Manual transmission being phased out, not efficient & slower

[Oberkanone]

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...ission-in-cars

Yet I recently sat in Ferrari's headquarters in Italy and was told, unequivocally, that the new 458 Italia would never see a manual transmission attached to its screaming V-8. The technology was too slow and outdated, the representative said.
That statement was a death rattle -- the skeleton hand gripping the cue-ball knob and shifting into history.

Of the supercars I've driven lately, including the Lamborghini LP 570-4 Superleggera, Lexus LFA, Bentley Continental Supersports and Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG, not one is available with a stick.

[assault14]

i dont like that to much

[manual_tranny]

Originally Posted by Oberkanone

http://http://www.detroitnews.com/ar...ission-in-cars

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Your link wasn't working, but the articlle does exist... Click here to read...

[thaws1981]

I agree I do not like this Idea of the Manual Transmission being phases out. I will agree that computers have the ability make calculations based on attainable data and in this case shift the gears faster then a human. However, the way the automatic transmission shifts through the gears is computer controlled, and a computer system is only as good as its programming. The question is will the automatic transmission shift into the gear you won’t based on the driving conditions. The answer is no, the automatic transmission cannot determine the best gear or the gear shift pattern at all times. Under semi normal driving conditions an automatic transmission will select the correct gear based on inputs that the automobile computer can obtain through driver inputs, speed data, and other data sources. In sudden dynamic situations the computer and the hardware that makes up the automatic transmission may not operate at the same rate, causing drive-ability problems. Furthermore, the automatic transmission may first select a gear that is inappropriate for the specific driving condition, and then re-select a different gear that is the correct gear for the specific driving condition. This re-selecting of gears takes time. Further more, there are specific driving conditions that you the driver may wont to stay in a low or high gear for a time, and not wont the automatic transmission to be shifting out of that gear. One may argue that the automatic transmission allows the driver to manual select a narrow gear range to stay in a gear. This is true, but manually shifting through the gears in an automatic transmission is a bit more difficult. Consequently a lot automatic transmission drivers never use there manually selected gear options. I for one prefer a manual, both for the control and the driving experience. I believe that it is a mistake to eliminate the manual transmission from automobiles. This is especially true, super cars, other performance autos, and utility vehicles. Many of the people who buy these super cars, performance autos, and utility vehicles buy these vehicles for the driving experience. Many times this experience includes a manual transmission. I believe that there will be a large market who will demand a manual transmission to be installed on these automobiles.

[ruking]

This is not to be contrary, but the DSG does exactly what you say it can not do. I will be one of the first to say that it does not always do it like a manual. I also might not like how it actually does get done, but it does get the job done !!!

The other is on VW's anyway a 6 speed manual for TDI's is STANDARD. So in effect, you have got to not only specify the option DSG, you have got to pay EXTRA for it.

[gte824j]

Lets see if we can get this debate going again

http://www.npr.org/2012/03/26/149398...-transmissions

Car Guru: Stop Downshift In Manual Transmissions
Seventy years ago, 70 percent of U.S.-made cars came with a stick shift. The number is less than 9 percent today.
But at least one man is on a quest to reverse that slide.
Eddie Alterman loves automobiles. He's a gear head. He's the top editor at Car and Driver magazine. His whole career, he has watched the sales of cars with stick shifts decline. And when Ferrari failed to offer a manual option for the new 458 Italia, he said, enough's enough. Basta.

The Slipping Stick Shift
Sales of cars manufactured in the U.S. with manual transmissions have declined sharply since 1950.


