CR engine HPFP analysis

eddif said:

I do not think there is even a temp valve on the Passat filter. Which is what I was thinking, but on reading my own post I do not think that came through.

eddif

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Eddif,as I understand it there is still return fuel routed to the fuel filter, BUT not all the return fuel goes to the filter for heating.Some return fuel goes directly back to the fuel tank.The return fuel that does go into the filter does not return to the fuel tank but becomes supply fuel. This is the reason there is only 3 lines on the fuel filter canister lid.I do not know which or how the return fuel fuel is.divided up or where it comes from as I've never seen a 12 Passat fuel system in the flesh. That's my understanding of how its set up. Hope that helps.

One other thing. There would be return fuel from the injectors and from the hpfp. Not sure which fuel goes to the filter and which goes directly back to the fuel tank.

jbright said:

"If doing an "oil lube" HPFP were easy, I keep reminding myself, BOSCH would have done it. I'm hoping the decision to stick with fuel lube was based on cost and efficiency rather than feasibility."​

...
I still lean toward the problem being caused by poor fuel quality in the US, but if that's the case then there should be problems in all the various developing and Third World countries where fuel quality is, no doubt, worse than ours...

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Fuel quality is more likely related to the transportation fuel mix rather than economic standing (developed vs developing economies). Europe and developing Asia consume more middle distillate fuels as compared to the US. In the US refinery operation is geared more toward gasoline production.

jbright said:

I still lean toward the problem being caused by poor fuel quality in the US, but if that's the case then there should be problems in all the various developing and Third World countries where fuel quality is, no doubt, worse than ours.

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Aren't most under developed countries still running higher sulphur diesel? Remember that a lot of the natural lubricity is stripped out when they remove the sulphur. They also don't have all of the emmissions crap on their cars, like in North America and Europe.

Thanks
That explains why VW is not seeing vast failures of the HPFP around the world.

2010_Jetta_TDI said:

Thanks for posting. Nice article.

The graph surprised me though. Wear scar increases modestly as the fuel temperature approaches 120C and then falls dramatically.

I'm not sure I'd conclude that high temps are a huge risk to lubricity induced failures as well additized fuels never go above the 460 wear scar threshold.

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Yeah, but look at figure 16 for un-additized ULSD: there's a tripling in scuffing load from 60-90C. When I first read the paper, I arrived at the similar conclusion as you. But then I read more. I do think you hand-wave this away at your risk. Looking again at figure 15, the increase in scuffing diameter isn't modest, except for the well-additized case of 1000 ppm ester (BioD). The slope or relative % increase of scar diameters are:

....................................................(Max-Min)/Min = % increase
100 ppm antioxidant & base ULSD.......(610-570)/570 = OOS
200 ppm ester.................................(350-200)/200 = +75%
1000 ppm ester & B5........................(190-170)/170 = +12%
200 ppm acid..................................(360-200)/200 = +80%


Consider fuel that's barely in specification when it it additized in the tanker truck--the company cheaper out on 200 ppm additive or 100 ppm antioxidant or some proprietary stuff that doesn't perform as well as these here--Then the di**hit loads it into an in-ground tank that had gasoline in it (it happens all too often), or too much water, rust, muck, crap, etcetera. The excess water and muck in the in-ground tank strips out the polar compound in the additive that are the sole source of protection, or residual gasoline thins out the fuel. You fuel up with it, it gets hot, and its no longer anywhere near spec.

I think the HPFP problem is one of marginal design based on marginal fuel. When you get a car with an HPFP that was built with marginal metallurgy and you fuel up with marginal fuel, then it gets hot, you have a perfect storm of conditions for failure. Plus, the design is full of cascading failure mode.

nicklockard said:

....................................................(Max-Min)/Min = % increase
100 ppm antioxidant & base ULSD.......(610-570)/570 = OOS
200 ppm ester.................................(350-200)/200 = +75%
1000 ppm ester & B5........................(190-170)/170 = +12%
200 ppm acid..................................(360-200)/200 = +80%

I think the HPFP problem is one of marginal design based on marginal fuel. When you get a car with an HPFP that was built with marginal metallurgy and you fuel up with marginal fuel, then it gets hot, you have a perfect storm of conditions for failure. Plus, the design is full of cascading failure mode.

