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Dieselgate - VW Group Emission Scandal Discussion around the VW Dieselgate Emissions scandal. Details and news updates can be viewed here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=448336 This forum is a work in progress depending on requirements, usage, etc.

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Old February 20th, 2018, 20:14   #106
Matt-98AHU
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bizzle View Post
Do you think that "quite a resurgence" is a bit of an overstatement given that nearly every single (individual) auto manufacture sells as many cars in a single quarter as VW managed to sell during this entire CR era?
To put this in perspective, VW sold roughly half a million TDIs within the past decade. In January this year alone, the weakest month for auto sales, every major manufacture sold more than 100K with some hitting nearly 200K.
The market has spoken, has been speaking clearly for the past decade, that diesel passenger cars are unwanted by US customers for the most part. TDI sales are irrelevant to the US market except to the people who actively seek them out and nearly everyone who actively seeks them out only cares about the scandal in so far as they can profit from it. This scandal hasn't changed anyone's perspective except for a small portion of diesel buyers who appear to be angry with VW--but they went and bought a diesel elsewhere rather than concluding diesel was no longer a viable fuel.
I see what you're saying, but another way of looking at it is that the numbers of diesel passenger vehicles was increasing quite a lot largely thanks to VW. Bigger numbers than they had ever sold in before, which a good marketer would dub a "growth market."

And not having the diesel option most definitely hurt VW as it was more than 25% of their sales. And, had they been able to come to market with reasonably priced AWD wagons, trucks and SUVs with diesels, I think there could have been an even bigger resurgence in store.

Seems to be VW's constant issue, they never quite get it right in the U.S. market, or the timing is completely wrong.

But yes, I do concede that in the larger scheme of things, diesel is small potatoes in the U.S.. Although that does seem to come in handy should an unfortunate natural disaster or other run on local gas stations occur. Much less competition for the oily stuff coming out of the pumps!

At the end of the day, we diesel heads do put up with more maintenance headaches to have a vehicle we enjoy driving that also happens to return amazing fuel economy. Most Americans don't give two craps about driving experience and just want functionality and something they can neglect the maintenance on a little and get away with it.

But, that's where I do get frustrated. There may indeed be a day where battery electrics make more sense for the daily grind than any other individual vehicle. Cheaper to operate, virtually no maintenance outside of basic brakes, suspension and tires, big, instant torque, far fewer moving parts. But, there's always a few of us fringe weirdos who like driving long distance. Something with comfortable seats and good chassis which you can also go 600+ miles between fill ups.

No, it may not be cheaper than electricity (for the moment), but you will get to your destination faster just based on not needing to stop as frequently.

Makes sense in an enthusiast's head, who of course thinks of these things much more than the average motorist. But that's just it, we have individual freedoms to create or purchase products as we see fit. And anytime I see moves made to restrict that freedom, I have to question the motives. Who are you (figuratively speaking, not singling anyone out) to say what products best suit my personal needs and wants?
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Old February 21st, 2018, 04:51   #107
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Originally Posted by Matt-98AHU View Post
<snip> But that's just it, we have individual freedoms to create or purchase products as we see fit. And anytime I see moves made to restrict that freedom, I have to question the motives. Who are you (figuratively speaking, not singling anyone out) to say what products best suit my personal needs and wants?
Yes, this is the "nut" of this whole issue, in the broadest possible sense. And our reason for rejecting EVs (as they exist now.....and maybe as they will exist during my lifetime) are basically the same as yours. We really enjoy our Passat TDI, which was purchased with the specific goal of lots of highway cruising, and for which it is admirably suited. There is only one trip we take (to VA) where we have to refuel en route, and the NMS sedan is very comfortable for extended drives (I'm 6'6").
However, there's always another side to any issue as complex as this. There is a whole array of products that we are banned from purchasing, ranging from a number of pharmaceuticals to military weapons. Most people would acknowledge that the motives in these cases are clear, and that the emissions issues behind Dieselgate are not. And yet, what VW did is clear, and is not contested (they admitted it). They cheated on the emissions standards in a very systematic and deliberate, almost stereotypically Teutonic manner.
Now, due to the above, small passenger diesel vehicles are on the path to extinction in this country— and perhaps elsewhere. And I cannot see anything in the Magic 8-Ball that might change that.
As for us, we have little choice now except to buy a gas car or a hybrid; I don't like the prospect of the fuel efficiency of the former, and I'm not convinced we'll be happy with the driving characteristics of the latter. We shall see.
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Old February 26th, 2018, 13:55   #108
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Engineering Explained does some really great YouTube vids. Mostly related to autos. This is his take on the VW monkey gassing:

