Front main oil seal R&R

I've had a number of e-mail requests about information on replacing the front main oil seal on the A-3 / B-4 engine.
This procedure does not require the spceial VW seal removal/installation tools. The only "special" tool that I use is my own "Crank Lock" tool that sits within the TDC witness hole at the fly-wheel.

I'll start with the tech info...required materials and torque values:
Required materials:
1. Oil sealthe cam, intermeadiate seal and front crank seal all use the same seal P/N:068-103-085-E ).
2. VW sealent D-176-404-A2 Use only a thin narrow bead of sealent around the flange plate mating surface (do not use a bead of sealent no more than 3/16".
3. NEW Front crank sprocket bolt. P/N: N-905-771-01

Torque Values:
Oil Seal flange plate to engine block:
10 MM Bolts=89 In Lbs
13 MM Bolt= 216 In Lbs
Oil Pan to Eng Block
10 MM = 216 In Lbs
Crank shaft sprocket bolt:
66 Ft. Lbs + 1/4 Trn

The first steps require dropping the plastic oil pan guard (one bolt and a spring clip), and also the Pwr Steering pump belt tensioner bracket (two (2) bolts).

The first step is to secure the crank shaft with a crank lock...something such as my tool (or make your own).


With the crank-shaft secured (at the witness hole)remove the bolt from the front crank-shaft TB sprocket.


Now loosen all of the oil pan screws and remove the three (3) bolts at the oil seal flange plate.


The next step is to remove the front main oil seal flange plate. Note how the seal flange plate has three (3) lifting/pry pionts. Use caution and proceed slowly. As you pry the flange plate off of the two (2) dowl pins.


Here is the oil seal flange plate removed (Front face).


(Rear Face):


The next step is the actual seal replacement. Befor you remove the old seal from the flange plate make note of how the oil seal is seated at the rear face BEFOR you remove it. The seal sits flush & even with the rear edge of the flange plate. When you install the new seal make sure that it is seated "squarely" and evenly pressed into the flange plate. This is a "quality assurence step". Make sure that your new seal seated flush with the rear edge/lip of the flange plate...Like this>>>>>


OK...you now have the new oil seal installed and your are ready to to the installation. The next step is to apply a thin bead of the sealent to the rear face of the flange plate. Keep the sealent out of the screw holes. This is where "neatness counts". If you think you are using too much sealent...then you likely are!

Install the oil seal flange plate. As you fit the oil seal flange plate over the crank-shaft proceed carefully. You need to slip the seal lip over the crank shaft as evenly as possiable....this means watch your every move and seat the flange squarly onto the engine block over the dowl pins.


Your new front main oil seal is now installed.

Install the flange plate bolts and secure the oil pan bolts. Then the next step is to install the TB/Crank-shaft sproket bolt.
[NOTE]...Besure to apply a thin film of oil to the threads and shoulder of this bolt BEFOR you install it.

The VERY last step is to remove the crank lock took from the TDC witness-hole from the bell housing.

Is this how to pretty much the same thing for a Mk4 ?? or it is different?

The A-4 is simular but a different seal.

I do not trust the PTFE style seals. I have the "factory" seal removal and installation tools for the PTFE seal. I follow the installation procedure as given in the Bentley manual as-well-as VWoA's "ESIA" to the letter.
I see a higher premature seal leakage rate than the older style seal.

Herm TDI said:

The A-4 is simular but a different seal.

I do not trust the PTFE style seals. I have the "factory" seal removal and installation tools for the PTFE seal. I follow the installation procedure as given in the Bentley manual as-well-as VWoA's "ESIA" to the letter.
I see a higher premature seal leakage rate than the older style seal.

Click to expand...

Txs Herm

Herm.

I'm replacing my crank sprocket, and was going to replace this seal, as well.

I'm wondering if leaving the car in gear would be enough to keep the crank from turning.. I know I don't want to lock the cam, but if I get the car @TDC with the pump and cam locks, couldn't I "mark" TDC for the crank (my harmonic balancer is already off/part of the problem). Replace the gasket/seal, replace the sprocket and retime it, like any other timing belt replacement.

Your thoughts??

Also, does the crank sprocket require anything special to remove?? I mean like the crank pulley needs to be "eased off" with a hammer...

how do i make the fly wheel lock?

