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TDI Conversions Discussions on converting non TDIs into TDIS. More general items can be answered better in other sections. This is ideal for issues that don't have an overlap and are very special to swaping engines.

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Old February 19th, 2012, 08:05   #1
oil_me
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Default '91 Audi 80 quattro M-TDI

It's time to get my project on the pages. A BN VW TDI long block(AHU) came up for sale in '08. I scarfed it up being a diesel only guy with the intent of putting it in some kind of undetermined project.

I've been swapping drivetrains in and out of VW's for 35+ years; the bodies get rusted out or crashed and then it's find another good body & repeat. I've had been exclusive to VW's all this time save for 2 Chevy trucks ; a '58 Apache and a '71 plow truck, had over 20 beetles, 4 squarebacks, fastback, 1 '65 kombi, 3 german rabbits, loved my diesel vanagon, with my favorite cars being the 4 Dashers.
I would put 250 to 300k on each and really preferred the VW B1 inline setup. Loved the German/A2s as well. The '85 Jetta diesel was the best car VW ever made IMO; retired one @420k, 44 mpg every tank. I was never interested in Audis as they were too $$$ and had way too many accessories, too much $tatu$/comfort/complexity compared to a VW. I took my son to Germany in '98, we visited all the car factories and auto museums we could in 3 weeks, one of which was the Audi factory in Ingolstadt. Unbelieveably complex; beautiful. We did the tour 2x. Back then a customer could watch their car built and drive it out the door. Anyway like I said being a diesel only guy, I always dreamed of an AWD diesel built simply.
I assembled a '99.5 Jetta TDI in '08 that needed a motor, and did a lot of mods to it; 149hp/268lb/ft, gets 48 mpg like clockwork. Even with the Shine suspension it's just bland & Honda-ish, handles like her a** is too fat, I'm sorry to say. My B4 Passat TDI; another VW treasure; I adored, but like all VWs it started to rot.
FF to 2010 when I discovered the 01A trans with its universality of engine choices; the Audi B3 with its inherent rust-proof, safe, innovative/timeless body, the existence of Motorgeek, and the project was born.
In 2008, I found a factory mechanical 12mm AGK TDI injection pump from a VW LT at a Bosch repair center in Berlin and my GF's 82 year old aunt brought it home for me via Zlinn, Czech Republic. I had it rebuilt again by Giles Gallie @ Performance Diesel Injection and set up for my application.


Audi B3s have become very affordable and I bought my first one an '89 80q last fall from a
fellow Geek. I got it running well, then found the project car in CA.
A 1991 80q http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.p...lacier+blue+80

I've always done my own car work and have never had a garage; this time I have a shed roof kind of space and an old pool shed for cover as well. Working outdoors adds a sporting nature to the challenge of the swap! Thanks all who've put up with my questions and requests.
I want to make the car simple to maintain so the power steering and ABS is nixed as well as the driver electric window changed to manual regulator. The other list of parts includes JH shifter, EFI solid shifter linkage, intercooler & tubing, 034 Delrin CA bushings, 034 solid subframe mounts, fuel filter bracket, new Bilsteins HDs, A4 v6 trans., Urq rear diff., solid rear diff mount, rear driveshafts w/ 108 inners for the Urq diff., Spec. Stage 1 clutch & pressure plate, TDI starter, K14 turbo. I'm using stock 4 cylinder parts for the radiator & motor mounts.
One of the major parts to this swap is creating a 4cyl quattro subframe that only exists in EU.
I've decided to use stock 4cylinder mounts which are part of the subframe on B3 4cyl. cars. I cut the engine mounting "tabs" from a 4 cylinder subframe and am having them welded them onto a 5cyl quattro subframe. (I haven't a welder)

4 cylinder subframe

5 cylinder quattro subframe

Measure twice ; weld once.


Revised subframe (crappy pic, sorry)

First step on the new motor was changing the oil pan. I had 2 choices; stamped steel, or A4 1.8t cast aluminum and I went with the steel. A little less capacity but more road hazard proof; a problem where I live.


I used an oil pan windage baffle integrated in the gasket for the bottom end. Last year I parted my B4 Passat TDI and kept the 1Z motor/trans. I'm using all the ancillary stuff from the old over to the new. This ran beautifully with 215k when I retired it



I'm painting the tin along with the "new" subframe with Urethane moisture curing paint & primer from http://www.masterseriescoatings.com/index/ recommended by a restorer.


The injection pump is on , pump timing set. Stock 80 2.0 flywheel with spec Stage 1 clutch installed.
The engine is ready to go in at this point.

