www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You




Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > TDI Fuel Economy

TDI Fuel Economy Discussions about increasing the fuel economy of your TDI engine. Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 6th, 2018, 11:36   #1
RedKaotik
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Los Angeles
Default High mileage

Hello all,

I recently rebuild the top end of my engine and. After going through the whole process and adding some mods like egr delete,tank vent, 216 nozzels and adjusting my IQ and IP timing I’m at half tank and my odometer shows 236 miles

So let’s assume I hit 250, that’s 500 miles for 15.5 gallons
So I’m averaging 32mpg hmm

What am I doing wrong??
ALH engine auto odometer shows 140k but vag commander showed 223k
I have stock rims.
New air filter/fuel filter
No leaks as far as I can see.


The only thing that I don’t know is my mechanical timing, I used tools but the timing mark guides were contradictory and some said to split the O and others placed it at the bottom.

Any help would be much appreciated as I just wanted to make a economical daily driver for my 70 mile LA commute.

Mikhail
RedKaotik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6th, 2018, 12:27   #2
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut Vendor
 
oilhammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: St Louis
Fuel Economy: fantastic
Default

My sticky at the top of this section.
__________________
oilhammer
www.cardocautomotive.com
oilhammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6th, 2018, 15:40   #3
RedKaotik
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Los Angeles
Default

Tires: Tires are old dunlop. need to be changed but match original oem spec.

Alignment: it doesn't veer left or right but my suspension is worn and i will be upgrading to a coilover system this week if the parts ever arrive.

Trim pieces and shields: missing lower engine shield. missing left and right grill insert blocks.

Thermostat: brand new, hits operating temp fast.

Timing: when you say timing belt was installed wrong, wouldn't it not run at all or damage the engine?

Air cleaner/air flow sensor (MAF): EGR has been deleted. no CEL, performed a MAF twist but maybe this is making my fuel economy suffer.


Intake/EGR clogging: cleaned before headgasket replacement.

Brakes: brakes go back to full stop.
brand new wastegate actuator and hand pump set to 18" maybe too low?

turbocharger: need to perform boost check.

Driving style: so mine belches out black smoke if i slam on the throttle at any point and time.

Excess weight: empty.


oilhammer, like you mentioned it could be multiple issues above causing this 15 mpg drop.
but its been a little bit hard to test for what to fix because this is my first diesel.. and first turbo.

some people say that the coal roll when you hit the pedal hard is normal and others say theirs doesn't even spurt a pinch of black.

Last edited by RedKaotik; March 6th, 2018 at 15:47.
RedKaotik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6th, 2018, 16:13   #4
UFO
Veteran Member
 
UFO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: A mile high
TDI(s): 2001 Beetle
Fuel Economy: 50mpg on B100
Default

City driving with lots of braking?
__________________
2001 Beetle - EGR delete, 01M-ectomy, Atlas skidplate, vented, Frostheater.
I'm not coasting, I'm shifting slowly.

UFO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6th, 2018, 18:56   #5
RedKaotik
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Los Angeles
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by UFO View Post
City driving with lots of braking?
Itís pretty mixed but when I drive home for 30 miles it does take me over an hour of stop and go traffic
RedKaotik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2018, 00:54   #6
RedKaotik
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Los Angeles
Default Maf

what does it mean if my MAF reading is 500 at 3,000 rpms
RedKaotik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2018, 04:57   #7
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut Vendor
 
oilhammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: St Louis
Fuel Economy: fantastic
Default

Put the MAF and EGR back to stock, check the timing both mechanically (with the appropriate tools) and in the Basic Settings (with scan tool). Replace all your missing shields. Make sure the snow screen is clean or gone (you can use a late style cold weather air filter element in its place if you like).

Then, after all that, graph the boost actual vs. requested, see that it is tracking closely. It is normal for a quick spike when you initially stab the go pedal, but it should settle back down quickly. I like to watch it over a long period in one gear (a higher one) during a good acceleration run. Like 4th gear from 40 to 60.

You put bigger nozzles in, but reduced the air flow, and have done no software changes to make use of that. So that alone may be your issue.
__________________
oilhammer
www.cardocautomotive.com
oilhammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2018, 15:28   #8
RedKaotik
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Los Angeles
Default

Cleaned up the MAF and put it back, EGR will take some time because the coolant hoses are gone.

I have a bigger issue now. on my drive to work today car went into limp mode and during lunch I had a underboost engine code.

black smoke like crazy.
RedKaotik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2018, 15:55   #9
IndigoBlueWagon
TDIClub Enthusiast
Principal IDParts
Vendor
w/Business number
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: South of Boston
Fuel Economy: 50/45/37
Default

First thing I'd do is check for a detached boost hose. Might be an easy fix.
__________________
2002 Jetta wagon, 375K, RC3+; 1993 Mercedes-Benz 300D 2.5, 197K; 1997 Passat, 286K; '99.5 Golf, 259K; 2011 335d, 56K; 2015 Golf Sportwagen, 11K. Principal, http://www.idparts.com
Kid's cars: 2002 Golf TDI, 2002 Jetta TDI
IndigoBlueWagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 8th, 2018, 04:46   #10
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut Vendor
 
oilhammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: St Louis
Fuel Economy: fantastic
Default

Or a giant charge air leak. Usually a control side vacuum leak (no VNT operation) results in low fueling too, so no smoke. But if the turbo is working enough to make some boost, but it is simply not making it all the way into the engine (like a charge air leak), the ECU will still be fueling so there is too much fuel for not enough air, and you'll get some smoke at first.

