www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2014 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You



Go Back   TDIClub Forums > TDI Model Specific Discussions Areas > VW MKV-A5 Golf/Jettas

VW MKV-A5 Golf/Jettas Discussions area for A5/MkV Jetta/Golf (2005/2006 PD and 2009 CR).

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 7th, 2012, 18:18   #1
maloosheck
Veteran Member
 
maloosheck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sterling, VA
Default Intake Manifold Flap / Anti Shudder Valve weird behaviour

2006 Jetta TDI PD (BRM engine code):

My IMF/ASV is dead. It does not move at all. Bought the brand new one to replace the dead one and here is what is happening:

When I turn on the ignition the IMF closes to approx. 30% and few seconds after starting the engine it fully closes, shutting the engine off.

Is the new IMF faulty?

Or is it possible that the EGR valve is also shot and it does not open when the IMF closes (the engine was cold)?

Last edited by maloosheck; June 8th, 2012 at 06:43.
maloosheck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 8th, 2012, 13:41   #2
maloosheck
Veteran Member
 
maloosheck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sterling, VA
Default

Nobody can chime in?

Well, I will be pulling out the EGR valve probably tomorrow to check out if it works or not, maybe it is just stuck closed, but I have no fault code from EGR.
maloosheck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 8th, 2012, 22:42   #3
mtbr297
 
mtbr297's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Ft. Worth, TX., USA
Default

I'd say you have a faulty asv. It is only supposed to close when you turn the key off. Stuck open egr valve won't cause the asv to shut. You may also have some faulty wiring or connectors. Use vagcom and see if it functions properly. How is the 4motion coming along? I about ready to start on my r32 to tdi swap.
__________________
Steve in Fort Worth, TX
TDI club trusted mechanic.
TechnicalDieselInnovations

Last edited by mtbr297; June 8th, 2012 at 22:45.
mtbr297 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9th, 2012, 12:41   #4
maloosheck
Veteran Member
 
maloosheck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sterling, VA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbr297 View Post
I'd say you have a faulty asv. It is only supposed to close when you turn the key off. Stuck open egr valve won't cause the asv to shut. You may also have some faulty wiring or connectors. Use vagcom and see if it functions properly.
I have no fault codes with the new IMF/ASV, I just cannot run my engine longer than few seconds.

Pulled out the whole piece with the EGR valve and it does not seem to be stuck closed. It opens a bit (I have reduced EGR cycle in my chip tuning), but at the same time the IMF/ASV fully closes.

Can anybody do me a favour, pull out the pipe at IMF and make a short clip starting the COLD engine? There won't be any fault as long as you do not go over idle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbr297 View Post
How is the 4motion coming along? I about ready to start on my r32 to tdi swap.
As soon as the '85 MF is out the door up and running, Jetta gets the 4Motion swap.
maloosheck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 10th, 2012, 09:33   #5
nord
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Southern Tier NY
Fuel Economy: 47+ Avg (Passat DSG) 50 Avg (SE Manual) Warm Weather... 40 +/- Winter Conditions (All three cars)
Default

Very simply... Pull the ASV connecter and see what happens. You'll set a fault but should suffer no driveability issues. Next step is to determine why the ASV is closing. There should be no appreciable current flow until shutdown.

Since I can't remember whether this circuit is voltage actuated or ground actuated I specified "current" flow. Easy enough to test either way as there should be nothing there to activate the ASV motor until you shut down.

A meter across the leads (motor disconnected) and set to voltage will do nicely. If you see nothing out of the ordinary then test ASV for continuity to ground. It should be totally insulated.
nord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 11th, 2012, 10:41   #6
maloosheck
Veteran Member
 
maloosheck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sterling, VA
Default

Anybody with BRM local to me?
maloosheck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 11th, 2012, 19:34   #7
nord
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Southern Tier NY
Fuel Economy: 47+ Avg (Passat DSG) 50 Avg (SE Manual) Warm Weather... 40 +/- Winter Conditions (All three cars)
Default

For heavens sake, disconnect the thing as I directed! You'll know immediately whether the ASV is your problem and the worst thing that will happen is a code will be set.

