EGR / DPF problems - looking for opinions

Apologies in advance for a rather long post.....

Up to this point, I've been very happy with my 2011 MK VI Golf TDI (6 speed). I purchased it new in June 2011.

I use this car as my daily driver, commuting about 8 miles one way to work each day....without about 6 of these one way miles on interstate highway (speeds 70-85). I do take occasional longer trips (1-1.5 hours one way) about once per month. I tend to keep RPMs on the high side.

About a year ago I had my first problem with the EGR / DPF. The check engine light came on during a longer drive (3 hour round trip drive in a single day). At the time I did not notice any performance changes, but took the car into the dealer the next day. The repair report from the dealer was as follows:

December 30, 2011 = 8,095 miles =
"Customer states check engine light on. Through GFF checked for faults and code P0401 present. Insufficient flow through particulate filter. Ran test plan in GFF and failed plan - low pressure system is outside range. Checked intake for leaks – none present. Contacted Tech Line and instructed to replace EGR and particulate filter with updated system. Removed and cleaned EGR valve. Replaced EGR filter and replaced diesel particulate filter. Road tested vehicle and reset basic settings. Cleared all faults-now OK. Total labor and parts = $2,170.16 (covered by warranty)."

I was happy with the car and performance following this work.

Flash forward to this week. On the way home from work on Monday night, as I accelerated onto the highway the engine starting to make a strange noise almost as if the heating fan in the car was suddenly turned on full blast. This noise only happened when giving the engine throttle..did not seem to be at a specific RPM. At the same time the heater was not working. A day later the check engine light came on. Although I could drive it safely, power was definitely reduced.

Took it into the dealer yesterday...here is the report =

December 6, 2012 = 19,503 miles =
"Customer says there is a noise when accelerating and limited power. Check engine light is on. Verified. P0240F EGR valve slow response test plan. Removed both intercooler hoses and checked for water/ice. No ice or water. Removed EGR and found carbon build-up. Removed and replaced faulty EGR. Upon road test tech noted diesel particulate filter pipe split/leaking. Replaced particulate pipe and hardware. Road tested. Repairs verified."

Dealers quote was "we've seen a lot of these".

I got the car back last night and took it for a half an hour drive up and down the interstate at varied speeds/RPMs. The noise is gone and the car seems to be running fine, but for some reason I feel like a little bit of the "oomph" has been taking out of it. Not dramatic, but just enough to be noticeable to me. Also - at first the heater was not working (nice when it is 28F outside)...until about 3/4 of the way through the drive when I flipped it back and worth between de-frost and the various heating settings. Seems to work fine now.

I'm going to drive it for a few days to see how it performs before doing anything else and taking back to the dealer.

2 QUESTIONS:

(1) With what seems like a related problem having happened twice, is it possible the dealer "de-tuned" it in some way to try and avoid it happening again?

(2) Not sure if these problems were caused by my driving style, short commute or just faulty parts. Regardless, is this something that is likely to keep occurring? Trying to evaluate whether to stick with it or sell and move to GTI.

Opinions welcome - thanks

I have the same year and model. I have often noticed subtle changes in the performance and it seems to be for a variety of reasons - dpf regen, change in temperature, filled up at a different station, etc..

One thing that could be happening -- if I understand right the dpf regen cycle actually increases the turbo boost a bit to compensate for the drop in performance. People on here have noted that the car seems to have more pep in certain situations with regen running... Maybe that accounts for the missing oomph?

More likely the engine software just needs a little while to adjust to the changes brought on by replacing bad parts.

At any rate you're on the right track suspending judgement till you have driven it for a bit.

Yes your ECM allows your turbo to boost a few lbs more when regen is occuring. I think of it as the difference between having your AC on vs off in the summer time. It's about the same performance difference.

OP, IMO your drives to work are entirely too short.... I really think you went for the wrong car... With the emissions what they are for these vehicles your car probably isn't reaching optimal temperature. Your probably building a lot of soot.
De-tuned? I doubt it. 8-10 minute commute to work, I'd be looking at a Vespa... Just sayin! I have a 24 mile commute to work one way and I think mine is on the short side. 10 miles to the highway and I know it's not warmed fully up yet... at variable speeds 30-55. When I hit the highway the heat gets noticeably hotter and then I know its optimal. Just my .02c. I'd take the longer way to work a few more times a week...

mrmmacd77 said:

OP, IMO your drives to work are entirely too short.... I really think you went for the wrong car... With the emissions what they are for these vehicles your car probably isn't reaching optimal temperature. Your probably building a lot of soot.

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Yes - fair point....which is why I'm asking the question. Perhaps this problem will just keep recurring unless I start working in much more frequent, longer drives.

mrmmacd77 said:

OP, IMO your drives to work are entirely too short.... I really think you went for the wrong car... With the emissions what they are for these vehicles your car probably isn't reaching optimal temperature. Your probably building a lot of soot.