Seems like I have to keep saying this, but if you want your EGR deleted, you NEED to do it with software, not just "blocking it off". The ECU wants to see a certain amount of MAF to work the EGR. If the EGR is blocked, but the ECU does not know it, it is going to flake around with the rest of the engine management, and the engine will not run as good as it could, nor will its fuel economy be as good as it could. I run into this in the shop here from ill informed DIYs a half dozen times a year, and I see it play out on these forums more than that. I really wish people would understand something before they go changing and needlessly modifying things. This is not directed at the OP specifically but just in general.

The ALH is a good engine, right out of the box, exactly as it left the factory. With ULSD, the chronic and bad intake clogging is a thing of the past. It just is. If anyone's primary goal is for fuel economy, the ALH in 100% healthy and stock form and maintained properly by the book with good quality stuff will excel in that regard. It is a fool's errand to go after "improving" something that is not already functioning at 100% to begin with. Because then you end up with a mess and you have to start back over and ground zero to get it ironed out.

Sorry for the rant, I have just been dealing with a lot of this lately. This week had a guy get pissed off at me when he brought his car in "so I could chip it" since he thought it was "too slow". Well, guess what? The MIL staring him in the face was trying to tell him the turbo was not working among other things, and the lack of brake assist was not even mentioned let alone the brakes that were downright unsafe or the puddle of fuel under the car from the pump leaking all over the place. When I told him what all the car needed (it had clocked a respectable 365k miles already) he dismissed it, and asked "now, how much is that chip thing again?".

We sent him away.... poor car.
__________________
oilhammer
www.cardocautomotive.com
oilhammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 8th, 2018, 06:20   #11
clacker
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Oxford Mills, Ontario, Canada
Default

Did the VNT vanes move freely when you had the actuator off? The full range? I would look very carefully at them, the lever should flop up and down a good half inch without any restriction or binding.
Sounds like the car is automatic when you mention the 0 for the timing mark, 500 miles on a tank for an auto is not bad for mixed driving. We did worse with similar mods (egr, 205 injectors) on autos, 400 when really pushing things. But averaged 550, topped out at 700 once...
You need Vagcom to see what is going on. It will smoke with 216 and auto, that is for sure. My guess is the vnt is sticky, the maf is getting old and results in too much fuel and poor FE.
__________________
2015 Golf TDI Sportwagon Trendline DSG
2000 Jetta Gls TDI 545km 18 years now
2008 Mercedes R320 cdi kid mover
2006 smart fortwo cdi real fuel economy!
many Mercedes W123/116/126 projects all diesel.
clacker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 8th, 2018, 06:26   #12
IndigoBlueWagon
TDIClub Enthusiast
Principal IDParts
Vendor
w/Business number
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: South of Boston
Fuel Economy: 50/45/37
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oilhammer View Post
Sorry for the rant, I have just been dealing with a lot of this lately. This week had a guy get pissed off at me when he brought his car in "so I could chip it" since he thought it was "too slow". Well, guess what? The MIL staring him in the face was trying to tell him the turbo was not working among other things, and the lack of brake assist was not even mentioned let alone the brakes that were downright unsafe or the puddle of fuel under the car from the pump leaking all over the place. When I told him what all the car needed (it had clocked a respectable 365k miles already) he dismissed it, and asked "now, how much is that chip thing again?".
We sent him away.... poor car.
I've seen Jeff at RC refuse to chip cars like that, which usually results in confusion by the owner. It's sad that people let repairs accumulate until the cost is overwhelming. There are a few big ticket items on TDIs and if two fail at once it's a big deal. As an aside, I'm a pretty religious user of fuel lubricity additive and have yet to have an IP leak or fail.
__________________
2002 Jetta wagon, 375K, RC3+; 1993 Mercedes-Benz 300D 2.5, 197K; 1997 Passat, 286K; '99.5 Golf, 259K; 2011 335d, 56K; 2015 Golf Sportwagen, 11K. Principal, http://www.idparts.com
Kid's cars: 2002 Golf TDI, 2002 Jetta TDI
IndigoBlueWagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 8th, 2018, 16:52   #13
RedKaotik
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Los Angeles
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oilhammer View Post
Or a giant charge air leak. Usually a control side vacuum leak (no VNT operation) results in low fueling too, so no smoke. But if the turbo is working enough to make some boost, but it is simply not making it all the way into the engine (like a charge air leak), the ECU will still be fueling so there is too much fuel for not enough air, and you'll get some smoke at first.
Seems like I have to keep saying this, but if you want your EGR deleted, you NEED to do it with software, not just "blocking it off". The ECU wants to see a certain amount of MAF to work the EGR. If the EGR is blocked, but the ECU does not know it, it is going to flake around with the rest of the engine management, and the engine will not run as good as it could, nor will its fuel economy be as good as it could. I run into this in the shop here from ill informed DIYs a half dozen times a year, and I see it play out on these forums more than that. I really wish people would understand something before they go changing and needlessly modifying things. This is not directed at the OP specifically but just in general.
The ALH is a good engine, right out of the box, exactly as it left the factory. With ULSD, the chronic and bad intake clogging is a thing of the past. It just is. If anyone's primary goal is for fuel economy, the ALH in 100% healthy and stock form and maintained properly by the book with good quality stuff will excel in that regard. It is a fool's errand to go after "improving" something that is not already functioning at 100% to begin with. Because then you end up with a mess and you have to start back over and ground zero to get it ironed out.
Sorry for the rant, I have just been dealing with a lot of this lately. This week had a guy get pissed off at me when he brought his car in "so I could chip it" since he thought it was "too slow". Well, guess what? The MIL staring him in the face was trying to tell him the turbo was not working among other things, and the lack of brake assist was not even mentioned let alone the brakes that were downright unsafe or the puddle of fuel under the car from the pump leaking all over the place. When I told him what all the car needed (it had clocked a respectable 365k miles already) he dismissed it, and asked "now, how much is that chip thing again?".
We sent him away.... poor car.



