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Go Back   TDIClub Forums > TDI Model Specific Discussions Areas > VW MKVI-A6 Golf family including Jetta SportWagen (~ 2010+)

VW MKVI-A6 Golf family including Jetta SportWagen (~ 2010+) Discussions area for A6/MkVI (2010+) Golf and Golf Wagons (Jetta Sportwagon in the USA).

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Old March 31st, 2012, 14:12   #76
specsalot
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More for folks wanting details more from the 3L TDI narrative about injector operation:

"With the application of a voltage, the piezo actuator expands by up to 0.0012 inch (0.03 mm)."

Injection starts when pressure is bled off the control chamber via the switching valve.



Injection ends when Control Chamber pressure is built up after closure of the switching valve.



With these kinds of small movements only a small amount of trash would be game over for these injectors. If Bosch can design something this precise, it's hard to understand what the issues are with the HPFP. It's more than filtration, but keeping trash and water out should surely be a help.
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Old March 31st, 2012, 15:19   #77
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The full narrative for the 3L can be found at the following link. It provides the above details regarding fuel injectors. The technology can't be much different on the 2L CR TDI. Took me a while to find the link that was originally posted by Nimbus. The pdf is still on line, but who knows for how long.

http://152.66.93.29/audi/download/vw...I/3L%20TDI.pdf
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Last edited by specsalot; March 31st, 2012 at 15:37.
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Old March 31st, 2012, 17:20   #78
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According to the diagrams in the self-study guide, the filter screen is between the Aux pump and the HPFP. How is it going to stop particles from getting to the rest of the fuel system? Just as particles precipitate to the bottom of the fuel filter canister, I would bet it also collects on the bottom of the fuel tank. If it gets sucked up by the lift pump, the fuel filter should stop them. But is the filter screen a finer filter than the regular fuel filter?

I would have to think that if the HPFP is shedding metal, some of it will go into the rail, and some of it will go out the low side return. Since so little fuel is injected as compared to what heads back to the tank, maybe the injectors don't see to much of the particles.
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Old March 31st, 2012, 20:48   #79
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The filter screen between the Aux Fuel Pump and the HPFP is likely there to protect the HPFP in the event of failure of the fuel filter element or disintegration of the Aux Fuel Pump. The fuel filter is much finer than this filter screen.

The Aux Fuel Pump I've opened up looks like it could be a source of metallic material in the fuel stream.



As I've suggested, there's a reason VW is choosing to eliminate this pump in favor of a higher output pump located on the inlet side of their fuel filter. This thread is supposed to be about filtration. I tend to get off topic easily. To be fair to the OP and others lets move questions about HPFP failure over to the failure analysis thread. I will repost your questions and reply in the failure analysis thread.

What is know is that ~ 99% of HPFP's are not failing. The vast majority are operating with stock fuel filtration. Most HPFP failures do not show any significant symptoms until failure occurs.
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Last edited by specsalot; March 31st, 2012 at 20:54.
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Old April 13th, 2012, 19:29   #80
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Default Return fuel heating valve testing.

Quote:
From specsalot:I believe it is not a coincidence that VW redesigned the fuel system of the Passat to eliminate both the aux fuel pump and the fuel heating valve / recirculation circuit through the fuel filter. Issues with either of these components could impact fuel recirculation volume. A stuck closed fuel heating valve could also lead to elevated HPFP supply pressures. Elevated HPFP supply pressure might make it difficult to control CR pressure potentially over stressing pump components. HPFP's that experience significant reductions in recirculation flow might experience thermal transients (i.e. overheating) that contribute to failure. Bosch automation does not monitor return fuel temperatures, only the temperature of fuel entering the HPFP.
Hello all,
Just an update on testing and elimination of the Return Fuel Heating Valve, within the stock fuel canister.
These tests are done in water, low air pressure to simulate flow.
The purpose of the tests were only to determine at which temperatures the valve re-directs fuel back to the tank and an attempt to determine the thermostatic effect on the HPFP.
.
This is the underside of the fuel filter canister lid. The White item in the middle is the valve that directs return flow back to the HPFP, or returns fuel back to the tank.
This is the Valve Fully Open - Cold and Returning fuel to HPFP:

