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Fuels & Lubricants Discussion all about Fuels & Lubricants. synthetic oil, conventional oil, brands, change intervals, diesel grades, gelling and such debated items like that. Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed. This forum is NOT for the discussion of biodiesel and other alternative fuels.

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Old April 26th, 2012, 20:57   #6241
TornadoRed
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Originally Posted by jrivers804 View Post
The whole thing about different amounts of fuel in summer and winter sounds like a bunch of hooey to me. Most tanks are underground, which maintains a pretty constant temperature. That's the basis for geothermal heat pumps after all. So, unless you buy from a place with above ground pumps, I doubt it makes much difference. If the temp underground is 50F then I doubt it expands much in the few seconds it takes to travel to the nozzle. Just another story to rile people up over nothing, IMO.
Colder fuel is more dense. At most stations, the fuel does not sit in underground tanks for many days, but is replaced frequently. So in the summer, if the fuel is warm when it is delivered, it stays warm. And in the winter, in the colder climates, it may be below 32F when delivered and remain that cold until it's pumped into your car or truck.

At the terminals, all the tanks are above-ground.

Here is some recent news:
4/20/2012
Three More Companies Settle in 'Hot Fuel' Suits

Three companies, Walmart (and its Sam's Club subsidiary), Valero Energy Corp. and Casey's General Stores have joined the ranks of businesses settling "hot fuel" lawsuits, reports the Kansas City Star.

Hot fuel is the term used for the expansion of fuel in warmer temperatures. Because of this, consumers at the pump get less energy per gallon while paying the same price.

Lawsuits in recent years have charged oil companies and fuel providers with failing to adjust prices for temperature changes (although oil companies argue that in the colder months, consumers get more energy per gallon).

These three newest settlements must still be approved by the court's chief judge, Kathryn Vratil, but if she does approve, they will apply to dozens of hot-fuel lawsuits filed around the U.S.

Two weeks ago, BP Products North America Inc., ConocoPhillips Co. and Shell Oil Products US agreed to settle. The details of those settlements are not yet available, but they will likely stipulate that the companies facilitate the adoption of a hot-fuel fix, the Star reported. This would automatically adjust prices for temperature at fueling stations.

Costco Wholesale Corp. settled 2009, agreeing to change pumps in the hottest regions of the country.

When it first started reporting on the issue, The Kansas City Star estimated that hot fuel costs consumers $2.3 billion a year, now $3.5 billion at current fuel prices.
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Old April 26th, 2012, 20:59   #6242
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Originally Posted by jrivers804 View Post
Most tanks are underground, which maintains a pretty constant temperature. That's the basis for geothermal heat pumps after all. So, unless you buy from a place with above ground pumps, I doubt it makes much difference. If the temp underground is 50F then I doubt it expands much in the few seconds it takes to travel to the nozzle.
A couple of times this winter I noticed frost on the pump nozzle right after we'd had some ice fog. After I filled up, it was all gone. I don't know how far down the tanks are, but I'm guessing the temp is a constant 38F or so.
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Old April 27th, 2012, 04:25   #6243
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In the Toronto region the temperature of the ground 7' down is 7-8C in the dead of Winter. In the Summer it is about 14C. Here most pumps simply have a sticker on them that say that the volume is corrected to 15C which is about the underground temperature in the Summer. That sounds to me like you are getting more fuel energy for the same money in the Winter months, barring Winterization of the fuel of course.
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Old April 27th, 2012, 08:45   #6244
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diesel's volume expansion coefficient is really small.

