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VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) This is a general discussion about A4/MkIV Jetta (99.5-~2005), Golf(99.5-2006), and New Beetle(98-2006). Both VE and PD engines are covered here.

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Old September 15th, 2012, 16:21   #1
bagger
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: CA, USA
Fuel Economy: 44.8,34,31
Default 2002 Jetta Hard Start

Hello,
I have a 2002 Jetta with just 60000 on new motor.(engine replaced with new LB after original blown engine at 120000mi.) Some original parts were used when installing new motor. Car has been running and starting great for about 4 years. My hard start condition literally happened over night. It acts as if the IP is losing its prime. I have read many post and tried some of the easier ideas. The following is a list of things I've tried.

Everything seems normal when trying to start the engine.
GP light on for approx. 1-2 secs.
Engine cranks as it always did. Speed wise.

1. CTS unplugged to allow GP light to stay on longer-no help
2. Anti-S/V working as expected. Not sticking.
3. Checked timing with VAG-Com. Just below center line. Always been there
4. Battery terminals OK. No corrosion.
5. Compression OK. 500 in all cylinders.

Again this happened literally overnight.
The reason I believe this fuel related is this happened after filling the tank. How can I check the fuel pressure and see if it losing pressure? When the engine finally starts I get some white smoke, and car runs fine with no loss of power that I notice. This happens any time car sits more than about 15 minutes, cold or hot. Starts OK if I restart seconds after shut down.

Where should I be looking next? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Dave
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Old September 15th, 2012, 16:44   #2
Seatman
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It could well be fuel related

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=205619

Could also be a bad batch of fuel
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Old September 16th, 2012, 03:53   #3
eb2143
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I agree this is mostly likely a fuel issue. I would eliminate the fuel filter as a troubleshooting measure as prime issues are often related to the thermostatic T or the drain valve at the bottom of the filter. Also check all the return lines from the injectors and make sure nothing is leaking and that you don't smell diesel fuel in the engine compartment. Injector pump seals are another potential cause as I recall.

To test whether the issue is the filter (or a connection further back), get a can of diesel purge or collect filtered fuel using vacuum in some sturdy metal or glass container. Pinch off the inlet fuel line using hose pinchers, disconnect inlet and return lines from filter, then run them into your container with clean fuel, start car (will start hard). Turn off. If your engine ALWAYS starts hard, no matter if you just turned if off, then start it right away and see if eliminating the fuel filter and tank pickup help. If this problem requires the car to be shut off from awhile, then wait before restarting.

Since you just filled up, bad fuel is certainly a concern and you could alternatively preventively replace the filter and check the fuel sender pickup under the rear seats before troubleshooting further.
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Bosio Sprint 520s, Koni FSDs, VW HD Springs, 10mm spacer, Audi TT LCA bushings, 034 motorsports strut mounts, E-code lights, Audi TT "short"-shifter, IDparts rear sway bar, DG Panzer plate, Caterpillar 2m fuel filter, Frostheater, GLI Recaros, GTI 3-spoke steering wheel, Audi S3 shifter, R-line stainless pedals

Last edited by eb2143; September 16th, 2012 at 03:56.
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Old September 16th, 2012, 07:44   #4
bagger
 
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Fuel Economy: 44.8,34,31
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I have a little more info today.
The pump is losing its prime I think. This morning I cracked the fuel lines to the injectors and nothing leaked out. I would assume there would be a small amount of fuel when cracked. So I tried to start it and still nothing with the line cracked. A few more cycles of the engine and I finally see fuel. So I lock them down and it started. Does it sound like I'm going in the right direction or out in left field?

Now for the fix. If I were to block the fuel filter inlet and outlet hoses and put a vacuum on one hose that would eliminate the filter, if it held vacuum. How can I check the fuel pick up in the tank? Is it a pump or just a pickup?

BTW I did look at the IP and don't see any sign of leaking. No fuel odors were detected this am.
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Old September 16th, 2012, 08:17   #5
eb2143
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You're definitely going the right direction. Air is getting in somewhere.

Do you have a clear inlet fuel line or the blacked out ones? If the former, are you getting a stream of bubbles or steady fuel when it's running?

I'm not sure I follow your proposed vacuum test; which line will you be testing for vacuum? One of the return lines?

The pick up is not a pump it's just a fuel sender. Accessed below the passenger's side rear seat. You should be able to search for how to open it and inspect. I'd focus on the filter and pump before that however.

Does the car need to sit or does it always start hard?
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2001 Jetta TDI 5mt, 255,000 miles (bought new 02/2001)
Bosio Sprint 520s, Koni FSDs, VW HD Springs, 10mm spacer, Audi TT LCA bushings, 034 motorsports strut mounts, E-code lights, Audi TT "short"-shifter, IDparts rear sway bar, DG Panzer plate, Caterpillar 2m fuel filter, Frostheater, GLI Recaros, GTI 3-spoke steering wheel, Audi S3 shifter, R-line stainless pedals

Last edited by eb2143; September 16th, 2012 at 08:21.
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Old September 16th, 2012, 08:37   #6
bagger
 
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eb2143 thanks for the reply. If I wait about 10 min., it takes about 5 secs of cranking to start. If I immediately crank it after shut down it starts right up. I have a blacked out fuel line.