.
This is the Valve Closed - Hot and returning fuel to Tank:

.
Here are the Temperature Specs (Degrees Fahrenheit):
55*F - Fully Open - 100% return to HPFP.
59*F - Starts to move - 100% return to HPFP.
68*F - 1/16" Movement - 100% return to HPFP.
82*F - 1/2 way Closed - 100% return to HPFP.
89*F - 3/4 way Closed - Return to tank begins, 98% return to HPFP.
112*F - Closed - 25% return to HPFP.
125*F - Seated 100% - 5% return to HPFP.
.
The valve doesn't seal off the return to the HPFP 100%. The in-situ flow rates will be slightly different due to the slight pressure differential between the in tank pump (canister side 12psi) and the Rail return side (9psi). The temperature values at which the valve actuates will remain the same though.
.
Looks to me that VW is attempting to thermostatically control the incoming Fuel Temperature to the HPFP around 90*F.
I originally thought this system was for quick heating of the fuel at cold temperatures to avoid freeze up of fuel. Seeing these numbers leads me to believe it is attempting to heat the HPFP up to 90*F quickly, then latent heat from the motor will maintain the pump at coolant temp.
One issue to note is the valve is very slow to respond to temp changes. This may become an issue in overheating the Pump.
One of our members stated problems with a similar set up on earlier generation TDI's. Anyone have any thoughts???
All the best,
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Old April 13th, 2012, 20:39   #81
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Nice pictures and measurement data - Well Done

To get some idea's of fuel temperatures I made the following measurements last August using an IR thermomenter.

HPFP Body Temp ~ 142 DEG F
Fuel Return Line Temp ~ 153 DEG F (measures @ return line from injectors)
Fuel Filter Body Temp ~ 137 DEG F

What I need to do is some VCDS logging of fuel temp to the HPFP under various conditions to see how much of a temperature variation occurs. Based on your overall flow measurements the entire tank moves through the system in ~ 20 minutes max. Under summer conditions, the fuel tank probably acts a bit like a radiator dissipating heat from the vehicle fuel.

This is one more reason not to run the tank to a near empty condition before refueling. I tend to use the same station all the time and typically fill up when my tank is somewhere between 3/8 and 1/2 full.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 20:20   #82
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Today I made an ~ 300 mile RT. I brought VCDS and did some fuel temperature logging. The graphs are not real interesting but I will summarize results below.

Logging was started from cold start with the car in my driveway. The majority of travel after ~ 10 minutes time was all interstate with cruise control set at ~ 118 km/hr.

Outbound Leg Departure (fuel tank ~ 70% full)
Ambient Air Temperature: ~ 16 DEG C
Fuel Temp ~24 DEG C
Coolant Stabilized @ ~ 94 DEG C in ~10 minutes driving time
Fuel Temperature Stabilized @ ~ 27 DEG C in 30 minutes driving time

Outbound Leg Arrival
Ambient Air Temperature ~ 24 DEG C
Coolant Temperature ~ 96 DEG C
Fuel Temperature ~ 37 DEG C

Return Leg was not logged from start up. The car was refueled and up to normal operating temperatures. Logging began on the interstate portion of the run. Cruise control was set at ~ 118 km/hr.

Return Leg Departure
Ambient Air Temperature ~ 28 DEG C
Coolant Temperature ~ 96 DEG C
Fuel Temperature ~ 36 DEG C

Return Leg Arrival
Ambient Air Temperature ~ 26 DEG C
Coolant Temperature ~ 96 DEG C
Fuel Temperature ~ 40 DEG C

