NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

darrelld

darrelld

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quadrun1 said:
How many people wait for the glow plug light to turn off before cranking the engine?

I wonder because when I was reading about the BMW (gas) HPFP problem someone wrote that they couldn't reliably start their car unless they waited for the pumps to pressurize before cranking.

I'm wondering if not waiting for the feeder pump to pressurize would cause starvation at the HPFP in the CR. I don't know if this is how our fuel system operates, but when I'm waiting those 2-3 secs for the glow plugs I definitely can hear something whirring and coming up to speed.

Also I find interesting in the Dec 2012 Car and Driver review for the Cayenne Diesel, it says there is no start-stop function because "It's a matter of lubricating the high pressure fuel pumps... they're delicate"
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Kessy will not attempt to start until the glow plugs are done. In cooler weather my Passat can take up to 10 seconds. There are also other system checks that happen in the background.
 
flyboy320

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quadrun1 said:
I'm wondering if not waiting for the feeder pump to pressurize would cause starvation at the HPFP in the CR. I don't know if this is how our fuel system operates, but when I'm waiting those 2-3 secs for the glow plugs I definitely can hear something whirring and coming up to speed.
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I don't believe the MY 09 and up activate either the electric lift pump or the aux pump until you crank the engine, that's why you need VCDS when changing the fuel filter to prime the fuel lines.
 
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storx

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Local vw guru said that his dealership has done 6 hpfp that he can recall at his dealership alone... So the 0.1% is way off...
 
Plus 3 Golfer

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storx said:
Local vw guru said that his dealership has done 6 hpfp that he can recall at his dealership alone... So the 0.1% is way off...
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Now multiply that by about 600 dealerships and the failures pile up. IIRC, one member was told his dealership had done near 20. And another member was told his dealership had done zero, yet the NHTSA data showed they had done at least one.
 
L

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What matters is not only the number of failures, but also how VW has responded to the failures.

They didn't start out very well.
 
Q

quadrun1

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flyboy320 said:
I don't believe the MY 09 and up activate either the electric lift pump or the aux pump until you crank the engine, that's why you need VCDS when changing the fuel filter to prime the fuel lines.
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Yep, I've definitely read that here before. I wonder if that's part of the problem.

It is curious that the new Cayenne Diesel doesn't have automatic start-stop for the engine because the HPFP is deemed too fragile. Not good. I believe this is basically the same engine as in the Touareg TDI and the Q7 TDI.
 
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storx said:
Local vw guru said that his dealership has done 6 hpfp that he can recall at his dealership alone... So the 0.1% is way off...
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That number is also dependent on where he is located. Is he in California or New York where there are a bunch of new tdis or is he in South Carolina or New Mexico where there are not as many people and also not as many new tdis? To look at one dealership doing six repairs without knowing how many cars that dealership has sold and continues to service is almost as meaningless as everyone has told me that my comparison in post 4417 was.
 
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extented warranty coverage

I have a 2009 Jetta TDI, 72,000 miles, Zurich extented warranty to 100,000 miles. No problems, yet.

If fuel pump failure, will VW say Zurich should fix and then Zurich say VW should fix? Anyone had experience with extented warranties fixing HPFP failures?
 
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Plus 3 Golfer said:
I really don't know what your point is with the $16 million but my point with the $16 million is that it is a small number compared with the worst case outcome.

VW will likely fight NHTSA to the end or until they can find a cheap way to get NHTSA off their back with respect to the safety defect. I believe VW is covering them under warranty (even with contaminated fuel) and many under goodwill after warranty so that the issue stays generally hidden from the public. What's keeping this "under wraps" worth to VW? Likely a lot more than the effect of $16 million to VW's bottom line. Also, the ones under warranty (not contmainated fuel) need to be removed from the $16 million.

Costs are before taxes so, the effect to the bottom line is less than $16 million. VAG net income for 2011 was $4.43 billion (US$). It appears taxes on income are north of 30%. So, $16 million after tax would be about $11 million or a reduction of 11/4430 = 0.25% of 2011 net income. This will not affect VWs financial health. It is a drop in the bucket to VAG. But not to the employees whose heads roll.:D
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I had a '85 Toyota Camry with a brake problem. The rotors kept warping. Besides the terrible screeching, the front end shook when you had to apply the brakes suddenly. The dealer said Toyota would replace the rotors free of charge. They did this 5 times in the 90K miles I drove the car. Never saw anything in the press about it. I guess it was one of those "secret warranties".
 