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I agree with your conclusions at the end but if you go back to the table above I parsed it a little different.

If you have unadditized fuel, it is less than a 10% difference in wear scar but you're pretty well screwed anyway <== USE AN ADDITIVE

The other 3 results are well below the 460 wear scar so an increase there doesn't scare me so much.

I guess you're arguing that if you start out on the margin, you end up screwed because of temperature. I'm sure that's true.

I sort of viewed it as if you're within spec and well additized, temperature won't take you from "good fuel" to "bad fuel".

My solution is B2-B5 in every tank plus PS or Howes in the winter.

specsalot said:

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Very interesting. Thanks. I'm wondering what diesel engines (and emission systems) VW offers around the world.

specsalot said:

Fuel quality is more likely related to the transportation fuel mix rather than economic standing (developed vs developing economies). Europe and developing Asia consume more middle distillate fuels as compared to the US. In the US refinery operation is geared more toward gasoline production.

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Good point.

That graph was from 2009. I wonder how much 3 years have changed the map.

My guess is that the ULSD has spread to more European countries. Probably not a lot of other changes. This could help also explain why there are now US Passats, European Passats, and Chinese Passats. I know the European passat is a refresh from the B6, while the other two are the same design but obviously different emmisssions requirements.

Also explains why GM may not bring the new colorado to the US. It was designed in Thialand with different emmisions requirements and would have needed modified to pass the EPA/CARB tests and run on ULSD.

2010_Jetta_TDI said:

That graph was from 2009. I wonder how much 3 years have changed the map.

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kjclow said:

My guess is that the ULSD has spread to more European countries. Probably not a lot of other changes. This could help also explain why there are now US Passats, European Passats, and Chinese Passats. I know the European passat is a refresh from the B6, while the other two are the same design but obviously different emmisssions requirements.

Also explains why GM may not bring the new colorado to the US. It was designed in Thialand with different emmisions requirements and would have needed modified to pass the EPA/CARB tests and run on ULSD.

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These figures are from a UN program and they really don't do a lot of drill down specifically in the eurozone. I think Europe is now on a B5 regimen which lowers sulphur to 15 ppm. Have to research this.

My brother has a nice Colorado sized Toyota 4WD pick up in Thailand. Toyota has a big presence in the pick up truck market over there. The vehicle is optimized / geared for typical rural Thai roads. The engine is a 3.5L V-6 (I think). I know it has variable turbine geometry. I think piezo injectors. I didn't really look under the hood. It's a shame Toyota doesn't bring it over - it would sell like crazy. But there are little or no emission requirements. I don't think it has a DPF. Anyone who knows anything does and EGR delete straight away. Ups the mileage.

I believe the current European standard is EN590/2009. Note this fuel requires 7% (volume) FAME content (i.e. bio-diesel).

A spec for it was found at the following URL:http://www.mabanaft.com/Mabanaft/images/pdf/prodspec-Diesel.pdf

specsalot said:

I believe the current European standard is EN590/2009. Note this fuel requires 7% (volume) FAME content (i.e. bio-diesel).

A spec for it was found at the following URL:http://www.mabanaft.com/Mabanaft/images/pdf/prodspec-Diesel.pdf

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If it isnt the standard, there are certainly a lot of places that use it, at least in germany. I've noticed the EN590 thing on MANY diesel pumps there, maybe all and just dont particularly notice every time, but never knew (or cared since it's always going in rentals) what exactly it meant. I'm usually over there a couple months at a time once or twice a year with a rental, not counting much shorter just passing through times.

From Dieselnet: http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/eu/fuel_automotive.php
Some of the important revisions of the EN 590 standard were:
EN 590:1993—The first EU diesel fuel specification. It established a sulfur limit of 0.2% in onroad and nonroad diesel fuels.
EN 590:1999—This standard reflected the sulfur (350 ppm) and cetane (51) specifications by Directive 98/70/EC.
EN 590:2004—Sulfur limits of 50 ppm (so called Euro 4) and 10 ppm (Euro 5) as regulated by Directive 2003/17/EC. FAME content of 5%.
EN 590:2009—FAME content of 7% as regulated by Directive 2009/30/EC. This directive also adopts mandatory biofuel requirements for refiners and introduces a 10 ppm S limit in nonroad fuels effective 2011.