https://youtu.be/glHNu91zUdA
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Old February 26th, 2018, 16:02   #109
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Originally Posted by turbobrick240 View Post
Engineering Explained does some really great YouTube vids. Mostly related to autos. This is his take on the VW monkey gassing:

https://youtu.be/glHNu91zUdA
I saw that today....intriguing he normally does not go into his personal feelings like he did.
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Old February 28th, 2018, 12:50   #110
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The documentary "Hard NOx" had mistakes with some of the dates and recreations. Generally the facts were accurate even if some salacious liberties were taken. But the design of the experiment had more problems:
  • 4 hours exposure - to find health hazards, the test subjects need a longer exposure and larger population. It really needs to be a significant fraction of the test subject's life, perhaps even generational, rather than what was effectively a brief, biological air filter.
  • white mice first - white mice would be an excellent choice. Relatively short life spans and affordable populations, the health hazards could be traced from conception to the grave.
Of course the 'defeat device' made the whole exercise useless as they did not get the on-the-road emissions.

It is the sort of program I would show my non-technical wife. In a little over an hour, she would get enough of the facts and data to understand without getting lost in the technical minutiae those in this discussion typically love. Of course she loves primates, often including her husband. She would be happier to see white mice test subjects since she considers mice to be dwarf rats which she hates.


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Old February 28th, 2018, 13:04   #111
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Originally Posted by bwilson4web View Post
The documentary "Hard NOx" had mistakes with some of the dates and recreations. Generally, the facts were accurate even if some salacious liberties were taken. But the design of the experiment had more problems:
  • 4 hours exposure - to find health hazards, the test subjects need a longer exposure and larger population. It really needs to be a significant fraction of the test subject's life, perhaps even generational, rather than what was effectively a brief, biological air filter.
  • white mice first - white mice would be an excellent choice. Relatively short life spans and affordable populations, the health hazards could be traced from conception to the grave.
Of course the 'defeat device' made the whole exercise useless as they did not get the on-the-road emissions.

It is the sort of program I would show my non-technical wife. In a little over an hour, she would get enough of the facts and data to understand without getting lost in the technical minutiae those in this discussion typically love. Of course she loves primates, including her husband. She would be happier to see as mice test subjects since she considers mice to be dwarf rats which she hates.

Bob Wilson
Well here is how I view the documentary. It explained all the devious methods that were used to sell "Clean Diesel" Whether it is completely accurate to the most minute point is irevelant. To try and prove to the EPA etc that their cars do not pose a health threat (by gassing monkeys) and if it didn't they still broke the current laws in place defining NOX output. The people in charge of that testing should have tested it on themselves if they were so confident that there was no harm. I'll bet nobody would have volunteered.
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Old May 6th, 2018, 13:47   #112
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Just finished watching this, and have a couple of thoughts. I'm an owner of a 2003 TDI that I've put ~340k miles on. I also love documentaries, and wanted to see exactly how VW pulled this off. In other words, I really wanted to see an unbiased view.
Within a couple of minutes, I'd heard the phrase "driving a death machine". At that point, the propaganda/BS detector went off.

-I laughed at the recurring image of the exhaust cloud that was being shown. I've rarely seen fumes like this, except briefly on cold mornings.

-I thought they tried to make a bit too much out of Stuart Johnson helping to acquire a dyno. I didn't see anything sinister with it.

-I found it interesting when they showed how BMW and Mercedes both performed poorly in "real world driving" vs. the lab. Not much was made of this, and I'm surprised more testing hasn't been done here in the states by an independent group.

-I've always found it interesting that VW was able to pull this off with the governmental agencies and their unlimited budgets and resources. Then were nailed simply because of someone(group) touting their virtues.

-I didn't need the political swipe at President Trump regarding the Paris Accord. This was almost laughable since the documentary had told me a few minutes earlier that Europe was a joke regarding emissions anyway(if it protected their own)

-Seeing the recalled VWs sitting outside of the old Pontiac Silverdome was sad. Perhaps because I'm old enough to remember the building and the demise of this huge facility. Seeing it without the dome was interesting, and sad. Seeing all of the recalled TDI's was sad as well.

-This had a chance to be a great documentary, but ended up being mostly a fluff piece. Other than the interviews with the VW execs and Mr. Carb, it was sub-par.

Last edited by spanky1; May 6th, 2018 at 13:52. Reason: corrections
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Old May 6th, 2018, 13:55   #113
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One question:
What was the large cylinder shaped structure that held so many cars?
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Old May 6th, 2018, 20:26   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spanky1 View Post
One question:What was the large cylinder shaped structure that held so many cars?
This place?
https://www.autostadt.de/en/explore-...adt/car-towers

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Old May 7th, 2018, 07:33   #115
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That's it. Thank you.
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