After you disconnect and verify, then you can take your good old time and diagnose the root of the problem.

Or sit on your hands and hope for local help. You decide.
nord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 11th, 2012, 20:27   #8
maloosheck
Veteran Member
 
maloosheck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sterling, VA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nord View Post
For heavens sake, disconnect the thing as I directed! You'll know immediately whether the ASV is your problem and the worst thing that will happen is a code will be set.
I am not sure I properly explained my problem.

My old ASV is dead: the teeth are stripped, the flap does not move, the code is thrown.

The new ASV I ordered is weird: there is no code when I connect it, so it seems to be working just fine, but it closes itself immediately when I start the car. If I disconnect it, I get the fault code and the engine works just fine.

The replacement for the new one is on its way, I just wanted to check the start of the COLD engine in another car with good ASV.
maloosheck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 12th, 2012, 05:23   #9
nord
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Southern Tier NY
Fuel Economy: 47+ Avg (Passat DSG) 50 Avg (SE Manual) Warm Weather... 40 +/- Winter Conditions (All three cars)
Default

Well then, you're almost there. Certainly the new ASV will determine whether the fault lies within the present unit or within the circuitry. I tend to expect that your current ASV is faulty and that the motor is not fully isolated from the valve body. Your new ASV will clear up this question.

Short of the ASV being at fault there are other considerations. Since the ASV is an all or nothing unit (either open or closed), there is really no scenario where the unit should ever remain in a mid position.

You'll find four wires going to the device. Two for motor power and two to a position sensor. Spring tension will hold the valve normally open. Engine shutdown will apply voltage to activate the ASV motor, the valve shutter will cycle, and a flag will pass the sensor in order to signal to the ECU that the function has taken place... At least that's the way it should be.

If there is voltage to the motor and a ground path, you may expect the motor to cycle. If a high resistance path, then likely a partial cycle until such point as the motor is unable to overcome the homing spring.

Of course the sensor wires could also be a problem. If one or the other was crushed and partially shorted or open, then the ECU would receive spurious information and attempt to cycle the ASV based on false information.

My guess here is the ASV motor. Short of an obvious broken or shorted wire in the harness I expect the new unit will work as advertised. While your comfort level might be boosted by looking at another car, you actually have everything you need sitting right in front of you.

One suggestion before you do much of anything else... Disconnect the present unit but leave it in the intake circuit. Simply plug in the new valve and watch it cycle before you do anything else. If it works properly your problem is solved. If not, then it's diagnostic time.
nord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 13th, 2012, 02:13   #10
Ol'Rattler
Veteran Member
 
Ol'Rattler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Marysville, Wa.
TDI(s): 2006 Jetta
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by maloosheck View Post
The new ASV I ordered is weird: there is no code when I connect it, so it seems to be working just fine, but it closes itself immediately when I start the car. If I disconnect it, I get the fault code and the engine works just fine
It should not close when you start the car. The only time it should close is when you turn the key off, it will close for about 5 seconds and then open back up until the next time you turn off the key off.

Either you have a wiring problem, or the ASV you bought is not correct for your car or is defective. (Prothe garbage?)

Do you have VCDS? you may be able to determine what is going on by monitoring some of the measuring blocks.
__________________
2006 Jetta TDI
5 speed, Manufactured 06/06
DC stage 1 SMF Clutch
Draw-Tite hitch
Dash Tray
Blue tint aspherical mirrors
Euro Cupholder
Euro Light Switch
2nd grocery hook
VCDS Hacks: DRL Disabled-Seatbelt Chime Disabled-Key fob Power Windows
Adjusted Cam to Crank Timing
Ol'Rattler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13th, 2012, 14:05   #11
maloosheck
Veteran Member
 