Quote:
Originally Posted by technical file


Source: Chevron website technical file

THERMAL EXPANSION
Like all liquids, diesel fuel expands slightly in volume as its temperature increases. The coefficient of thermal expansion measures the rate of the expansion. A typical value of the coefficient of thermal expansion for diesel fuel is 0.00083 per degree Celsius (0.00046 per degree Fahrenheit). Using this value, 1.000 gallon of diesel fuel at -7C (20F) will expand to 1.037 gallons at 38C (100F).
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Old April 27th, 2012, 08:51   #6245
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diesel's volume expansion coefficient is really small.
That is true. But lawyers heard about "hot fuel" and figured there was a lot of money to be made by suing the fuel retailers. Apparently no one wants to go to court to battle against this.
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Old April 27th, 2012, 20:48   #6246
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It's easier and cheaper to settle than to drag it into court.
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Old April 29th, 2012, 19:16   #6247
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Well it took 14 months of fueling without ever seeing another TDI pull up at the same time and finally today an A3 drives up at the other diesel island. I had just started filling, so casually walked over to make sure it was in fact a TDI. I fuel at a truck station where only 1 of 4 nozzles is auto sized. Young lady starts to get out and I do see TDI. Tell her only high flow nozzles in this area except the side I'm using. I can see that didn't resonate and then said all the pumps other than mine are for trucks. I was hoping to strike up a conversation to see if she was a member, but she just stayed in her car with the windows up until I was done.
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Old April 29th, 2012, 20:14   #6248
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Mark III TDIs take high flow or truck nozzles just fine. One advantage to my 98, I can fill up just about any where that sells diesel. I say "just about" because I'm sure there's an exception but I've been able to fill at any diesel pump I've tried. The 06 on the other hand needs the "car" sized nozzle.
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Old April 30th, 2012, 02:57   #6249
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I think TDiSkater may have meant Audi A3, which is a Mk5, and therefore can't take high flow nozzles.
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Old April 30th, 2012, 04:41   #6250
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My wife is the daily driver of her Gecko Green Metallic '06 MB TDI. I rarely, if ever, drive it. My wife tells me that there is always some "helpful" male driver at the station who "let's her know" that she is "putting diesel into her car!!" She always smiles, but says nothing, because she doesn't want some strange guy to be angry at her at a fueling station. I would regularly tell her what I would say if it happened to me. Yesterday I got my chance.

My wife had driven my car to work so I could put new windshield wipers on the car. I decided to fill it up while I had it. All of the pumps at the station were being used, except the diesel pump, which is on the same "one-pump island" as the gas pump. There was some middle-aged guy with his new Corvette filling at the gas pump. I backed into the diesel pump, just behind his car. I popped the fuel door and proceeded to get the diesel pump ready to fill the car. Mr. Helpful, with the Corvette, said, in his condescending voice, "you know that pump is diesel, right?."

I had the chance I had practiced for!!!

I responded: "You mean you don't choose the color of the pump handle to match the car?" The diesel pump handles are green, like the car. He says: No!! "That is diesel fuel, not gas!" I said: "What do you think I should put into the car?" He said: "Gasoline, Not diesel! Of course!" I said: "I wonder why Volkswagen printed 'Diesel fuel only' on this fuel lid and fuel cap? Think I should ignore it and put in gasoline anyways?" He looked shocked. I pointed to the chrome "TDI" badge I put under the VW symbol on the rear decklid and said "The 'D' in TDI stands for Diesel, not 'Dip****'." I then proceeded to fill up the car.

He didn't say another word.

My wife was so happy that it finally got to be said.
I wouldn't say this to anyone in a gas station (hell, ANYWHERE). Must be my morbid fear of dying.....
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Old April 30th, 2012, 07:18   #6251
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I wouldn't say this to anyone in a gas station (hell, ANYWHERE). Must be my morbid fear of dying.....
On top of that, I thought the "D" in TDI stood for DIRECT not DIESEL.
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Old April 30th, 2012, 07:31   #6252
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On top of that, I thought the "D" in TDI stood for DIRECT not DIESEL.
It does. Bug4xtc was showing his ignorance in addition to being a jerk.
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Old April 30th, 2012, 15:00   #6253
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Redirect to "Filling up at a gasoline station" stories topic.
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Old April 30th, 2012, 18:23   #6254
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I think TDiSkater may have meant Audi A3, which is a Mk5, and therefore can't take high flow nozzles.
Sorry, yes Audi A3. I guess I got overly excited and didn't realize A3 also had a VW meaning. Learned something new today.

I usually fuel next to a fire truck or all by myself in the truck area of the station. I frequently fuel on Sunday to avoid the insane truck traffic during the week.
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Old April 30th, 2012, 19:28   #6255
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Yeah, I think this is why VW switched to P designations in the Mk4 Golf era (as in, instead of A4, PQ34), and why Europeans tend to use the Typ code.

So, we'd be talking about the Typ 8P Audi A3, rather than the Typ 1H VW Jetta.
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The really cool ToofTek made "Emperor's Clothes" injector fork risers only worked until someone pointed out that there wasn't any thing there.
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