It's interesting how the EU pushed up FAME content requirements (5% to 7%) at about the same time Bosch CP4.1 HPFP's went into large scale production. Time to re-think the use of bio-diesel as far as I'm concerned.

I did some VCDS logging of fuel temperature today. Outside ambient temperature was ~32.2 DEG C (~90 DEG F). I logged an afternoon run AFTER the engine was up to ambient temp (Coolant ~90 DEG C). The loop I ran was ~ 6 miles of in-town traffic followed by ~ 35 miles of highway speeds (60 - 75 MPH). I ended the run with 15 minutes of idling in my drive way. My fuel gage read averaged ~ 3/8 full.

In-town traffic Fuel Temp was ~ 56 DEG C (132.8 DEG F). During traffic light stops, max Fuel temp reached ~ 57.6 DEG C (135.7 DEG F). When I reached the highway section fuel temp was ~ 56 DEG C (132.8 DEG F). During the highway run the fuel temp dropped to a low of 54 DEG C (129.2 DEG F). When I arrived home fuel temp was ~ 56 DEG C (132.8 DEG F). At the end of ~ 15 minutes of idling in my asphalt driveway the fuel temp was ~ 64 DEG C (147.2 DEG F)

In summation, under normal traffic fuel temperature did not rise more than 3 DEG C (5.4 DEG F). With prolonged idling fuel temp rose a maximum of ~ 8 DEG C (14.4 DEG F) I'm concerned about these fuel temperature levels. I assume that fuel pressure inside the HPFP is sufficient to prevent cavitation issues. It will be interesting to see if the Passat runs lower temps under similar conditions.

Great observations specsalot. It would be very interesting to see how much the temperatures would change from your roughly 1/2 tank to a lower level, like a 1/4 tank.

My plan is to run my existing tank down and run this same loop at least a couple more times. The plots of the data are not real interesting to look at, but looking at the time transients I hope to get a sense of dependencies involved. I will also be looking for wider temperature elevations under idling conditions.

The fuel gauge is not linear. I started the run slightly above 3/8 tank and finished at about 5/16 tank. I know when the gage is reading these values, the tank is somewhat lower.

Percentage of failures

I am sure one of you folks have done the math. What percentage of these engines are seeing failure of the PHFP? Has anyone done a chart of failures vs mileage?

Frog

Officially from the reported listings on the NHSTA website, less than 1%.

At doug67coug, as far as failures of hpfps manufactured in the Czech Rebublic at the Bosch plant located there. I'm not sure what all models are equipped the Czech hpfp.Maybe someone else can shed some light on that. I believe that the 2012 Passat does have the Czech-hpfp and we have not heard of any Passat yet.(Which is a good thing) 2Micron does however have a Passat hpfp that failed due to gas misfuelinh. So,that does tell us that the Czech hpfp IS still susceptible to damage from misfuling.

One difference to note on the Czech hpfp is that the follower NO LONGER has the coating as did the earlier MY hpfps.

On a side note: it may be interesting to czech out the 2013 Beetle to see just what hpfp is being used on it because it still has (unless changes have been made) the CBEA style fuel system.

This is the kind of stuff that keeps me here. Interesting.......to say the least.

Frogwalking said:

I am sure one of you folks have done the math. What percentage of these engines are seeing failure of the PHFP? Has anyone done a chart of failures vs mileage?
Frog

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Plus 3 Golfer has done a great job looking at NHTSA (National Highway Transportation Safety Administration) failure data. As I'm sure you are aware NHTSA is currently conducting an 'engineering evaluation' of HPFP failures. I'm sure Plus 3 Golfer has posted figures in multiple threads. If you look at his photo album on this board there are many graphics showing HPFP failure data.

Here is one link to one of his brief summaries(see post #65)
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=3666304&highlight=graph#post3666304

In this post he says:

There were 160 complaints related to the HPFP (NHTSA + VW), 154 HPFP warranty claims, and 121 HPFP misfuelling incidents. There is no evidence presented that any of the 160 complaints / 154 warranty claims were due to misfuelling.