There are many other other details to come. A slightly more complete thread is on MotorGeek:http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.p...574460#p574460
Rich
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'91 blue Audi 80Q M-TDI 47mpg http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45645/
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=344436
'99.5 black Jetta TDI, 200k, '02 ALH, 11mm IP, RC3+, T4/.216/Frank06, PDliftpump, Racepipe, OMI, 2.5 SS exh., lower IC , Shine, Panzerplate,52/38/47mpg
'89 black Audi 80Q 27mpg

Last edited by oil_me; September 7th, 2014 at 07:46.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 08:07   #2
oil_me
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Reserved for more input.
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'91 blue Audi 80Q M-TDI 47mpg http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45645/
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=344436
'99.5 black Jetta TDI, 200k, '02 ALH, 11mm IP, RC3+, T4/.216/Frank06, PDliftpump, Racepipe, OMI, 2.5 SS exh., lower IC , Shine, Panzerplate,52/38/47mpg
'89 black Audi 80Q 27mpg
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Old February 19th, 2012, 08:14   #3
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Cool project!

Curious to hear how the M-TDI performs for you -- economy, performance and smoke..
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Old February 19th, 2012, 09:06   #4
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I want to stay well under the engine and ip's maximum performance potential to preserve it for the long run. I'm acutely aware of the debate between the "mech." and the "elec." camps regarding controls on the pump. You know what I mean I'm sure. My quest for simplicity leads only to this pump, come what may. I have 20 years experience with IDI diesels and crave and admire their tombstone reliability. I've rebuilt 2 IDI pumps completely and successfully, but TDI pumps have higher internal pressures and are trickier to set up. This pump was tuned by Giles. He's worked out mods that are worth every cent. The 12mm head puts out a larger amount in the same window as a smaller head so in theory I need boost as early as possible. I don't know if this IP has a "low smoke" feature for emissions or not. It's wait & see. I have 2 K-14 turbos, one from an AAZ and one from a 1.6 Ecodiesel.The Eco K14 has smaller wheels, different wastegate opening specs.; we'll see which works best. I need a boost gauge and a simple boost controller also.
Rich
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'91 blue Audi 80Q M-TDI 47mpg http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45645/
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=344436
'99.5 black Jetta TDI, 200k, '02 ALH, 11mm IP, RC3+, T4/.216/Frank06, PDliftpump, Racepipe, OMI, 2.5 SS exh., lower IC , Shine, Panzerplate,52/38/47mpg
'89 black Audi 80Q 27mpg

Last edited by oil_me; February 19th, 2012 at 13:38. Reason: brainlock
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Old February 19th, 2012, 18:59   #5
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There are quite a few guys in ny with mtdi's experience. I have seen them on this forum and more often on vwdiesel.net. I am also sluggishly working on an mtdi project. My goal is to make my cummins 4bt pump work. Should be spot on with pressures I just need to work out the governor. I have already worked out the pump sprocket. Cept the timing belt cover is a real pain to keep from flexing out towards the belts. Good luck on your project though. I love the idea of a simple awd diesel.
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Old February 20th, 2012, 05:51   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoabeats View Post
There are quite a few guys in ny with mtdi's experience. I have seen them on this forum and more often on vwdiesel.net. .....................
vwdiesel.net. is where I started with the m-tdi idea. There are some dogged souls on that site who did all the experimentation & research to bring it to the light of day. Kudos to those guys.
David Marshall (Go Faster) & Tintin are the 2 individuals who introduced the AGK pump to my attention.http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread...=167583&page=2
Thanks for the input and I wish you all the luck and good fortune you need for your project as well.
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'91 blue Audi 80Q M-TDI 47mpg http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45645/
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=344436
'99.5 black Jetta TDI, 200k, '02 ALH, 11mm IP, RC3+, T4/.216/Frank06, PDliftpump, Racepipe, OMI, 2.5 SS exh., lower IC , Shine, Panzerplate,52/38/47mpg
'89 black Audi 80Q 27mpg

Last edited by oil_me; February 20th, 2012 at 05:53.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 19:58   #7
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The car's been on the road since September and I've had all the updates over on MotorGeek http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?t=45645 for the mostly Audi content and did not have the time to post on both, sorry.
Here's a picture of the car today.

We have about 8" of snow from 2 recent storms and it's been fun. The engine compartment;






The glow plug relay fits where the fuel pump relay was. I had to run two wires for the temp sensor and the GP light and I used the now unused ABS light for that. I used the "O" terminal on the back of the fusebox that is a large spade terminal that connects internally to the relay. This is the intended GP output for the turbodiesel version of this car. I used the ABS 4.0 battery wire plugged on instead. That brought the hot GP source to the engine comp. via the ABS plug without running new wires; the other wires were in place. It works perfectly; the car started without a single misfire or smoke cloud @ 0 the other day. I switched to a 16" VW Dasher steering wheel for better leverage with the manual steering rack.

