Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations
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enki
Veteran Member
Question: I understand it's unlikely, but how does a buyback work exactly? Do they give you the original purchase price, MSRP, current black book value, etc.?
A full refund of purchase price, many years and miles later, seems like a great option for the consumer. But if they're just going to give you current FMV, I don't see how that is anything different than selling the car to the dealership in the first place.
A full refund of purchase price, many years and miles later, seems like a great option for the consumer. But if they're just going to give you current FMV, I don't see how that is anything different than selling the car to the dealership in the first place.
bhtooefr
TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
The thing is that NOx emissions are often a result of the engine working harder, so a larger displacement engine detuned should have lower NOx emissions than a small displacement engine at the same output. (There is, however, a 110 hp variant of the EA189 2.0.)
In any case, a buyback is typically at full retail market value (not trade-in) plus a percentage, IIRC.
In any case, a buyback is typically at full retail market value (not trade-in) plus a percentage, IIRC.
meerschm
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http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/f99017.pdf
for the history of NOX targets the tier 2 bin 5 standard (see chart in first post) is 0.04 g/km, which is 0.065 g/mile
for the history of NOX targets the tier 2 bin 5 standard (see chart in first post) is 0.04 g/km, which is 0.065 g/mile
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bhtooefr
TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
That doesn't tell the full story, though, as ALHes were, for instance, certified at 1.0 g/mi.
tsingtao
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I think this illustrates why a lot of posters (including myself) are down on VW.You have all these issues, and yet you were considering a 2016?
Despite all the issues these vehicles are known to have, I was considering trading my 2009 for a 2016.
This was sort of the last straw for me and I am sure many others. My plan for now is to keep my 2009 as long as I can and then go non-VW when I have to replace it.
Yes, I love the car, but I have no love for VW.
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
Buybacks aren't going to return full purchase price. Toyota has been buying back Tacoma trucks for the last couple of years because of frames rusting through prematurely. They base it on used-car price guides based on being generous for vehicle condition and mileage (e.g. assess it as "good" condition when it is really "rough"). And it is based on the price one would expect to buy that vehicle for at retail, not the low-ball price one would expect to get when trading it in.
A buyback isn't meant to be a lottery-win for the customer. It's to make the customer "whole". It's meant to be fair for both the customer and the business involved. It shouldn't be (appreciably) better than selling the car as a used car ... aside from sparing the customer the aggravation of dealing with Kijiji/Craigslist lowballers and for that matter, dealer used-car-department lowballers.
There is no way VW would ever retrofit SCR to the LNT-equipped cars. They'll buy the car back and sell you a new one, and then this happens to the one they bought back ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tShUtfIwFZo
Not trying to start anything because your opinion is yours to have but I'd say there is an Orange river in Colorado that is just one example of their lack of competence. Their are many that speculate that it was done on purpose to push the need for a higher budget. Conspiracy theory? Maybe. However all detectives start an investigation with a conspiracy theory.This investigation will never be done though. I do agree with your point about the clean air act within reason. It has had it's problems as well though. Vw hasn't been perfect, but finding a perfect corporation to buy a car from is impossible.
MrSprdSheet
Veteran Member
+1
And while the comparisons of pollutants, like NOx and CO2 are made, realize that the higher CO2 from marginally more fuel consumption doesn't materially change what is a high CO2 per mile figure. It is still going to be about half a pound per mile. The growing electric competition pushes closer to .3 lbs per mile (@3mp_kwh, on a 1,000lb/MWh US electric mix).
Point being, I don't buy the "less NOx, more CO2" excuse because:
-NOx is worse, not to say EPA isn't chasing diesel too hard
-Again, the CO2 difference, even at diesel ~40mpgs (the 2.0ltr) still leaves VW's cars materially higher CO2 producing, than the far simpler electrics.
I am trying not to go on, about EPA good/bad, because there were other diesels using "affordable", commercially viable, technology to pass. VW insisted on Rest Of World simplification, and will roast for it. We already know what they willingly overlooked with these cars ($4-5,000 service bills, every 100k miles, just to clear your dash). I am a 2009 owner, and share no sympathy for them.
jhinsc
Veteran Member
Buybacks could be based on purchase price, but they will deduct for mileage to arrive at something closer to a range between trade-in and retail value. You can bet a mileage deduction will already have a depreciation component added to it. After all, you did get use of the car during the time you had it. I think IF VW does offer any compensation, it will likely be a variety of a special allowance toward a new VW, or a small $ amount given to current owners - similar to what Ford/Hyundai/Kia did for their mileage misstatements. I also expect VW to offer free loaners while the 'fix' is applied. Outside of normal maintenance, I for one do not have the time to sit around and wait for a software re-flash, which could take up to an hour or more to actually apply, plus the wait time you have processing paperwork, and waiting in line while they do other vehicles in front of you. The last software update (23N05?) took 1/2 hour. My one and only local dealer only had one computer and work station capable to doing it.
jhinsc
Veteran Member
Here's a thought: Maybe VW should turn to Malone or other tuning company to figure out a software re-flash that will allow for full emission control and maintain or improve performance? Wouldn't that be a hoot? I wonder if a 'Malone' tune totally rewrites/overwrites the software or only changes certain parameters while leaving everything else intact?