I hope you don't mind me adding to this great R&R but I am pretty much a novice at wrenching. I just pulled the front crankshaft seal on my 98 Jetta TDI by removing the carrier. I am concerned whether I should use the newer style seal (teflon) that Frank speaks of in this thread (#41) http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=66145&page=3 or would it be all right to use the old type with the spring? Is there a teflon type seal for the A3's/B4's. I haven't examined the crankshaft closely to see if the metal spring has cut a groove in the shaft. Also a little concerned about how deep to place the new seal in the carrier since this thread explains that you don't want to place it exactly where the old one was sitting. Old one was even with the engine side of carrier. I am posting a few pictures for anyone else who has limited experience.






Here is pic of the backside of timing belt cog on the crankshaft. It was a burger getting it off. Definetly using a new bolt to reattach, oil the threads and panhead, 66ft/lbs torque and then turn additional 90 degrees. Don't want that baby slipping.




Here is pic of carrier prior to removal. Note that the smooth side of the seal is pointing outward. Also the D shape mates with the D on the cog.



Another pic of carrier-note there are 20 bolts on the oil pan-two of them are well hidden by the trans housing. I am leaking oil someplace so am replacing all 3 seals on front of engine (crankshaft, camshaft and intermediate shaft seals), vlalve cover gasket with new grommets and the oil pan gasket. Don't think oil pan gasket has ever been changed nor the crankshaft.



Since I was changing the oil pan gasket I elected to wedge some wood between the counterweights on the crankshaft and the engine block. I had to look up what a counterweight was so for that crowd I am posting the following pic. If I had the time to wait acouple of days I would have requested Franks set-up in the above referenced thread. Also liked the idea of using the counterholder that comes with the timing belt tools -already had them but takes two people.



Tomorrow hopefully will start putting it all back together. Takes me a little while. Couldn't own this car without the info on this site. Much appreciated!!

Well for someone who claims to never have lifted a wrench it certainly looks like you have the job well under control. From what I gather, the teflon seal can be a bit of a trick to seal. If it were my car, I would opt for the older style. If the sealing surface on the crank is flat, then you are good to go. A deep groove would require a different seal position or a repair sleeve if they are available. Just get that seal in there squarely. I like to smear a thin coat of RTV on the seal outer surface before I drive it in.

I have not actually performed the crank seal service on these cars but I did re-seal the cam and intermediate shaft seals when I did the timing belt. I used the spring type seals and have no leaks.

Excellent photos by the way.

Thanks YBblocker-that's what I wamted to know.

PTFE / Teflon seals appear to be Directional

I'll cut the crap and get to the chase on this one.

Here's a missing piece to the whole PTFE seal mess. We're replacing a bi-directional seal with a uni-directional seal.

So when we replace the front main seal and cam seal on an AHU/1Z on the A3/B4 we want to use:
038 103 085 C

But when you want to change the intermediate shaft on these cars you need to use:
028 103 086 A

This has been puzzeling me for a while with everyone saying they cause problems and leak - yet sometimes they work great.

Here's a link with pictures (you might want to save this)

Hopefully this will clear up some of the confusion regarding these PTFE / Teflon seals

-J

good info-thanks

Re bi-directional vs. uni-directional seals, MK3 TDI intermediate shaft

Sleet, thanks for posting that. This is something I've not seen mentioned elsewhere. The intermediate shaft and cam and front crankshaft seals are sold as interchangeable and discussed as interchangeable on nearly every relevant thread I've read.

I'm doing this very soon on the Toyota's 1Z TDI and would love to see the link you posted (now gone). I'd really love to hear others verify what you're asserting or hear more about this from you.

Thanks ~

Herm, great thread! Thanks!

What tool did you use to remove and replace the actual seal?

cumminsfromthecold said:

Sleet, thanks for posting that. This is something I've not seen mentioned elsewhere. The intermediate shaft and cam and front crankshaft seals are sold as interchangeable and discussed as interchangeable on nearly every relevant thread I've read.

I'm doing this very soon on the Toyota's 1Z TDI and would love to see the link you posted (now gone). I'd really love to hear others verify what you're asserting or hear more about this from you.

Thanks ~

Click to expand...