So, the HPFP failures from all sources are about 281 out of 97,603 (from NHTSA detailed list of models with CR TDI engines for MY 2009 and 2010 excluding Touregs and Audis ) or 0.29% from all sources. The 0.29% is made up of 0.53% from 40,069 MY 2009s and 0.11% from 57,534 MY 2010s. The data is about a year old and we know that HPFPs on 2009s and 2010s have continued to fail (along with MY2011s). Based on the VW data supplied to NHTSA, MY2009s had on average 32,596 miles and MY2010s had on average 12,419 miles at the time of HPFP failure. There's a graph below showing the HPFP failures based on the NHTSA data supplied by VW (the 121 misfuelling not included) by MY and mileage bin.

Everyone can interpret the data and graph as they wish and draw their own conclusions based on facts not ancedotal evidence. Again, the data is about a year old and we know that HPFPs on 2009s and 2010s are continuing to fail (along with MY2011s).

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I haven't read every post here, but think this might be relevant...

I was visiting a DC area VW service dept, and had a lengthy talk with the parts mgr. He pronounced that they were in the process of replacing their FIRST CR HPFP (in a 10 Jetta...NOT a catastrophic failure, but a knocking noise they think is the HPFP...car running fine, fuel pressures fine...this sounds suspicious...) . He said he'd never even SEEN one. I asked what version they were using as a replacement, and he said, quite frankly, he didn't know. He had never seen one! He was aware of the various "updated HPFPs", but had never held one in his hands.

I asked if I could look at the replacement HPFP. He opened the sealed box, in front of me, and took out a new pump with the following numbers:
0 445 010 508
CR/CP4S1/R35/20
03L 130 755 A
09 221111
BPY 1794
Made in the Czech Republic

I was specifically looking for the Czech Republic label. I asked him if I ordered an HPFP pump today, would it be this version (Czech). He wasn't sure, because the dealership didn't order the pump, VW Techline did. He didn't even have a current price for it, as it came in for warranty replacement.

Is this significant? Again, I've not been following closely enough to know. He also stated that the HPFP in the 2012 Passat is different than the 09-11 VW CR. Is that true, or is his lack of HPFP experience showing?

tdiatlast said:

I haven't read every post here, but think this might be relevant...

I was visiting a DC area VW service dept, and had a lengthy talk with the parts mgr. He pronounced that they were in the process of replacing their FIRST CR HPFP (in a 10 Jetta...NOT a catastrophic failure, but a knocking noise they think is the HPFP...car running fine, fuel pressures fine...this sounds suspicious...) . He said he'd never even SEEN one. I asked what version they were using as a replacement, and he said, quite frankly, he didn't know. He had never seen one! He was aware of the various "updated HPFPs", but had never held one in his hands.

I asked if I could look at the replacement HPFP. He opened the sealed box, in front of me, and took out a new pump with the following numbers:
0 445 010 508
CR/CP4S1/R35/20
03L 130 755 A
09 221111
BPY 1794
Made in the Czech Republic

I was specifically looking for the Czech Republic label. I asked him if I ordered an HPFP pump today, would it be this version (Czech). He wasn't sure, because the dealership didn't order the pump, VW Techline did. He didn't even have a current price for it, as it came in for warranty replacement.

Is this significant? Again, I've not been following closely enough to know. He also stated that the HPFP in the 2012 Passat is different than the 09-11 VW CR. Is that true, or is his lack of HPFP experience showing?

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Same part number different pump.Looks like to me replacement pumps are now "Made in the Czech Republic" and probably another revision. Just a guess on my part. Seems like the Service Manager is not a wealth of info. Or atleast he is not devulging info if he does know anything. Who knows?

HPFP Czech Pump Differences

Hello All,
Here are some obvious differences in a Czech Made 2012 Passat Pump VS our "Regular" German 2.0 tdi Pumps:
.
1.) The Cam has a 0.058" (1.5mm) LONGER stroke.
2.) The Follower no longer has the coating on it and it is ground to a
much better surface finish. (dweisel already identified this, thanks.)
3.) The Bearing Material is different and appears again, to have a
better surface finish.
4.) The pump cover plate is slightly different, only to allow easier
casting /machining.
5.) The Main body is also a different material. Looks more like a
hypereutectic cast material . (More silicon than regular cast
aluminum.)
6.) The FCV is a different part Number.
7.) All surfaces are finished to a better standard.