Source: WardsAuto.com
Credit: Alyson Hurt / NPR


Alterman is making converts one by one. Recently, he gave Julia Espinosa her first lesson in driving a manual transmission, in a high school parking lot. Espinosa says, ever since her uncle regaled her with tales of touring the back roads of England as a young man, she has wanted to learn how to drive a real car. You know, one with a stick.
"So the clutch pedal needs to be depressed completely before it's going to engage? Or you said halfway," Espinosa says before the car stalls.
And stalls. And stalls a third time. But, on the fourth try she gets it.
"There you go! WHOO!" Alterman says. "You did it! Now to get into second gear."
By the time the lesson is over, Espinosa has mastered the basics. She's not ready for the back roads of England yet, but it's a start.
"A great number of people become addicted to stick shifts," says Chris Terry of Ford, who brought the car for the lesson. He says it isn't too much trouble to offer manual transmissions for a small pool of customers.
"The trouble would be if consumers didn't think they were gonna get a choice and that they thought Ford Motor Co. was gonna turn its back on driving enthusiasts," Terry says.
Alterman figures young people in particular should focus more on driving and less on distractions.
"It's about do-it-yourself, it's about having fun in the car, and not doing it through apps or downloading Pandora or anything like that," he says. "It's about actually having a connection to the mechanical part of the car."
But still, the numbers of manual shift cars keep declining.
"In 1940, we sold our first Hydromatic transmission," says GM Engineer Tim Kotlarek. His company introduced the first commercially successful automatic transmission in the U.S.
Kotlarek expects most sports cars will always come with a stick option, but even though he's a car guy, too, he prefers an automatic. Do stick shift enthusiasts think that's lazy?
"Yeah, I am, I'll be the first to admit it," he says, laughing. "But, it's the ease of things, right?"
That, plus, automatics are now as fuel efficient as manuals. And just get stuck in a stop-and-go traffic jam with a manual; that'll suck the joy out of driving a stick for sure.

Gimme A Car That's Cheap, Sporty And 'Green'
Can automakers design hybrid vehicles that appeal to the sports car driver AND the environmentalist?
But Alterman isn't ready to accept a world without manual transmissions.
"I don't want to live in that world, to tell you the truth," he says. "It's a world without guys building treehouses for their kids. It's a world without train sets. It's a world without fun."
So Alterman fights the good fight, armed with a website, some decals, and T-shirts that read, "Save the Manuals."

And here is Alterman's "Save the Manuals" website on C&D:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...l-headquarters

Like me, you may have noticed an alarming paucity of vehicles offering fully manual transmissions. Even sports-car stalwart Ferrari, of gated-shifter fame, isn’t providing a three-pedal option on the new 458 Italia. Equally distressing, I read in the Washington Post that our nation’s hard-texting youth have pronounced driving seriously lame, with only about 30 percent of 16-year-olds having acquired driving licenses as of 2008. I can’t help but think these things are related.
If folks learned to operate the entire car, not just the steering wheel and occasionally the brakes, I’d bet they’d like driving better. If they knew the sense of control imparted by that third pedal, I’d bet they would strive for its mastery. If they knew the excitement that accompanied a perfectly timed heel-toe downshift, I can guarantee they’d be hooked.
You know what we need? We need a crusade. We need to save the manuals! Not only are manual transmissions often more fuel-efficient than their two-pedal counterparts, you also can’t text while operating one. So let’s lobby carmakers to produce more of these things because they’re safer and more frugal, and let’s not tell them that they’re way more fun. Let’s train our offspring in the ancient ways of the stick shift. Let all of us knights of the clutch pedal drive our manual-equipped cars to Washington and pop ’em in front of Barry O’s house.
Won’t you join the cause? —Eddie Alterman

[supton]

I've been trying to maximize my FE lately; and I've been enjoying the stickshift a bit less. Probably because I'm not enjoying the drive particularly much. Sure, with a stickshift I can short-shift, and letting an auto automatically pick the wrong gear is going to drive me bonkers; but driving at 60mph to maximize mpg's is like taking a sedative. Not enough brain cells firing for me to care if I'm rowing gears or not...

[mlemorie]

I have three cars, all of them have 3 pedals (2 of them are dead ATM lol). I search out manuals not only because they are more fun, but they are simpler and more reliable than their fluid controlled counterparts. Granted I would love to have an automatic in a traffic jam, that is the ONLY time I find myself wishing for one. If continuing to drive a manual means that I will never be able to purchase a new car 15-20 years from now then so be it. I have a certain pair of cheeks that the manufacturers can kiss if they think that they know what I want better than me, or if they think they can force me to buy what they want to sell.

[bhtooefr]

IIRC, the DSG actually isn't necessarily sequential, it's just that the programming treats it as sequential. Porsche's version, the PDK, is actually available in single-clutch manual and double-clutch automated versions of the same transmission.

Also, the reason why single-clutch sequential automated gearboxes aren't common in cars... they pretty much universally suck, at any price point. When the DSG first came out, I recall reviews all over the place wondering why supercars didn't have it, because it was many, many times better than single-clutch sequential automated manuals.

There haven't been many cheap cars with SMGs - the only ones I can think of are the MR2 Spyder and the Smart ForTwo in North America, plus the Lupo and A2 3L/1.2 TDI in Europe, and the Gol i-Motion in Brazil. In every case, they've been awful - horrendously slow shifting (like, a drunken 13 year old girl who's never driven before could shift faster), gear selection being all over the place, etc., etc.