Claudio

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there are a bounch of new documents dated 11/30/12 on the NHTSA website
 
Claudio

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Source: http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM430237/INRL-EA11003-54326P.pdf

this part of VW answer about fuel samples is interesting

827 diesel fuel samples have been acquired throughout the continental U.S.
In respect to viscosity, 203 samples were out of ASTM specification (below 1.9 cSt), 186
of those were below the HPFP’s nominal threshold of 1.5 cSt. Here the HPFP may not
have been properly lubricated.
59 samples were detected with lower lubricity (greater HFRR/WSD value) than required.
22 of them exceeded the HPFP’s nominal tolerance of 570μm and may have caused
increased wear.
4 samples were found to contain increased amounts of water more than 1.5 % / 1.8% /
2.5 % and one sample exceeding 10% of water, which was not detected in the fuel
station and random vehicle surveys. Viscosity and lubricity are within specification, but
water could cause rust and corrosion in the HPFP and damage the pump.
79 samples contained more than 5% biodiesel, 20 of those exceeded 10%. Biodiesel
itself does not damage the HPFP, however, collapsed/deteriorated/aged biodiesel can
cause deposits inside the HPFP and clog filters, interrupting the lubrication and leading
to failure.
252 samples showed a flashpoint below ASTM specification, but this has no direct
impact to the HPFP’s durability and may just be seen as an indicator for possible
gasoline content.
 
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Claudio

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final part of the document

In light of the foregoing, Volkswagen submits that there is no defect related to motor vehicle safety with the subject HPFP.
 
WutGas?

WutGas?

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a) In response to this inquiry, Volkswagen has identified 579 consumer complaints
involving 532 unique VINs, which relate to, or may relate to, instances of the alleged
defect in the subject vehicles. Volkswagen notes that this number is inclusive of
consumer complaints that exhibit a misfuel or fuel quality concern.
b) In response to this inquiry, Volkswagen has identified 5891 field reports involving
5208 unique VINs, involving a diesel HPFP related to the alleged defect in the subject
vehicles. Volkswagen notes that this number is inclusive of field reports that exhibit a
misfuel or fuel quality concern. Please note that the volume of field reports is a result
of Volkswagen’s policy for dealers to call prior to repairs to release an HPFP.
c) In response to this inquiry, Volkswagen has not received any reports involving a
crash, injury, or fatality, based on claims against the manufacturer involving a death
or injury, notices received by the manufacturer alleging or proving that a death or
injury was caused by a possible defect in a subject vehicle, property damage claims,
consumer complaints, or field reports related to the alleged defect in the subject
vehicles.
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hmmmm
 
WutGas?

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I found this part interesting.

Volkswagen notes that the fuel analysis obtained from this study was directly caused by
this inquiry. Beginning with the NHTSA meeting in May 2011, in which initial fuel analysis
results were presented, Volkswagen has provided updated fuel analysis results in each
of its subsequent responses, dated December 16, 2011 and March 30, 2012.
827 diesel fuel samples have been acquired throughout the continental U.S.
In respect to viscosity, 203 samples were out of ASTM specification (below 1.9 cSt), 186
of those were below the HPFP’s nominal threshold of 1.5 cSt. Here the HPFP may not
have been properly lubricated.
59 samples were detected with lower lubricity (greater HFRR/WSD value) than required.
22 of them exceeded the HPFP’s nominal tolerance of 570µm and may have caused
increased wear.
4 samples were found to contain increased amounts of water more than 1.5 % / 1.8% /
2.5 % and one sample exceeding 10% of water, which was not detected in the fuel
station and random vehicle surveys. Viscosity and lubricity are within specification, but
water could cause rust and corrosion in the HPFP and damage the pump.
79 samples contained more than 5% biodiesel, 20 of those exceeded 10%. Biodiesel
itself does not damage the HPFP, however, collapsed/deteriorated/aged biodiesel can
cause deposits inside the HPFP and clog filters, interrupting the lubrication and leading
to failure.
252 samples showed a flashpoint below ASTM specification, but this has no direct
impact to the HPFP’s durability and may just be seen as an indicator for possible
gasoline content.
Click to expand...
 
Blue_Hen_TDI

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Claudio

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Claudio

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it is interesting to see Ford email, they seems to be more concerned about water in the fuel and fuel quality in general, that would cause parts to rust
 
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WutGas?

WutGas?

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9 in Oklahoma - Funny, last time I was in Cable Volkswagen I was told they haven't seen one. According to the spreadsheet they have seen 4. 2 of those could have been before I asked though cause I don't remember the dates.
 
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