I'm not ready to draw strong conclusions based on this data. One thing that was clear in the loggings was that fuel temperature tended to jump up as the vehicle slowed down from highway speed. The implication is that convective heat transfer due to air flow in the engine compartment plays a role in fuel temperature. The temperatures recorded in post 81 above were taken in my driveway after stop and go traffic. More loggings are required to fill in the picture here.
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Last edited by specsalot; April 16th, 2012 at 20:24.
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Old April 22nd, 2012, 11:23   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2micron View Post
Hello Everyone!!
First timer here and glad to see such a nice “Family” related to TDI’s.
I just bought a 2010 Wagon, 6 speed about 2 weeks ago from a very good VW dealer in Ottawa Ontario. The car was traded in with 50,000 km’s on a new DSG wagon. After driving it 200 km’s, I set about adding better fuel filtration, in attempts to prolong HPFP life.
This is my first TDI, but not my first diesel. Most diesel’s have a means to separate and detect water in the fuel, as well as fine micron filtration. Modern CR engines require 2 Micron filtered fuel. To properly achieve this, primary and secondary filtration is one of the most accepted practices. As for water in fuel, this may not be as common today due to better practices, fibre-glass in ground storage tanks as well as plastic tanks on our cars (to reduce condensate), but it can still happen. My wife’s Cummins Diesel was only weeks old when it got a helping of water. The water separator and warning light prevented disaster. A simple filter drain, then a $45 filter had it back on the road. The station was a well used and a reputable company, but unfortunately, water still made it into their tank. Dweisel’s comment is correct, “Every fuel system needs all the protection available.” It doesn’t matter if your fuel has been refined at the best facility in the world, contamination is possible between transfers. It has been proven, our HPFP’s have issues, so water separation seems like a worth while investment and appears to be a simple item to solve.
Back to filtration:
The stock VW / Mann filter appears to be 7 micron. - any thoughts??
Regardless, if it is less, this would be hard to achieve with a single pass. Again, our HPFP’s seem to be having a tough job with our fuel. Better filtration will not solve the HPFP failures, but it will definitely reduce the risk and possibly prolong the life of the HPFP. This also seems like a worth while investment and appears to be a simple item to solve. Our systems have been designed with critical pressures and flow rates, which, if altered, must be within acceptable parameters.
Here are my car’s fuel system specs, proven by testing with ½ tank fuel, warm spring temperature:
Stock configuration:
“In tank Lift Pump” - 12psi, flows @ 195 litres per hour. (51.5 us gal/ hour)
“Aux. Boost Pump” - 62 psi, measured right at HPFP.
“Return line to tank, before Temperature loop @ idle” - 9 psi, 159 litres per hour. (42 us gal/ hour)
Enjoy the following pictures, showing the added in line supply filtration and filtration, after the HPFP. Those are Racor 400 series filters / separators, mounted under the drivers headlight. Primary is 10 micron, secondary is 2 Micron. Primary has an improved WIF sensor, eliminating the “phantom“ signals of the past. Both bowls have heaters and water drain ports.

.
Racor 400 Series Separators. 10 Micron Primary, 2 Micron Secondary. Heaters, Improved Water in Fuel Sensor and Drains.

.
Mounting Bracket, with Stainless 3/8" lines.

.

.
Filters mounted under drivers headlight, using stock studs. No holes drilled or any alterations to body or frame. Plastic Fender wells removed for Clarity. When the Belly pan is removed, Filters are easy to get to, otherwise, small holes are drilled and plugged in belly / pan to access drain valves.

.
Here is the Filtration set up after HPFP, going back to the tank, showing Differential Pressure Gauges to monitor Filter Condition. This filter has a handy drain valve as well, to monitor contamination from our Famous Aluminum Bore / Soft roller HPFP.

.
Temporary Gauge during testing after Aux. Boost Pump. 62 PSI at manual energizing, idling or 3000 RPM's

.

