of the Stage 1+ and so I prefer to run it, but I did spend quite a bit of time with the Stage 1 to see if I would prefer the decreased shudder with the lower power. I just switched back to the Stage 1+. From my own research, I felt that this was what others were describing as flywheel shudder and I confirmed this when I emailed KermaTDI as a follow-up to the last 6 months + 20k miles of driving on these tunes. I wanted to know if there was any concern of damaging anything and whether there were any other upgrades I could do that would alleviate that risk. I asked if there was any risk of damaging anything or if this was more of an "inconvenience" to the normal smooth driving of the stock tuning. The response I received back was this:

The shudder is an inconvenience but it's easy to drive around it
Some cars do it more readily than others
DSG tune will help
Now, I will agree that in my dealings with KermaTDI, they can come across a little short and may be interpreted as rude by some people. I personally just see it as "no-BS" and straight to the point. I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about these things as I'm sure others on the board are, but the way I wrap my head around the symptoms is this. When you're in 4th, 5th, and 6th gears you can easily put a lot of strain on the drivetrain. Think of it like driving a manual and you're trying to start from a dead stop in 3rd gear. The engine lugs, the clutch has to be eased in, etc. With these torquey little motors cranking out mountains of force at such low RPM where the engine isn't able to put all of that to the ground, then something, somewhere is going to absorb it. I don't pretend to know what exactly is causing the shudder in the flywheel, but I definitely understand the recommendation to keep the RPMs above 2k when you're in those higher gears. And I can consistently reproduce the behavior from about 1500 RPM but it immediately goes away when you cross the 2000 RPM line. If you're burying your foot because you want the acceleration, then you also probably want to be in those higher RPM ranges anyway. I do 80% of my driving on cruise control on the freeway @ 70mph, so I normally have it in "D" and the shudder shows up easily under these conditions when you want to give it a little gas to pass someone because the transmission doesn't want to downshift unless you really bury your foot in the throttle. Switching to "S" pretty much eliminates this issue completely because it is more eager to downshift. The same thing can be done by flicking over to "M" and dropping 1 gear.

The DSG tune for the MQB chassis is finally available. It wasn't when I got my engine tune or I would have done it at the same time. I just put the order in for it because I believe that it will help with this and also address some of my other complaints about the stock DSG shifting behavior. It should make the "D" mode more eager to downshift in these situations and avoid the shudder and the higher torque limit that the DSG tune provides should also help eliminate this shudder, from my understanding in the research I've done about flywheel shudder and tuning DSG transmissions.

All that being said, I'm still learning, so I'm happy to be corrected if I've misrepresented any of this. But thought you'd appreciate hearing my experience with the same company on a similar vehicle. If you drive like me, and the workarounds are annoying for you, then I'd suggest getting the DSG tune for your car and that should fix it all up for you.
 
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yahmon

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Dec 27, 2012
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canada
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04 passat tdi 6spd stage2 webasto TC3 , 04 passatW8 6 spd, 10 Jetta TDI 6spd stage 1
Slipping clutch symptoms are typically elevated RPMs without any matching acceleration. From what I have read here, flywheel shudder doesn't show up on the MK6 until you upgrade to at least a CR170 turbo. However, with mileage, you may be seeing that symptom earlier? I'm sure the tuner you spoke with knows what's up here, but I would suspect an aging DMF.
You would think clutch slippage should happen at maximum torque.
 

mercdude

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Feb 20, 2018
Location
Northern CA
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2013 JSW TDI 6SPD
I have a 6 speed manual so the dsg issues are not exactly the same, but in the same ballpark. Ya the 1+ tune has a lot more umph than 1. But it Sounds like Charlie spent more time discussing things with you, I got much briefer discussions. Overall I really like kermas tunes, I was just surprised by this vibration issue and then to be sorta dismissed didn’t make me feel great. Anyways, I’d replace the dmf with an upgraded unit but it’s expensive - like 3k for the whole job. Not a cheap job just for the heck of it without more specifics/direction.


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adjat84th

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Dec 13, 2008
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Virginia Beach, VA
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'01 Jetta TDI/'15 Golf TDI
You would think clutch slippage should happen at maximum torque.
OP says flooring it in 6th gear at 70mph (near 2k rpm) is causing vibration. That's peak torque. If the clutch was slipping, they would see RPMs go up considerably with no matching acceleration...not a vibration.

mercdude, stock flywheel runs around $500. A Sachs upgraded DMF (with clutch and pressure plate) is right around $1k. Labor on this should not be more $600-$800 for someone familiar with these cars. Are there any trusted TDI mechanics in your area? They may be able to tell you for sure if it's the flywheel or not.

If your tuner has already reduced peak torque and that helped slightly, to me that points right at the DMF.
 
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mercdude

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Northern CA
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2013 JSW TDI 6SPD
Only shop in town that has handled these cars gave me an estimate of $1k. Also while I’m in there I’d want to add a wave trac limited slip so it starts to add up quick. Just not ready to drop that kind of coin. That said, where would I source the Sachs upgraded dmf and clutch kit? Ecs, Kerma?


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adjat84th

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'01 Jetta TDI/'15 Golf TDI
I have the Sachs SRE DMF kit from Darkside. 400ft-lbs capacity is way more than you need, but if you're adding a LSD, maybe you're looking to go higher in the future

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Rrusse11

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PA Deutsch Country
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2002 Golf, 5spd; 05 Jeep CRD
"just downshift at highway speeds because I was lugging my tdi at 2k rpm. Huh???"