Wouldn't that be a hoot? I wonder if a 'Malone' tune totally rewrites/overwrites the software or only changes certain parameters while leaving everything else intact?
TDIpilot4u
Veteran Member
Wow, that is mesmerizing to watch
Aquaticmind
Veteran Member
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You do realizes that the mine spill, which I agree is a big issues, is the result of private contractor working for the EPA and the toxic mine waste was left by a private mine company that walked away from the mine, leaving your tax dollars to clean up to mess they made.
I agree that the EPA isn't perfect and I do think they are underfunded for what they are tasked with, but calling it a conspiracy to get more funding seems way way way off the mark.
This case however seems to be pretty clearly VW getting caught red handed trying to get past emission testing.
mincanada
Veteran Member
I am wondering the same thing....I see the TDI isn't listed on VW Canada's website at this time. Our emission standards do differ from the US ones and do vary province to province....so far I haven't seen any Canadian reaction other than the VW Canada website not showing them. Frustrating just not knowing out impact.
on a side note , this may be swaying my GLI GTI or Golf R debate over the last few months...
meerschm
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http://www2.epa.gov/goldkingmine
worth a review
the spill was a screw up, but the cause of the mess was years of mining without consideration of the end result. there are quite a few similar disasters waiting to happen.
the folks at the EPA who work on air are different than the ones who work on water.
worth a review
the spill was a screw up, but the cause of the mess was years of mining without consideration of the end result. there are quite a few similar disasters waiting to happen.
the folks at the EPA who work on air are different than the ones who work on water.
panda
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Yeah, My question exactly. Asked a few screens back but the traffic in this thread is hard to keep up with. Hell I'd be happy with saving the current program for old times sakeHere's a thought: Maybe VW should turn to Malone or other tuning company to figure out a software re-flash that will allow for full emission control and maintain or improve performance?
texsize
Well-known member
MPG dorp
This is my experience and opinion
I have also noticed a drop in MPG since having Emission Service Action 23O6.
2012 golf tdi manual
First 30k before the ecu update my car averaged 36-37mpg from the mfi and 35-36 when hand calculated which was about 500 miles per tank a 14gal fill every time. These numbers were extremely consistent for the first 30k as my driving is very consistent to and from work and around town. Stopped hand calculating because it was always the same 500 miles 14gal in tank.
Following the 23O6 ECM Software recall I started to notice a discrepancy. While the mfi mpg calculations were exactly the same before 36-37mpg my miles per tank took a hit. I started only getting about 450 miles per tank so I started hand calculating again. My last 4 tanks have been a 14gal fill up but now are consistently only 450 miles per tank. Hand calculations reveal that ive only been getting 32mpg driving the exact same as before.
This leads me to believe that the update probably tried to lower NOx but with increase to fuel consumption. Probably vw trying to lower NOx output without dropping below the advertised mpg. Makes me think that in order to meet the NOx output regs mileage will have to drop below the epa estimated 30city 42highway rating of my 2012 golf tdi.
If anyone else has noticed similar behavior after the 23O6 ECM Software recall it would be great if you could post to see if my findings above are similar to yours.
My 2013 jetta lost about 2.5 MPG after the ECU "flash" I have a very regular commute of 440 miles after 4 days driving. I would full the tank and it would take 10.0 gal. no it's more like 10.5 gal. per fillup.
texsize
This is my experience and opinion
I have also noticed a drop in MPG since having Emission Service Action 23O6.
2012 golf tdi manual
First 30k before the ecu update my car averaged 36-37mpg from the mfi and 35-36 when hand calculated which was about 500 miles per tank a 14gal fill every time. These numbers were extremely consistent for the first 30k as my driving is very consistent to and from work and around town. Stopped hand calculating because it was always the same 500 miles 14gal in tank.
Following the 23O6 ECM Software recall I started to notice a discrepancy. While the mfi mpg calculations were exactly the same before 36-37mpg my miles per tank took a hit. I started only getting about 450 miles per tank so I started hand calculating again. My last 4 tanks have been a 14gal fill up but now are consistently only 450 miles per tank. Hand calculations reveal that ive only been getting 32mpg driving the exact same as before.
This leads me to believe that the update probably tried to lower NOx but with increase to fuel consumption. Probably vw trying to lower NOx output without dropping below the advertised mpg. Makes me think that in order to meet the NOx output regs mileage will have to drop below the epa estimated 30city 42highway rating of my 2012 golf tdi.