Sorry didn't see your post until now.

The link was something I should have saved - I might have it on a old hard drive but I'm not sure.

I can verify it's the problem. because I put a PTFE seal (for the cam and front main seal) on my car and was so sticking ticked it was spewing oil out.

I thought I had put it on wrong and was able to put another seal in when I took a really close look at it and saw there was a directional arrow. If you look on the rubber seals they have bi-directional arrows (so they work in both directions) the PTFE seal is almost threaded so it only works in one direction. So I started digging and found a lot of little bits here and there until I found a part number for the other direction seal.

After I found the part number I found the vw part number and after than I ended up finding the pdf which would have saved me a ton of time to begin with.

So I found a part number for the correct seal and when I looked up the price it was about 8 x (yes 8 times) more expensive than the regular seal. I called up Aaron at Cascade and pretty much begged him to find me a better deal - and he did. He ordered a bunch of them and I think he still had some in stock - last I checked.

I've since put it on a a few other B4's and no issues. I even sent my engine to franko6 to get rebuilt and included the seals with specific instructions to put that specific seal on that intermediate shaft. He said they had their own seals but after I did all the digging I was pretty darn sure I had the right one (the other ones he might have probably work great) but I had so much time committed to the search I just HAD to use my own seal

I found the file again but rather then posting another link (which might go dead in another few years) or uploading it (I'm kind of hitting my cap) shoot me a pm with an email and I'll get it off to you.

Best of luck with the 1Z

-J

I'm going to bump this up with a quick question. Is there a paper seal behind the front main seal mounting flange? I am re-assembling my AHU that has been apart a year and cannot find that paper gasket or a replacement part for it anywhere. Perhaps its just a silicone sealant affair?

vtpsd said:

I'm going to bump this up with a quick question. Is there a paper seal behind the front main seal mounting flange? I am re-assembling my AHU that has been apart a year and cannot find that paper gasket or a replacement part for it anywhere. Perhaps its just a silicone sealant affair?

Click to expand...

On mine there was and I when I replaced the main seal a few days ago I replaced that gasket as well.

Steve

Ok, thank you. I thought it looked like there should be paper there. I will dig around on the internet and see if I can find the part.

ah! this looks like it

http://idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=3422

vtpsd said:

ah! this looks like it

http://idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=3422

Click to expand...

Yep, that's it. Actually that gasket is the same going way back to the early 80's 1.6D engines too (probably 1.5L too). I stole the one I used on my engine from an old 1.6D gasket set.

Steve

I'll Bump this thread. Anyone know where to get the correct seal for the intermediate shaft? Everyone seems to want to sell me the camshaft seal but they spin different ways.

SN

Bora Parts / Cascade Has them (and they're in stock) you might be able to call them up today and still get them shipped out today if they pick up the phone.

A lot of the seals today are bi-directional so it's not an issue, unless you get a uni-directional seal.

Abacus said:

A lot of the seals today are bi-directional so it's not an issue, unless you get a uni-directional seal.

Click to expand...

I didn't know you could get the PTFE (Teflon) seals for these cars as bi directional seals. Per the PDF I referenced above the original rubber seal was a bi directional seal but the teflon that work as a replacement are unidirectional - hence why they have 2 different part numbers for the PTFE replacement. One for Clockwise rotation and the other for Counter Clockwise rotation.

If there is a unidirectional PTFE seal that works for these cars I would be very interested in knowing more about it!

-J

VW stopped supplying the unidirectional seals a long time ago and superseded them with a bidirectional one. That's why everyone is listing that p/n.

Sent from my XT1097 using Tapatalk

Sleet
Why do you want a PTFE for the intermediate?

SN

Here are two link concerning the PTFE seals vs. rubber that has a spring. They are from the Victor Reinz site. Technical service bulletin 0017 discusses that the old style rubber and what supercedes them. Already mentioned in this thread. http://www.victorreinz.com/EN/Products/Oil-seals.aspx


The second link is installation procedure for the PTFE seals. Again already mentioned but four hour wait after install and goes on dry. Make sure lip does not roll. http://www.victorreinz.com/EN/Servi...on/PTFE-Oil-Seals-and-Their-Installation.aspx

Hopefully the links will stay good for a while.