Click to expand...

I still don't see that as a valid excuse for the issues he's having. I have a 7 mile commute to work without highway and usually take one or more long highway drives on the weekend, very similar to the OP. I haven't had any issues with the car.

From the original post it sounds like the original fix for the DPF was botched. As for the original problem, from what I've read on these forums most of the DPF problems people have are not corrected after DPF replacement which leads me to believe that there is some other problem that is causing the issues with the DPF.

I did ask the dealer about whether this 2nd problem was a repeat of the 1st. He kind of hemmed and hawed and in the end said that it wasn't the same parts, not quite the same problem.......not sure I believe this.

I doubt the DPF is so fragile. Most drivers in Europe do short tripping. Cities are crowded with traffic jams too. So this was considered when designing the system. It's just only North America where you can take a long highway trip through a desert. Here in Europe there aren't such conditions.

I also wonder about the effects of short trips. If 8 mile trips are too short, then I probably have also purchased the wrong vehicle along with many other folks. I'm retired so I don't commute and most of our normal driving is combining multiple short trips with about an hour stop at each destination.

I go out of my way to take a long extended drive every week where I can open up the throttle. I do this because of recommendations from this forum and owning a TDI has become somewhat of an advantage for us because of this since it gets me out of the house to do something fun. Our main reason for purchasing the TDI was for vacation traveling to "see the USA" before we are too old.

Different MY but seems to hit it on the head for you. Even the cracked DPF issue is in there... I actually can't see the multimedia part but the description was spot on to your first issue.


I expected shorter trips effects to show later down the road for example 80k~100k. But you're already getting EGR buildup at less than 20k..


http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=361656

Thanks for all the comments...helpful food for thought. I posted this same question over on vwvortex...one of the most helpful comments was a reminder that these components are apparently covered for 80k miles under warranty.

I thought the new low sulphur fuel was suppose to stop all of the EGR/intake clogging problems?

I think it sounds like some assembly/component function quirk. Like a slight off-angle of a bracket/mpounting causing vibration could crack the dpf, and/or incomplete egr circuit signal....

mcracer516 said:

I thought the new low sulphur fuel was suppose to stop all of the EGR/intake clogging problems?

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I think it's still a diesel and it still produces soot. You can have zero sulphur fuel but soot will still form.

Looks like N.A. CJAA engine has got some kind of EGR filter (which filters out soot?). Not sure why other engines don't have this filter but only CJAA.

Another question would be how aggressive the EGR is on the CR-TDI. Less aggressive EGR (mild) would mean less intake clogging.

Henrick said:

I think it's still a diesel and it still produces soot. You can have zero sulphur fuel but soot will still form.

Looks like N.A. CJAA engine has got some kind of EGR filter (which filters out soot?). Not sure why other engines don't have this filter but only CJAA.

Another question would be how aggressive the EGR is on the CR-TDI. Less aggressive EGR (mild) would mean less intake clogging.

Click to expand...

I'll admit I was just basing that off of posts I have seen here by others that seem fairly knowledgeable on TDI's. I think I need to stay off the forums the more I read here the more I feel like I made a huge mistake by buying another TDI. I get the feeling that VW either just doesn't care, or don't know how to fix the same issues that have been going on for years with their engines.

Just a thought..

Has the OP done any oil changes? If so, specificially what oil was used?

The reason is the new 507 spec oil is the only oil to use in these cars, and the problem with not using that oil will be egr/dpf issues not engine issues.

Check any/all receipts for previous oil changes, and post up which specific oil was used.

Jon

Yes, 2 oil changes.

The first was done during the first EGR/DPF visit in Dec. 2011. Mileage was 8,095. Oil used was G-052-195-1L. I believe this is 507 spec oil.

The second was done Oct. 2012 at 18,111 miles. Same oil was used.

Wrong oil couldn't have caused the failures. It's a matter of hundreds of thousands kms but not tens of thousands km when we might see emissions system failures due to wrong oil.

I think, too, that your commute is too short if you don't mix it with longer trips. I have a 5 mile one way commute and avoid using my '12 Golf for that duty. I use my '02 or M-B instead. As an aside, if my '02 was stock it would probably generate EGR issues with that use, too.

cd_booth says his car has similar use, but I think there may be enough differences to avoid the issue. First, folks in Michigan drive a lot faster than folks in Boston. Second, he says he gets the car out for longer trips once a week: you say once a month.

My suggestion is to have the car chip tuned. Good news is you're near IDParts, and we're going to have Jeff Robertson from RC up here soon for a tuning day. He can turn down the EGR duty cycles (low pressure, especially) which may help eliminate the problem.