You've now got a different engine, learn to drive it properly. Keep it
in the mid 2's and stop lugging it. Get a SMF clutch, I highly recommend the SBC stage 2 End,
and you'll probably need a Fluidampr as well.
That's what I had to do with my Mk6.

You're throwing more power at the stock setup, this is
the slippery slope of modding, buying a tune is only the beginning.
An LSD is a great addition to any car IMO, but it gets expensive in
a hurry. Adding power is the ez part, getting it on the road efficiently and smoothly is the tricky part.


My $.02

 

yahmon

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canada
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04 passat tdi 6spd stage2 webasto TC3 , 04 passatW8 6 spd, 10 Jetta TDI 6spd stage 1
OP says flooring it in 6th gear at 70mph (near 2k rpm) is causing vibration. That's peak torque. If the clutch was slipping, they would see RPMs go up considerably with no matching acceleration...not a vibration.

mercdude, stock flywheel runs around $500. A Sachs upgraded DMF (with clutch and pressure plate) is right around $1k. Labor on this should not be more $600-$800 for someone familiar with these cars. Are there any trusted TDI mechanics in your area? They may be able to tell you for sure if it's the flywheel or not.

If your tuner has already reduced peak torque and that helped slightly, to me that points right at the DMF.
Mine does the same as his, it is like a shudder and not an rpm runaway, likely something caused by clutch and DMF
 

yahmon

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canada
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04 passat tdi 6spd stage2 webasto TC3 , 04 passatW8 6 spd, 10 Jetta TDI 6spd stage 1
"just downshift at highway speeds because I was lugging my tdi at 2k rpm. Huh???"

You've now got a different engine, learn to drive it properly. Keep it
in the mid 2's and stop lugging it. Get a SMF clutch, I highly recommend the SBC stage 2 End,
and you'll probably need a Fluidampr as well.
That's what I had to do with my Mk6.

You're throwing more power at the stock setup, this is
the slippery slope of modding, buying a tune is only the beginning.
An LSD is a great addition to any car IMO, but it gets expensive in
a hurry. Adding power is the ez part, getting it on the road efficiently and smoothly is the tricky part.


My $.02
They pull hard from 1800 rpm, that's what they were meant to do from factory. they also were made in 170, 190, 240hp factory versions. a simple clutch upgrade should cure this.
 

Rrusse11

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Jan 23, 2014
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PA Deutsch Country
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2002 Golf, 5spd; 05 Jeep CRD
Mine does the same as his, it is like a shudder and not an rpm runaway, likely something caused by clutch and DMF

You have a kerma tune too? My mk6 with a cr170 turbo dynoed around 180Whp and 300'#s. I was Jeff's (Rocketchip) first tune with that turbo.
Never had a shudder, but the DMF went out. Pulling hard from 1800rpm in 6th was never something I did. I dropped it into 5th.
Motor was much happier, and the car was quick.

Read this thread for other's opinions;
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=495351


 

yahmon

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canada
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04 passat tdi 6spd stage2 webasto TC3 , 04 passatW8 6 spd, 10 Jetta TDI 6spd stage 1
different tune but same symptom and different gear. Mine will do it in first if I launch hard and also in 4th from 1800 to 2000.
 

Yourbuddysatin

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Oct 28, 2016
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Pennsylvania
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2013 Jetta tdi
I know I’m a disappointment ....I’ll leave all the goodies from my golf. It will be fun. Wife calls my mk6 a dads car...now I feel old.
 

mercdude

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2013 JSW TDI 6SPD
Welp now I’m sold on not tuning my CJAA for a good while. Plus not voiding that warrenty.


You shouldn’t be discouraged. Like others have said, the lower level tunes work flawlessly.

Btw Kerma persuaded me against a turbo upgrade because it wouldn’t give any more power than the tune, only lower egt’s. And according to kerma the tune is giving 170/350 to the wheels. I haven’t dyno’ed to verify but it feels damn quick and will spin wheels hard in first and second gear. Almost scary in the rain tbh. Hence the wave trac lsd.


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mercdude

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Northern CA
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2013 JSW TDI 6SPD
They pull hard from 1800 rpm, that's what they were meant to do from factory.

Exactly. If we were discussing a 1.8t then I’d agree with lugging, but these tdi’s are like the old pushrod v8s in how they deliver power. IMO Dropping down a gear is a way to cover up the symptom of something else going on - works yeah, but you shouldn’t have to do it.


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mercdude

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Northern CA
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2013 JSW TDI 6SPD
Quick question: has anyone that shares the same vibration issue tried to replicate the vibration with and without traction control turned on? I had some replication of the vibration in the rain in 3rd gear and I then without the traction control I couldn’t replicate. So wondering if that’s the issue -
Thoughts?


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DAKOTAKIDD

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Feb 5, 2009
Location
BC Canada
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91 Eco Diesel Jetta
For my shutter/vibration—-I don’t have traction control on my car

Cheers


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mercdude

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Feb 20, 2018
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Northern CA
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2013 JSW TDI 6SPD
For my shutter/vibration—-I don’t have traction control on my car

Cheers


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You have a mk6 cr tdi, correct? My ‘13 jsw has traction control as ASR - Seems like every vag product would have some sort of tc by this point.


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DAKOTAKIDD

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91 Eco Diesel Jetta
Mine is an MK4. But I Experience the same issue just I don’t have traction control.


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Owain@malonetuning

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Jul 1, 2016
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Vancouver
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PD jetta wagon
Worst case Ontario tuning is fully adjustable on our end, can pull out torque by gear and only for ~200-300rpm sections which is usually enough.

Wide open from lower RPM in 5th/6th is usually the main culprit.
 
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