Here are the fuel system specs, with the added filtration:
“In tank Lift Pump, with primary 10 micron and secondary 2 micron filtration” - 12 psi, flows @ 180.5 litres per hour. (48 us gal/ hour) - 7% decrease in flow, from stock.
“Aux. Boost Pump” - 62 psi, measured right at HPFP. - No change from stock.
“Return line to tank, after HPFP Filtration and after Temperature loop @ idle”- 9 psi, 159 litres per hour. (42 us gal/ hour) - no change from stock.
So the only concern is the 7% reduction in flow from the in tank lift pump, feeding the auxiliary boost pump. This does not mean I have to drive 7% slower, or will use 7% less fuel or will even starve the HPFP. This simply means a 7% reduction in feeding the stock fuel canister, which the Auxiliary boost pump draws from, thus, feeding the HPFP. In testing, results show the return line to tank flows at 9 psi, 159 litres per hour. (42 us gal/ hour) @ idle. The modified filtration system flows @ 180.5 litres per hour. (48 us gal/ hour)
What does all this really mean??
The stock system has 36 litres per hour (9.5 us gal / hour) surplus @ idle, returning to the tank.
The added filtration system has 21.5 litres per hour (6 us gal / hour) surplus @ idle, returning to the tank.
I can’t test pressures and flow rates under load, but road tests have so far been successful. The tank is now less than 1/8 and I have done long WOT runs, up hill with no effect.
For the 3.5 gallons per hour I have lost, I will gladly take the extra 2 Micron filtration and water separation. This also filters the return from the HPFP to the tank. This filter has a handy drain on the bottom to monitor HPFP degradation.
I will update with future tests.
If this interests you, please don’t just try any filters because you found them. Flow rates and pressures must be kept as close to stock as possible. Research flow rates and do your own testing. I would not recommend this project for everyone. I will happily discuss and help.
Negative comments are also appreciated, but the following have already been considered:
1.) Yes this will most likely void the warranty.
2.) 2 holes need to be drilled in the lower fender skirt / belly pan to access water drains.
3.) Heaters will draw 10 amps.
4.) Mounting of a indicator light needs a home on the dash. ( I will drill the blank switches beside the traction control switch)
5.) The filters are in a vulnerable location as far as leaks. A leak may drip onto the tire’s path. A simple catch containment system with a remote drain hose (Tide detergent bottle with a hose) is in the works.
6.) This modification does not seem to put any additional load on the in tank lift pump. It has been stated in past posts, it has a relief valve internally and testing has shown no change in it’s amp draw. There is also simply no change in audible pitch.
Please let us not bicker whether water separation and filtration is important or not. For me, I would rather reduce the risk, than worry about it or criticize others thoughts and beliefs. I have satisfied myself with this modification, more testing will prove it’s worth. I will update as miles add up!! I will post more pictures of the Filters if any one is interested.
The next step is to simplify the Return Filtration circuit. I can now Eliminate the Gauges and add more miles. The Stock Temperature Re-circ. is also on the Chopping block. The heaters in the Racor Bowls will soon take it's place...More testing!!
As far as the HPFP, an Ebay Pump is on the way, for dis assembly and modifications. Many a member has seen these pumps and made comments. It appears better materials are in order - at minimum, a steel liner.
But that is another post.
All the best,
All you need to do now is run it on some crappy US grade D2 with low lubricity to test how long it takes the HPFP to fail terminally. Canada supposedly has 460 micron wear scar fuel.
You also have no basis for the current condition of your existing HPFP on a used TDI?
Still, good luck with your experiments.
If filtration, filtration, filtration still yields a HPFP failure for you... then it's Shame on Bosch X3 for my signature line.

Last edited by Niner; April 22nd, 2012 at 11:46.
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Old April 23rd, 2012, 19:45   #84
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Hello Niner,
Canadian fuel is slightly better than US fuel, however we still have HPFP failures.
Quote:
You also have no basis for the current condition of your existing HPFP on a used TDI?
Still, good luck with your experiments.
Sorry I didn't post this earlier:
The second day I owned the car, (early March), I disassembled the top end of the HPFP to develop a baseline for testing. No damage to the roller and cam was found, but slight scoring on the piston and bore. Car had 50,000km's. I have been inspecting the pump several times over the last few thousand Km's to find no change. The first thousand Km's I found minute amounts of what appeared to be aluminum in my return filter kit. Since then less and less has been found.
http://s1059.photobucket.com/albums/t428/2micron/
The reason for the Filtration additions and tests are to help prolong the HPFP life by helping to eliminate 2 important variables: water and particulate (dirt), not to solve the design issues of the pump.
The filters will not save the pump, but simply reduce the risk of water and dirt and will certainly help to prolong it's life.
I have been experimenting with several failed pumps, look for updates in the pump section.
All the best,
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Old April 23rd, 2012, 20:44   #85
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Even if water is not in the fuel when you purchase it, it can enter your fuel tank as water vapour and condense as a liquid inside the fuel tank on a cold night.