maloosheck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sterling, VA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol'Rattler View Post
It should not close when you start the car. The only time it should close is when you turn the key off, it will close for about 5 seconds and then open back up until the next time you turn off the key off.
So even when the EGR valve opens the IMF remains fully open?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol'Rattler View Post
Either you have a wiring problem, or the ASV you bought is not correct for your car or is defective. (Prothe garbage?)
The wiring seems to be just fine. The PN seem to be the same (superseded version) and the manufacturer is the same (Siemens VDO).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol'Rattler View Post
Do you have VCDS? you may be able to determine what is going on by monitoring some of the measuring blocks.
I was checking the measuring blocks but I have not really found anything that would tell me whether the IMF is faulty or not. Is there any block that shows requested position and actual position?
maloosheck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13th, 2012, 14:10   #12
2footbraker
Veteran Member
 
2footbraker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada
Default

Some people have said the ASV closes partway when the EGR opens but I have never been able to find any evidence of this in VCDS. I do know that the turbo vanes close a bit when the EGR opens though.
__________________
2006 Jetta TDI - Malone Tuning stage 2, G60/VR6, Vogtland 55mm/Koni Sports, GTB1749V, EGR delete, Titan cam

Mk1 Rabbit PD TDI project - BEW

2footbraker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13th, 2012, 17:55   #13
nord
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Southern Tier NY
Fuel Economy: 47+ Avg (Passat DSG) 50 Avg (SE Manual) Warm Weather... 40 +/- Winter Conditions (All three cars)
Default

One more time... The ASV is a two position valve. At rest it is forced into the open position by spring tension. When activated it closes against spring pressure. There is one sensor at the limit of closed travel. Once the flag is removed from the sensor face the ECU assumes the ASV to be fully open. That's it and that's all!
nord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 13th, 2012, 18:07   #14
slamhouse
Veteran Member
 
slamhouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Stanwood, WA
Fuel Economy: Better than 95% of cars on the road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2footbraker View Post
Some people have said the ASV closes partway when the EGR opens but I have never been able to find any evidence of this in VCDS. I do know that the turbo vanes close a bit when the EGR opens though.
The ASV in the BRM motor fluctuate in throttling depending on load and speed to aid in the inhalation of exhaust gasses while cruising.

This is also where you will see the turbo vanes close slightly to raise EMP's higher than that of the intake to "push" exhaust gas into the already pressurized intake.

This valve will close fully upon engine shutdown to reduce shutdown shutter.

Upon starting the car, you may notice a slight closing action of the egr <10% but resume to fully open as the car "checks" its function.

This sounds as id an internal resistor in the assembly is shot throwing much more power to the electrical motor than desired therefore shutting it completely shortly after start-up. Or the assembly you recieved was simply defective.
__________________


GDE Tune and Meguiars on the tires
slamhouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13th, 2012, 19:00   #15
2footbraker
Veteran Member
 
2footbraker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada
Default

slamhouse, where did you find this info? I think I will have to side with nord (as abrasive as he is ) on this until evidence to the contrary is found.
__________________
2006 Jetta TDI - Malone Tuning stage 2, G60/VR6, Vogtland 55mm/Koni Sports, GTB1749V, EGR delete, Titan cam

Mk1 Rabbit PD TDI project - BEW

2footbraker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Code 19561, valve flap for intake manifold; open or short to ground. I got this check anoblefox VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) 5 December 5th, 2008 19:23
code 19561 valve for intake manifold flap anoblefox VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) 1 October 19th, 2008 02:05
P3105 code - Valve for intake Manifold Flap Jetta2001 VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) 5 March 11th, 2007 14:58
02 Golf TDi - Intake Manifold Flap Valve AIMENVIRO Fuels & Lubricants 0 November 17th, 2006 07:07
Valve for intake manifold flap ? ? mfsvs TDI 101 2 October 16th, 2006 22:51


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:22.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2014
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
1996 - 2013, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.17920 seconds with 12 queries
[Output: 137.94 Kb. compressed to 115.80 Kb. by saving 22.14 Kb. (16.05%)]