Ok so, upper inter cooler pipe slipped off, hard to tell but I was replacing the front shocks and the intercooler was covered in oil spray.

I still think my MAF may be slightly faulty it just seems a bit off on VCDS readings.

Power has returned. I did move the actuator arm a bit, it did feel a little rough but it moved, I on blasted the actuator just it case and moved it up and down a bit. I will have a boost gauge soon so Iíll be able to eat a better idea of my readings soon.

Oilhammer, I will unplug the EGR. Want to clean it if becomes plugged
RedKaotik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 8th, 2018, 16:55   #14
RedKaotik
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Los Angeles
Default

Can I just run a pipe from the exhaust manifold to the egr bypassing the cooling system.
Restoring the entire system is just cost prohibitive.

Last edited by RedKaotik; March 8th, 2018 at 17:21.
RedKaotik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 9th, 2018, 05:10   #15
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut Vendor
 
oilhammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: St Louis
Fuel Economy: fantastic
Default

OK, once again (I think I have said it twice now... ?) the EGR operation is controlled via the ECU's ability to watch the MAF. If you have no EGR function, your MAF will NEVER read correctly, because the EGR is not working.

ECU commands EGR on ---> more air comes into the engine via the EGR ---->
less air comes into the engine through the air cleaner ---> MAF value drops. Since the ECU is not programmed to expect this, it cannot control its other functions the same. Because one of its main inputs, the MAF, is in error all the time. The only time it expects the MAF to read the full airflow into the engine is when it commands the EGR off. Which is only after idle speed for several minutes or when you mash the pedal to the floor asking for full output from the engine. Any other time, the EGR is on (duty cycled, it isn't really an ON/OFF system), and it works that duty cycle to match the actual to requested MAF.

Now, if you want a "proper" EGR delete, the software needs to be changed, so that the ECU is never looking for this part of the MAF function, because it is simply not ever working the EGR. That portion is simply written out of the software, or in some cases they just delete the MAF reading altogether, and just plug in a fixed value for the MAF that never changes (one of my ALHs is like this). The MAF stays steady at 450, never changes. The ECU controls everything else based off of other inputs, and just works with that fixed value for the MAF. It works, but it may make for a little less power overall because it is limiting boost and fueling based off of a limited value.

HOWEVER, given your location, you may find your car's emissions control system has to remain not only electronically (meaning, readiness monitors and OBD compliance) working, but may also need to be physically intact for a visual inspection. So sooner or later, you will have to determine what the case is for you and your car in your area.

You can easily add power to the engine that appears totally stock AND will be completely OBD compliant for a simple readiness check/MIL check. All that takes is software. We do it all the time. But, this should not be considered if the car is not already in good order stock AND as I stated earlier, may not be the best option for someone whose primary wants are high fuel economy and nothing else.
__________________
oilhammer
www.cardocautomotive.com
oilhammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
High Mileage PinHead General Automotive 7 August 29th, 2014 13:09
Going to have high mileage..... FLPara407 VW MKVI-A6 Golf family including Jetta SportWagen (~ 2010-2014) 18 November 26th, 2012 09:46
Mileage - How high is too high to buy? Geordi TDI 101 8 May 20th, 2012 08:44
High Mileage sodapop6620 VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) 154 August 16th, 2010 15:25


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 21:13.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
© 1996 - 2017, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.18385 seconds with 12 queries
[Output: 136.43 Kb. compressed to 115.13 Kb. by saving 21.30 Kb. (15.61%)]