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Upgrades (non TDI Engine related) The place of handling, lighting and other upgrades that do not relate to the performance or economy of the TDI engine. In other words upgrades to your TDI that don't fit into TDI Fuel Economy & TDI Engine Enhancements.Please note the Performance Disclaimer

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Old December 22nd, 2017, 17:08   #1
Scott02
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: near Youngstown, OH
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Default mk7 GSW SEL handling spring rates XDS VAQ etc

I see a lot of people saying the mk7 torsion beam handles terribly, the car in general handles terribly, etc etc. And I tend to disagree. I think with my SEL 18's the stock suspension rides quite firm feeling, and corners well. You can REALLY lay it into tight on/off ramps and generally speaking, it stays quite composed. I think this is partly because of the wider low sidewall tires and I'm thinking because of the XDS system.

I wanted to start a thread to hopefully find other TDI GSW people who are really trying to find a well-handing torque-monster FWD wagon. I've read a bunch of vortex threads concerning module tweaking, but you never can tell what a person thinks is "better", as everything is relative to the driving situation. I find myself more of a higher speed road course type handling person, as opposed to a low speed handling autoX or "traffic darter" person.

Back when I was HPDE-ing my now sold 08 135i, there was a couple (one in particular) mk4 GTI's at the track days that were built up engine/suspension-wise and were really able to get in some good lap times, so let's not hate on that mk7 rear torsion suspension just yet.

I'm getting into VCDS tweaking the module settings for XDS now. Mine was set to Normal stock and I've recently changed it to Weak, which I think is better feeling to me, but I do not have a ton of seat time yet (winter here). Anyone else have experience with tinkering with this?

Spring rates: I did gobs of research into where I was planning on taking my mk6 JSW from the handling standpoint, but then dieselgate happened, and I never installed anything. I was planning on doing Golf R springs front and rear and keeping the stock tdi JSW sway bars, because I do not like the idea of the rear end of a FWD car wanting to pass up the front end on a high speed corner. But with the torsion beam rear, I cannot steal from the VW parts bin like I could for my mk6. Any one know stock TDI DSG spring rates? I think I see that there may be sport and rough road springs available from VW, but I'm not sure if this was for torsion beam cars or euro mk7 cars with independent rear.

Lastly, I've searched some, and can't seem to find much on if a GTI VAQ system can be retrofitted to other MQB models? That would really be the cat's meow to tame all the torque and not wear out brakes and/or overheat brakes on track days trying to tame the inside tire on corner exit.
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2015 GSW DSG - 27kmi, Kerma engine tune
2011 JSW DSG - 160kmi, Malone DSG tune - Buyback soon
03 Jetta Wagon TDI 5MT - 175kmi, 2.5"F 2"R lift, 215/75r15 tires, self tuned
02 allroad TDI 6MT - 150kmi, current project, getting a BSM deleted BHW and euro TDI geared 01E quattro

Last edited by Scott02; December 22nd, 2017 at 17:18.
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Old December 26th, 2017, 11:05   #2
adjat84th
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The non-TDI, multi-link rear suspension Golf shares the same part numbers for upper and lower spring cushions as the TDI's beam axle. I'm not educated enough on springs to know what the differences would be for the springs on a beam axle vs multi-link, but I'm guessing the spring rates or height might be the only difference here. I currently have Bilstein B8s on VWR springs and the suspension bottoms out too frequently to be good for daily driving. Handles great though, car is very firmly planted. Tempted to try the DriverGear springs and if they don't work/fit, just sell the set. The rears are too easy to check to not give it a go.

As for the GTI's VAQ differential, it's likely more expensive and complicated to get working on your car than adding an internal LSD would be. They make them for the DSG. I have a Peloquin LSD in my 02Q 6MT and it corners beautifully under load.
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Old December 30th, 2017, 08:26   #3
Scott02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adjat84th View Post
The non-TDI, multi-link rear suspension Golf shares the same part numbers for upper and lower spring cushions as the TDI's beam axle. I'm not educated enough on springs to know what the differences would be for the springs on a beam axle vs multi-link, but I'm guessing the spring rates or height might be the only difference here. I currently have Bilstein B8s on VWR springs and the suspension bottoms out too frequently to be good for daily driving. Handles great though, car is very firmly planted. Tempted to try the DriverGear springs and if they don't work/fit, just sell the set. The rears are too easy to check to not give it a go.
Since you seem to be good at looking this up... are the mk7 torsion beam rear upper and lower spring perches also the same as the mk6 JSW independent rear upper and lower spring perches?

Just for educational reasons for whomever may want to know, the spring rates would be identical between torsion and IRS "IF" the lever ratios of both type of suspension are the same. However, I'm guessing they are not.

Lever ratio is generically speaking where the spring rate is acting on the lever arm versus where the suspension pivot point is located. The longer the lever and the closer the spring is to the pivot point, the more spring rate is needed to get the same end rate at the wheel.

I'm guessing, as I did not measure each car yet, that the torsion beam rear has shorter lever arms than the IRS rear, which should then require the torsion beam rear to need higher spring rates than the IRS to get the same effect.