Even the more expensive stuff, like BMW's SMGs, they tend to suck at selecting gears and shifting when at anything other than WOT. And, the supercars are known for being horrendously brutal when shifting. WOT, they're great, though, apparently - but they don't shift quite as quickly as a dual-clutch box, as the dual-clutch box just has to rev-match and switch clutches, no shifting.

And, a dual-clutch can shift quite a bit quicker than a conventional manual, keeping power to the rear wheels. The real racers are running single-clutch sequential manuals if their series doesn't allow dual-clutch, and in many cases dual-clutch when it does.

That said, conventional manual clutch, manually shifted (whether they're sequential or H-pattern) transmissions are far cheaper to maintain, weigh less, and cost less to build. Then again, the only one of those three that affects the modern American consumer is the last one, because they don't maintain cars, and don't care how heavy they are. As for efficiency, that one can be debated - most test cycles are driven in a fixed shift points manner on manual transmissions, unless you have an upshift light to tell you otherwise (that's the real reason for upshift lights, for when the manufacturer doesn't like the EPA's shift points). A properly driven manual tends to be more efficient than automated transmissions of any kind, even CVTs (which are lossy, but can get the engine in its most efficient range if set up right).

Oh, and just because you can't skip-shift in a sequential box doesn't mean you have to engage the clutch before you land on your desired gear...

[German_1er_diesel]

Originally Posted by bhtooefr

There haven't been many cheap cars with SMGs

In Europe, most cheap cars use SMGs as the automatic option. Toyota's entry-level Aygo has an optional 5-speed automated manual, as will the upcoming up automatic transmission version, as do many entry-level Fiats, PSA products, Opels...

In these classes, automatic transmissions account for much less than 5% of sales, if they were more expensive, it would be even less. A torque converter box would be more expensive, a dual clutch box would be too. The (minuscule) market for 2-pedal cheap cars wouldn't tolerate the cost increase.

Even PSA's high tech diesel hybrid system is built around a single clutch automated manual.

[Ski in NC]

Also, the dsg only can have the next gear "ready" if it correctly anticipates which way the shifting is going. Rapidly changing driving conditions and things like skipping gears not its forte. It can not look down the road to see what's coming.

[German_1er_diesel]

Originally Posted by Ski in NC

Also, the dsg only can have the next gear "ready" if it correctly anticipates which way the shifting is going. Rapidly changing driving conditions and things like skipping gears not its forte. It can not look down the road to see what's coming.

That's what I noticed in a Porsche 911 with PDK: Normal city driving would confuse the hell out of the transmission.

[gmcjetpilot]

Originally Posted by German_1er_diesel

That's what I noticed in a Porsche 911 with PDK: Normal city driving would confuse the hell out of the transmission.

Give me a break..... and why would you skip gears? The DSG is a joy to drive and you can always put it in manual. Don't get me wrong I have great memories of my '69 Camaro SS with a four speed..... However for driving every day, the NEW autos are very good and give up only a tiny bit in efficiency to a manual (if you are a good manual driver).

With that said manuals did make a come back with the gas prices, as they tend to get better mileage than traditional autos. However that has changed with the direct shifting dual clutch autos. Also in general manuals across all brands are $1000 to $1200 cheaper on the sticker, which is a plus for manuals. The jury is still out on the lifetime cost of maintenance between the two types of trans, DSG vs. Manual. The VW dual mass dampened flywheel on manuals has been an issue. As far as DSG oil change, look at YouTube, it's not difficult. You can make the "special tool" for cheap and borrow a VAGCOM to get transmission temp. It looks simple to me if you have the basic tools, jack stands...

As far as maintenance, that remains to be seen.... I have got over 180,000 to 220,000 miles on my Acura's (all solenoid shift), when I sold them in good driving condition. I have also put almost that much on a Manual Subaru..... I like both, but for a daily driver the new DSG type autos are great. If they did not exist, I would not hesitate to get a manual.

[bhtooefr]

The DMF has been an issue on the DSGs, too, though. So, I'd say that's a wash, with the advantage that the older manuals can easily be retrofitted with a SMF, and it can be done on the newer models.

[supton]

Does the DSG hold a gear? I had a rental Camry, and if you stepped on it, despite being in "sport" or "manual" mode, it would still drop down a gear. Or two.

I guess as I lower my anual driving a fluid change every 40k isn't so bad. [Dirt driveway precludes crawling under the car. Or doing much of anything on my car, really.] But that would still be 6 fluid changes to the two that I've done thus far on my car.