Here is my thought process on the vacuum test. If all sources are blocked and no air can get it to the filter and I pull 3lbs of vacuum the it will just build pressure. However if there is a leak in the filter then fuel will be sucked out as air intrudes the system. Here's what I am trying. I ran the engine and immediately after shut down I blocked all the lines to the IP and tank. I'm waiting the 10 or 15 min. and I will unblock the lines and try to start. If it starts I can rule out the pump as everything behind the pump was blocked. If it doesn't start the the pump is leaking down. Maybe I'm wrong.
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Old September 16th, 2012, 11:12   #7
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Ok so I think its the pump. Do they go bad in ways other than leaking? The pump has 186000 miles on it. Probably time to change it anyway. Also I converted this car from auto trans to manual, so it has the 11mm IP. Do I have to replace it with the same version or can I use the 10mm version IP? If I can change to the 10mm IP, do I have to get the injectors for the 10mm IP?
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Old September 16th, 2012, 11:45   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bagger View Post
Ok so I think its the pump. Do they go bad in ways other than leaking? The pump has 186000 miles on it. Probably time to change it anyway. Also I converted this car from auto trans to manual, so it has the 11mm IP. Do I have to replace it with the same version or can I use the 10mm version IP? If I can change to the 10mm IP, do I have to get the injectors for the 10mm IP?
You're still a long way from replacing a pump. 186k is young if it's gotten good clean fuel.

You need to try to locate the leak, but my understanding is that the pump seals can leak air and so little fuel they're very hard to notice (not enough to smell diesel). I'd go around with pump inch by inch with a flashlight. Most of these seals are replaceable:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread...ighlight=video

The thermostatic T is also notorious, but I'm leaning towards the pump seals myself. Although the seals are cheap, the replacement isn't a piece of cake. If I were you, given how much a fuel filter/thermostatic-T/o-rings cost and how easy they are to replace, I'd be inclined to just replace them first if I was unable to pin-point the leak.

A few threads that might give you some ideas of how to proceed:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=359642
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=2733762
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=333861
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=45870
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2001 Jetta TDI 5mt, 255,000 miles (bought new 02/2001)
Bosio Sprint 520s, Koni FSDs, VW HD Springs, 10mm spacer, Audi TT LCA bushings, 034 motorsports strut mounts, E-code lights, Audi TT "short"-shifter, IDparts rear sway bar, DG Panzer plate, Caterpillar 2m fuel filter, Frostheater, GLI Recaros, GTI 3-spoke steering wheel, Audi S3 shifter, R-line stainless pedals
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Old September 16th, 2012, 12:08   #9
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Check for fuel droplets on the engine block below the injection pump.
You may have a seal that is brittle permitting the loss of fuel system prime.
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Old September 16th, 2012, 15:57   #10
bagger
 
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Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm going to get the pars and do the seal replacement. Where is the best place to get all parts (filters, thermostatic valve etc.) not just the seals. I ordered the seal kit from DG today.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 18:27   #11
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Well, I replaced the fuel filter tee today. Got the beast started finally. Waited five minutes after a short drive, and no start again. I also got the seal kit yesterday from DG. Going to tackle that on the WE.
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Old September 22nd, 2012, 21:02   #12
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Ok, here's an update. Did the seal change today. I ordered the viton seals along with the kit. It's a good thing there are two seals in the kit, because I destroyed one. So I got it to start and I am back to the original symptom which is a hard starting jetta. Other than the seals and tee in the fuel filter where else should I be looking? I don't have much hair left to pull out, so any suggestions, help, etc. would be appreciated.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 17:30   #13
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Problem solved. When God was passing out brains I thought he said trains and I missed mine!! The fuel filter was leaking. I plain forgot about the drain plug on the bottom. I actually didn't find and I hate to admit my wife found the problem. I do believe women are better observers. She made me explain to her how the system worked and as she was looking at the fuel filter she asked for a flash light. I thought to myself, right what do you see? Sure enough she spotted the wetness under the filter and was I embarrassed. The leak was just enough to drip down the inside fender wall and roll to the frame and was soaked up by dirt and whatever. New fuel filter and bled the system started right up. Waited 10 min. and she started right up again. The real test is overnight. Thanks to all for your tricks and suggestions. I don't know where I'd be without yous guys.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 20:26   #14
whitedog
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Well, done by the Missus. You owe her a nice dinner.

On a related note, I often find it helpful to explain something to a gal when i'm struggling with things. They often come up with some helpful questions and observations.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 20:01   #15
bagger
 
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More that you know!!
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