I had a really nice spreadsheet that compared all the spring rates I could find for my MK6 JSW, but I dropped my flash drive and it's now lost. That's how I ended up with two full sets of springs, both from the mk6 golf R and the mk6 GTI to play swaperoo with to make a great handling mk6 JSW, but like I said dieselgate screwed that for me. The spreadsheet also did comparisons of many different OEM+ and aftermarket rear bars as well, which is how I arrived upon wanting to keep the stockers, when swapping to the Golf R springs.
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2015 GSW DSG - 27kmi, Kerma engine tune
2011 JSW DSG - 160kmi, Malone DSG tune - Buyback soon
03 Jetta Wagon TDI 5MT - 175kmi, 2.5"F 2"R lift, 215/75r15 tires, self tuned
02 allroad TDI 6MT - 150kmi, current project, getting a BSM deleted BHW and euro TDI geared 01E quattro
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Old December 30th, 2017, 08:30   #4
Scott02
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I should also note, that I am not a fan of the look of lowered cars...
So that's the reason why I'm asking about if the mk6 to mk7 spring perches are the same.

I have mk6 lift spring perches from a tiggy that I was planning to use with the mk6 Golf R springs to get an overall stock height appearance but with having the increased springs rates of the Golf R springs.
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2015 GSW DSG - 27kmi, Kerma engine tune
2011 JSW DSG - 160kmi, Malone DSG tune - Buyback soon
03 Jetta Wagon TDI 5MT - 175kmi, 2.5"F 2"R lift, 215/75r15 tires, self tuned
02 allroad TDI 6MT - 150kmi, current project, getting a BSM deleted BHW and euro TDI geared 01E quattro
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Old December 30th, 2017, 08:37   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adjat84th View Post
As for the GTI's VAQ differential, it's likely more expensive and complicated to get working on your car than adding an internal LSD would be. They make them for the DSG. I have a Peloquin LSD in my 02Q 6MT and it corners beautifully under load.
Irrelevant of cost, I'd still LOVE to know if it can be done, which I'm guessing anything "can" be done with enough drive and dinero.

I mean this guy retrofitted damn near everything Golf R except for VAQ on his base golf...

http://jimmy-cbx.blogspot.sg/p/golf-...-possible.html
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2015 GSW DSG - 27kmi, Kerma engine tune
2011 JSW DSG - 160kmi, Malone DSG tune - Buyback soon
03 Jetta Wagon TDI 5MT - 175kmi, 2.5"F 2"R lift, 215/75r15 tires, self tuned
02 allroad TDI 6MT - 150kmi, current project, getting a BSM deleted BHW and euro TDI geared 01E quattro
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Old December 30th, 2017, 10:02   #6
adjat84th
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Oddly enough, the site I frequent for part numbers is linking to some Russian page for air ventilation all of a sudden. Still could search on ECS or similar to see if part numbers match for what you're looking for.

I agree about the lowered car look. I wanted the wheel gap to be lessened, not eliminated!
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Old January 1st, 2018, 07:54   #7
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As the only true Roadracing team hear running the Beetle TDI for over 4 years in wheel to wheel racing Chump/Lemon. We have tested every setup that has been posted and made up some of own.
We rework the VW roll center and bump steering
we run a coil over spring/adjuster system all four corners
a LSD
no sway bars
275/40/17 on 10 inch rims
This what most VW platforms look like in a hard turn 70 MPH 2 years back!

Now this is what our best setup looks like a 100+ in to turn 1

We keep all 4 tires on the ground 95% of the time and no body roll!
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Old January 2nd, 2018, 07:26   #8
Scott02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNGVW View Post
We rework the VW roll center and bump steering
we run a coil over spring/adjuster system all four corners
a LSD
no sway bars
275/40/17 on 10 inch rims
Now this is what our best setup looks like a 100+ in to turn 1...
We keep all 4 tires on the ground 95% of the time and no body roll!
You removed sways and dialed in your spring rates to counteract body roll such that your net result is great handling with good individual wheel bump compliance.
That was one of the issues with how my 135i was setup. The previous owner had pretty stiff sway bars F&R, which on corners with odd bumps, the stiff bars would cause a little more butt puckering than what I would have preferred. Allowing each wheel to do what it needs to more independent of the others really helps.
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2015 GSW DSG - 27kmi, Kerma engine tune
2011 JSW DSG - 160kmi, Malone DSG tune - Buyback soon
03 Jetta Wagon TDI 5MT - 175kmi, 2.5"F 2"R lift, 215/75r15 tires, self tuned
02 allroad TDI 6MT - 150kmi, current project, getting a BSM deleted BHW and euro TDI geared 01E quattro
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Old January 2nd, 2018, 08:12   #9
Scott02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNGVW View Post
As the only true Roadracing team hear running the Beetle TDI for over 4 years in wheel to wheel racing Chump/Lemon. We have tested every setup that has been posted and made up some of own.
Have you raced something that had VAQ, and if so, can you please share your experiences?

Similar question for XDS system and various settings?
... Though I've read that it's hard on your brakes on road courses.
__________________
2015 GSW DSG - 27kmi, Kerma engine tune
2011 JSW DSG - 160kmi, Malone DSG tune - Buyback soon
03 Jetta Wagon TDI 5MT - 175kmi, 2.5"F 2"R lift, 215/75r15 tires, self tuned
02 allroad TDI 6MT - 150kmi, current project, getting a BSM deleted BHW and euro TDI geared 01E quattro
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