If anyone else has noticed similar behavior after the 23O6 ECM Software recall it would be great if you could post to see if my findings above are similar to yours.
My 2013 jetta lost about 2.5 MPG after the ECU "flash" I have a very regular commute of 440 miles after 4 days driving. I would full the tank and it would take 10.0 gal. no it's more like 10.5 gal. per fillup.
texsize
K_ersk
Member
I have a feeling if Malone made a tune with all the emissions stuff and normal power EGTs will reek havoc on the turbo and DPF
That river is in my virtual backyard; I drove by the orange river weekly. The San Juan mts are littered with abandoned mines that are toxic waste dumps. The mine owners made them and then left it to the EPA to deal with. It is well known to the locals that pay attention to these issues that the dumps are spills waiting to happen, and *will* happen at a non-zero rate despite the best of intentions and expertise.
Facts be damned though, the anti-EPA narrative drumbeat goes on.
VeeDubTDI
Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
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If you read the thread (or even just the information in the first post), you will realize that they HAVE tested more cars... Many more cars. In fact, lots of TDI owners got letters in the mail from the EPA asking to borrow their TDIs for testing. That all took place over the last year and many owners obliged and sent their cars in for testing.
BeetleGo
TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
JM, I agree with you. This is the start of a very interesting story. This site is going to be flooded with people trying to find out more about this. (Munch munch!). I will be very curious to see how this plays out. Meanwhile, I have a very young '05 Golf in very good condition, with only 106k on the odo. I was thinking of going Tesla next anyway in 5-10 years. Luckily, I have the car to wait this out!
This is how I feel right now:
VeeDubTDI
Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
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There is an announcement posted in all forums with a link to this thread. We aren't going to have a discussion thread in every single forum.
Also, all of the pertinent information is concisely summarized in the first post of this thread.
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Malone only changes certain parameters...Here's a thought: Maybe VW should turn to Malone or other tuning company to figure out a software re-flash that will allow for full emission control and maintain or improve performance?
He wouldnt touch the mystical switch.
What he does if asked to is make the car completely non emissions compliant by switching off egr...
listerone
Veteran Member
I'm from the government and I'm here to help"
JM Popaleetus
Veteran Member
Exactly. This whole thing may amount to nothing. But in the meantime, it's a huge headache for everyone involved...and a great drama for us to watch.
Not to mention, VW has admitted in some fashion to foul play.
But I'd like to imagine that this whole thing is an episode of Scooby Doo, and VW would have gotten away with it too! If it weren't for those meddlin' engineering students!
tsingtao
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Looks like VW again admitted that they did do this.
The feature, which the EPA called a "defeat device", masks the true emissions only during testing. When the cars are on the road they emit as much as 40 times the level of pollutants allowed under clean air rules meant to ensure public health is protected, Giles said.
"We have admitted to it to the regulator. It is true. We are actively cooperating with the regulator," a spokesman for Volkswagen said on Sunday.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/20/usa-volkswagen-ceo-idUSL5N11Q0DO20150920
The feature, which the EPA called a "defeat device", masks the true emissions only during testing. When the cars are on the road they emit as much as 40 times the level of pollutants allowed under clean air rules meant to ensure public health is protected, Giles said.
"We have admitted to it to the regulator. It is true. We are actively cooperating with the regulator," a spokesman for Volkswagen said on Sunday.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/20/usa-volkswagen-ceo-idUSL5N11Q0DO20150920
Excellent article, but I understood it somewhat differently: the rate of maximum ozone production is limited by the least plentiful stoichiometric reactant. Outside of the unusual environment of the tunnel, VOC is 90% natural and 10% industrial while NOx is 90% industrial.
So substantial reduction in industrial VOC can at best reduce low level ozone formation 10%, while the remaining 90% of pollution will depend on NOx reduction. And that is probably overly optimistic, since it presumes that all of the natural VOC is currently being consumed. More likely the story is that low level ozone from (VOC+NOx) is effectively entirely NOx driven.
The unusual 'weekend effect' in the tunnel is, I think, an artefact of having massive amounts of NOx during the week leading to a small competitive inhibition. There should be no joy in saying that the tunnel was at something less than Vmax during the week.
Put another way: the tunnel shows a chemical oddity. In the rest of the world it is all about NOx.
bubbagumpshrimp
Veteran Member
Haha. Nice.
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Mark SF
Veteran Member
I had exactly the same experience with my 2013 Passat (with SCR).
Before the update, I averaged 40mpg by the display, and 39mpg actual (calculated from full to full). Now the display reads about 39, but the actual is 36.
I wonder if they deliberately mis-calibrated the display to hide the fuel economy hit?
Real fuel economy dropped 9.2%, and according to the EPA, this update only improved NOX emissions slightly.
This is what I'm worried about. The Passat needs a reduction in NOX of a factor of about 5, according to the U.Virginia testing.
How much fuel economy reduction will that take?
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