.
Here are the similarities:
1.) Same design and principal.
2.) Same aluminum Bore and bore diameter.
3.) Same Diamond coated roller shoe and roller diameter.
4.) Same High pressure Plunger Diameter and Head with Valve.
5.) Same internal COV valve.
.
The good news:
The new Czech Pumps for our cars will most likely have the above improvements, but not the longer stroke for the Passat. (the Passat has different injectors.)
This Czech Pump is definitely made to a better standard. The Main Body Casting (hypereutectic)may increase pump life and decrease alum particles in the filter.
.

Czech Pump from 2012 Passat.
.

Our follower on left, Czech on Right.
.

Czech Left, Ours Right.
.

Czech Left, Ours Right.
.

Czech Left, Ours Right.
.

Czech Left, Ours Right.
All the best,

tdiatlast said:

I haven't read every post here, but think this might be relevant...

I was visiting a DC area VW service dept, and had a lengthy talk with the parts mgr. He pronounced that they were in the process of replacing their FIRST CR HPFP (in a 10 Jetta...NOT a catastrophic failure, but a knocking noise they think is the HPFP...car running fine, fuel pressures fine...this sounds suspicious...) . He said he'd never even SEEN one. I asked what version they were using as a replacement, and he said, quite frankly, he didn't know. He had never seen one! He was aware of the various "updated HPFPs", but had never held one in his hands.

I asked if I could look at the replacement HPFP. He opened the sealed box, in front of me, and took out a new pump with the following numbers:
0 445 010 508
CR/CP4S1/R35/20
03L 130 755 A
09 221111
BPY 1794
Made in the Czech Republic

I was specifically looking for the Czech Republic label. I asked him if I ordered an HPFP pump today, would it be this version (Czech). He wasn't sure, because the dealership didn't order the pump, VW Techline did. He didn't even have a current price for it, as it came in for warranty replacement.

Is this significant? Again, I've not been following closely enough to know. He also stated that the HPFP in the 2012 Passat is different than the 09-11 VW CR. Is that true, or is his lack of HPFP experience showing?

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True, the passat ends in P/N 155 E. Not A

2micron said:

Hello All,
I have a Czech Pump disassembled and have noted a couple of differences from previous generations:
This one is a 2011, 03L 130 755 AB.
- the piston no longer has a coating and is ground to a better surface
finish.
- the roller and follower shoe are the same, with the diamond coating.
- the cam shaft has a much better surface finish as well.
- the main body appears to be a different forged material.
http://s1059.photobucket.com/albums/t428/2micron/?action=view&current=DSCI0070.jpg
Unfortunately, this pump has bore damage, very similar to all the others we have seen.
I have not yet been able to test the hardness of the internals, compared to the previous generations, but I will update.
Can anyone please post the diameters or number of teeth of the pump and crankshaft sprockets??
I have conflicting information about the speed of these pumps.
Some say 2 times crank speed, some say the same as crank speed. This information would be very helpful in testing.
Thanks,
All the best,

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If it's the same pulley diameter as the pulley on the crankshaft, then it is running at crank speed. If it is 2x the diameter of the crank shaft pulley, then it is running 1/2 crank speed.

The HPFP on an inline Common Rail 4 cylinder TDI runs at cranks speed if it has 2 lobes inside to be driven. 3 cyl and 6 cylinders run at 2/3 and the V6 also, it has 2 head /plungers being driven, again at 2/3 speed.

Is Bosch trying to salvage a design with new improved materials, or is it just to get the HPFP out of warranty by VW before it fails again? Inquiring minds want to know.

So, the redesigned 2012 Passat pump is still made in Germany, and the new Jetta TDI HPFP ("...definitely made to a better standard", says 2micron) is made in the Czech Republic?
I'm not sure I like the sound of that, although I guess the re-engineering in the Passat pump may take care of the earlier fragility...

So is there any idea what the price of Czech made pump is? Wonder if replacing the German pump with the Czech pump should be considered as a preemptive strike against a complete failure?

oilhammer said:

So do all the VE TDIs with automatics, and all PD and CR TDIs regardless of transmission.

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Is the cooler run because it has an automatic transmission, or because the automatics came with 11mm pumps which generate higher pressure and heat the fuel more?