I swapped on an Audi turn signal cancel tang as they're in different positions and the horn ring for a spring loaded button from the Audi wheel. As far as mileage the past three tanks were; 39 mpg, 41.9 mpg, and 39 mpg. In that period of time I've swapped the turbo 2x and played with the pump timing about 8 different times; so when I leave the adjustments alone for a time; I'll see what's consistent. As I said before there's other details on the MG site also. This car is my daily driver and I love it. I'll work on the intercooler install when I can get back over to the workshed.
Rich
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'91 blue Audi 80Q M-TDI 47mpg http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45645/
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=344436
'99.5 black Jetta TDI, 200k, '02 ALH, 11mm IP, RC3+, T4/.216/Frank06, PDliftpump, Racepipe, OMI, 2.5 SS exh., lower IC , Shine, Panzerplate,52/38/47mpg
'89 black Audi 80Q 27mpg

Last edited by oil_me; January 8th, 2013 at 15:09. Reason: Correction
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Old January 7th, 2013, 03:17   #8
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Love it can't wait to see this thing run. I've wanted a quattro tdi for years now.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 04:10   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v8 coupe View Post
Love it can't wait to see this thing run. I've wanted a quattro tdi for years now.
The car's been on the road since September and runs beautifully. It's noisier than my '99 eTDI but I do love the sound of fuel exploding. A symphonic cacophony.
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'91 blue Audi 80Q M-TDI 47mpg http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45645/
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=344436
'99.5 black Jetta TDI, 200k, '02 ALH, 11mm IP, RC3+, T4/.216/Frank06, PDliftpump, Racepipe, OMI, 2.5 SS exh., lower IC , Shine, Panzerplate,52/38/47mpg
'89 black Audi 80Q 27mpg

Last edited by oil_me; January 12th, 2013 at 09:31.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 18:12   #10
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Here's a big update. Back in June, I installed the inter-cooler finally and plumbed it all into the stock airbox. I readjusted the pump timing to the optimal setting of .80mm lift. It was after I set the timing that I committed a mortal sin.
POP QUIZ A**HOLE;
WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU FORGET THE 1/2 DRIVE T-BAR ON THE CRANK BOLT, THEN GO OUT IN THE MORNING TO START IT?
Well it started with a clang; the front mount captured the wrench; it ran for a few seconds until the bolt unscrewed all the way out and the crank pulley fell off. I added insult to injury by trying to start it. Twice. When it didn't start I knew what happened.. AAAAAHHHH. Oh; that sinking, expensive feeling that quickly and thankfully turns to numbness. I just got in my other car and went to work. I couldn't make myself look at it for a week. I thought killed the bastard. I pulled the head to find 2 bent valves, 3 broken lifters. In spite of the easy repair, I opted to buy a new head from ID Parts. It came loaded; with all studs for the exhaust + tensioner stud. New head gasket, head bolts, crank bolt (lol) and now I am back where I started. Needless to say; I'll never use a breaker bar to turn the engine; I use a 3/8 drive ratchet now for all the bolts in the pump timing adjustment so it's not possible to leave it on as I have to switch sockets for each bolt.

Evil done. The #1 exhaust valve was was fully open as you can see the dent is dead center in the lifter (most damaging position)



Piston ghost impression



Cylinder head box inspection



Crank Yank



Car is reassembled




I clearanced the side of a 20v airbox top to change the intake position. I screwed a 2" electrical conduit box connector in with a locknut on the back to hold it in place. It worked slick.



I installed Acetron solid bushings in the front control arm. It replaces an 034 Delrin mount that lasted 4 months. It was badly clunking with fore and aft movement; on accel & decel as well as large low speed bumps. The Acetrons were designed with a thrust washer to minimize wear as well as being harder, made with graphite, etc. http://forums.quattroworld.com/9080/msgs/39119.phtml



The last 2 tanks of fuel were 46.8 mpg and 45.5 mpg. It runs excellent. I've put 11,000 miles on the car since last September and it's my only DD at this time. I'm still working to reduce and minimize vibration; I replaced the solid poly(duh) rear diff mount recently with a solid rubber one. I must install a braided flex pipe after the down pipe in place of the hollowed out cat as well. Another plan is to bolt the subframe balance weight from my '96 Passat TDI somewhere on my car to help reduce vibration resonance in certain rpm ranges.
I'm more content with the car as of late.
Rich
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'91 blue Audi 80Q M-TDI 47mpg http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45645/
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=344436
'99.5 black Jetta TDI, 200k, '02 ALH, 11mm IP, RC3+, T4/.216/Frank06, PDliftpump, Racepipe, OMI, 2.5 SS exh., lower IC , Shine, Panzerplate,52/38/47mpg
'89 black Audi 80Q 27mpg
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Old September 7th, 2014, 07:23   #11
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This is an overdue update. The car has 20k miles since the original swap. I purchased a proper awd 01A TDI transmission from Frans back in February of this year and just completed the installation. The difference in the gearing is miraculous. Each gear has a much broader range of useable power. The nasty, annoying vibration is now unnoticeable. I have to put some miles on it to get mileage figures. The previous V6 gasser trans. had a best of 47.5 mpg. I'm hoping for low to mid fifties. The new driveability is more important though. It feels like driving my former Passat TDI. More details are here:http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45645&p=706413#p706413
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'91 blue Audi 80Q M-TDI 47mpg http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45645/
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=344436
'99.5 black Jetta TDI, 200k, '02 ALH, 11mm IP, RC3+, T4/.216/Frank06, PDliftpump, Racepipe, OMI, 2.5 SS exh., lower IC , Shine, Panzerplate,52/38/47mpg
'89 black Audi 80Q 27mpg
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