All student pilots (at least I was) are trained have to drain a fuel sample from the fuel tanks of their aircraft as part of their inspection procedure before starting up. There was a bad accident here 13 years ago at a International Girl Guide Jamboaree where an airplane crashed with some Girl Guide Leaders on board. I read the accident report and water in the fuel tanks caused the engine to stall shortly after takeoff.
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Old April 24th, 2012, 06:36   #86
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I read mention of an improved WIF sensor from Racor. Can I find details of that somewhere ?
Any comparisons of Racor, Fleetguard, Stanadyne sensors ?
I'm looking at doing a two color LED indicator.

Thanks
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Old April 24th, 2012, 08:59   #87
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Default Racor RK 30880E

Hello piper109,
Glad to see someone is interested in Water in Fuel!!!
You are looking for a Parker / Racor RK 30880E.
This is the new improved WIF sensor that is proven to be less problematic and gives no "Phantom" readings of the past.
http://www.parker.com/literature/Rac..._April2008.pdf
Any of the filter companies you mention are very good. It really comes down to what is easily available. I don't like to say one is the best.
Racor / Parker is the industry standard in Marine and highway tractors and always available.
Ebay is a fantastic source for the filter heads and sensors.
My kits use Racor only, but only because they are available at any Marine supply. Donaldson filters interchange in a pinch as well.
Love your idea about the LED set up. The above sensor comes with a 1/2-20 thread and a nice O-ring seal for less than $100. It is easy to hook up to any light bulb, buzzer or anything 12 volt, with no special modules or extras. You seem pretty handy, you could easily ad a bung to the bottom of your stock fuel filter canister and thread this in.
Cheap insurance!!
I have had great success with above sensor and racor in general.
All the best,
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Old April 24th, 2012, 09:36   #88
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Well I'm thinking of doing things a little differently.

I have a 1 week old jsw that I want to protect and also keep the warranty.

My plan is to use a kidney circuit by adding two pipes going through the lid of the tank unit, one going close to the bottom of the tank and the other close to the top.

The idea is to use a 12v Facet pump to draw (not pump) fuel through a good filter/water separator and put it back into the tank filtered at 2 microns. Its action is totally separated from the engine setup.

The OEM system would then stay intact and unmodified but I would know that is was drawing in filtered fuel that had been through a water separator. I would simply run the pump for 15-30 mins or so after each fill-up.
Yes it has draw backs and fuel would not be immediately filtered but then this system "should be" completely redundant anyway.

The two color LED would let me know that the separator was operational, changing color in the presence of water.

I could install this setup under the cover outboard of the right hand side of the spare wheel well. How and when to turn it on and off are not yet thought out.

Steve
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Old April 24th, 2012, 10:10   #89
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Isn't the water separator incorporated into the fuel filter housing?

http://www.tdiclub.com/TDIFAQ/TDiFAQ-7.html#b

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/a...uel-filter.htm
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Old April 24th, 2012, 11:11   #90
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Default Great to see someone interested in Water separtion!!!

Hello piper109,
Fantastic ideas and awesome that you want to work on your own new car, altering it to you're satisfaction. Good work!!!
Don't be discouraged by the others who believe this is not worth the effort.
If you add anything to your car and it satisfies and makes you happy, it is worth ten times the effort.
I have had my in tank fuel pump out several times for inspections and will post pictures of it, if it helps you decide where to add in and out line modifications.
To filter to 2 microns, it may be best to do it in 2 stages, (primary 10 micron, secondary 2 micron) prolonging the life of your fine secondary filter.
Sure, run it all the time?? The draw on a small facet pump is low and our HPFP's are always depositing fine contaminants back into the tank.
The return filter kits I have been experimenting with use a VW factory filter with Water Separation that may work in your application.
Great effort and thoughts, continue with your ideas!!
All the best,
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