Same year and approximate mileage here too. Similar to/from daily activity. Fortunately no such issues yet. I don't feel I drive fast at all. How fast so people in Boston drive? First OCI was done at 9500 miles by owner using total quartz ineo 505/507. Is there anything I could check with vcds and be in the lookout for before I get a cel? Thanks

and interesting note from a vw uk forum, VW UK does not recommend the use of dpf equipped vehicles for short trips including the Channel Islands

Common causes for complaint

• Frequent short journeys – Regeneration conditions are not met.
Not recommended for sale in the Channel Islands and inner city driving.

http://uk-mkivs.net/forums/t/343695.aspx


so I guess they are having dpf problems over there too

All interesting tips and facts. I've lived in Michigan and greater Boston...hard to say who drives faster. I will say that the average level of driving aggressiveness here in Boston is a tad higher than Michigan...;-)

Yes, I only get longer trips in (1 hour+) every few weeks. Probably more frequent during the summer.....perhaps why this has now happened twice during the early winter?

I also owned a turbodiesel when I lived in the UK 2009-2011. This was a Ford S-Max (similar vehicle to the new Ford C-Max being sold here). I honestly don't know if that engine had a similar design with DPF. We lived in an urban area in northwest London and the car was used almost exclusively for short 3-4 mile trips within the city...never had any problems.

As for the chip tuning....not so enthusiastic about potential warranty issues given how expensive these EGR/DPF repairs seem to be.

All this still makes me wonder more and more if I should consider trading it in for a gasser given that the profile of the driving I do with this car isn't likely to change in the near future...particularly when book value on the car is still in the $20k range.

I think it's safe to say that the UK and US emissions systems are pretty different. So is fuel quality, which is often part of the issue we have with EGR/emissions in the US.

I agree that Boston drivers are more aggressive, but people have the room to go faster on the highways there, it seems. I don't spend much time around here going 80+, do in MI. Well, except on the Mass Pike between Sturbridge and 128. That's a pretty fast stretch. And on 95 from Providence to 128. Hmmm, maybe not that much different.

I understand your reluctance regarding a tune. And you're probably right: a GTI or (gasp!) Jetta Hybrid might be a better fit. At this point if you want the GTI or a regular gasser Golf I'd wait for the 2014 MKVII.

We drive our JSW 2009 TDI mostly on short trips of 10 miles,but take the car on a 1000 mile drive every yr. No problems yet with 20k miles. Every once in a while I have an interrupted regen cycle.

Dealers give no advice about the process so the average buyer has no idea whats going on and how to deal with the regen. I called the dealer when it first happened and they just said it was normal--DUH.

bluesmoker said:

and interesting note from a vw uk forum, VW UK does not recommend the use of dpf equipped vehicles for short trips including the Channel Islands

Common causes for complaint

• Frequent short journeys – Regeneration conditions are not met.
Not recommended for sale in the Channel Islands and inner city driving.

http://uk-mkivs.net/forums/t/343695.aspx


so I guess they are having dpf problems over there too

Click to expand...

Hi bluesmoker,

Thank you for posting this article apparently written by an authoritative source at VW:
http://uk-mkivs.net/forums/t/343695.aspx

This concisely and explicitly provides the information required to understand the intricacies of the DPF regeneration process and issues that can occur.

It also clarifies information I have previously read like "a DPF regeneration would complete successfully if the engine is allowed to idle" (assuming when you arrive at your destination that you notice a regeneration is occurring due to elevated RPMs at idle with fans running and allow the engine to continue idling in hopes of completing the regeneration). The information in this article states that idling an engine is one of the conditions that can interrupt a regeneration.

Yes - thanks for posting that article...really helpful.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

I think it's safe to say that the UK and US emissions systems are pretty different. So is fuel quality, which is often part of the issue we have with EGR/emissions in the US.

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My US spec TDI has only seen German autobahn's and German Diesel. From what I can tell the EGR in the euro and US spec engine are the same. I still ended up replacing the EGR @ 25K Miles. That said I don't think the standards have much to do with emission control systems.

Are you 100% sure the EGR in the Euro and US spec engines is the same?

German autobahns and German diesel might have nothing to do with this. You might have had just a faulty EGR from the factory...

Henrick said:

Are you 100% sure the EGR in the Euro and US spec engines is the same?

German autobahns and German diesel might have nothing to do with this. You might have had just a faulty EGR from the factory...

Click to expand...

I'm not sure that they are not different, but the German Stealer didn't seem to have an issue with finding the parts. I have the list of what they replaced here, and I would be happy to be corrected on this if I am wrong.

You're right, I've just checked and the Euro and US spec engines indeed have identical EGR valves.

But US engine seem to have EGR filter, p/n 1K0 253 120, as you listed in that another thread. This seem to be US-only thing.

From everything I can read, the emission tech was okay'd by the EPA, where the US TDI got downgraded on it's design. I got a lot of info from Toeball here on my other thread on this. plz add your 2 cents, I would like to know everything there is to know between the mechanic's of the US and Euro 2.0TDI.