jkowalski
Veteran Member
Would it be worth putting in a separate water separator, with a drain on it?
Has anyone did this, or thought about it? Where would you mount it?
Has anyone did this, or thought about it? Where would you mount it?
Water Separator
- Thread starter jkowalski
- Start date
DanG144
Top Post Dawg
I think it is a good idea.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=3627195#post3627195 for some of my thoughts on the subject.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=3627195#post3627195 for some of my thoughts on the subject.
dweisel
Top Post Dawg
Better fuel filtration with an added water separator would definately be a good idea. One of the main problems to overcome is the NO room for installation of the new filter system. I worked on finding room for a CAT High Effecientcy filter and an additional CAT water separator. I did solve the NO room problem by using below CAT filter combination. These two CAT filters fit easily under the hood if placed correctly.You would have to do some design work to construct a custom bracket,but that would not be too tough. Sadly both our 09's had hpfp failures,so this is as far as I got on that project.
09 thru 2012 CR1's are totally out of the question for me at this point in time. I guess I'll just have to wait atleast a couple of years to see if the CR2's are somewhat bullet proof. I truely hope they are.
09 thru 2012 CR1's are totally out of the question for me at this point in time. I guess I'll just have to wait atleast a couple of years to see if the CR2's are somewhat bullet proof. I truely hope they are.
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DanG144
Top Post Dawg
The Cummins FleetGuard Filter Separators are rated better than that CAT unit, I have been told.
95% Free water and 95% emulsified water separation for the FS series by FleetGuard. Do you know what the rating is for the Cat filter separator?
You can also get a Water In Fuel alarm hooked up if you wish.
95% Free water and 95% emulsified water separation for the FS series by FleetGuard. Do you know what the rating is for the Cat filter separator?
You can also get a Water In Fuel alarm hooked up if you wish.
Joe_Meehan
Top Post Dawg
My 1976 Diesel Rabbit had a drain on the bottom of the fuel filter. I seem to remember that the OEM version had it as well, but at least some of the current models/years lack that feature.
DanG144
Top Post Dawg
There is a huge difference in efficiency in a modern designed filter separator and a simple drain on the bottom of the fuel filter.
Here's the rub, how lucky do you feel? Install one and I bet your chances of getting a fail HPFP covered are pretty much nil. I would leave my fuel system intact until after the warranty.
DanG144
Top Post Dawg
This is a definite consideration.
Since I am wanting my engine and fuel system to last 360 kmiles, not the warranteed 36kmiles, I will take my chances.
By US law (I have been told) they have to show the modification caused damage. Most light diesel truck dealers still honor the warrantee with additional fuel filters installed. Of course some do put up a fuss.
If you are going to lose sleep over it, don't do it.
I am losing sleep because I have not done it yet - so I will do it, and soon.
Joe_Meehan
Top Post Dawg
Very true, but I have never had a problem in the 10 years I have had my TDI. There may well be more of a problem with some of the newer, more complex models.
DanG144
Top Post Dawg
I have only ever found a tiny amount of water in the bottom of my filter, as well - no problem. This was on standard VW filters or the Cat 2 micron 1R 0750 filter - not reknowned for water separation ability.
But two acquaintances have had Common Rail fuel systems destroyed in the last few months, by water in fuel.
The issue, as I see it, is that on an ALH or PD engine water intrusion is not usually catastrophic. It very often is catastrophic on a Common Rail. I simply cannot afford to have it happen.
So I will do all I can to prevent water reaching the HPFP.
But two acquaintances have had Common Rail fuel systems destroyed in the last few months, by water in fuel.
The issue, as I see it, is that on an ALH or PD engine water intrusion is not usually catastrophic. It very often is catastrophic on a Common Rail. I simply cannot afford to have it happen.
So I will do all I can to prevent water reaching the HPFP.
MayorDJQ
Top Post Dawg
How was it proven that water destroyed your aquaintences' HPFPs?
DanG144
Top Post Dawg
It was not proven. No courts were involved.
Both owners had operational problems, low power, flashing lights, CEL's and went to the dealers.
The dealers showed the fuel filter to them, about half full of water; one had a rust line in the canister as well.
Then they replaced their fuel system, on VW's dime.
Everything I have read does support that severe scuffing of HPFP and injectors WILL happen when water ingestion occurs.
Do you doubt that water will destroy a Common Rail Fuel system?
Both owners had operational problems, low power, flashing lights, CEL's and went to the dealers.
The dealers showed the fuel filter to them, about half full of water; one had a rust line in the canister as well.
Then they replaced their fuel system, on VW's dime.
Everything I have read does support that severe scuffing of HPFP and injectors WILL happen when water ingestion occurs.
Do you doubt that water will destroy a Common Rail Fuel system?
MayorDJQ
Top Post Dawg
"Proven" may have been the wrong word. "Determined" would have been better.
Either way, half a filter housing of water would convince me. Hopefully they're not buying fuel from the same station anymore.
Either way, half a filter housing of water would convince me. Hopefully they're not buying fuel from the same station anymore.
DanG144
Top Post Dawg
One got the bad fuel in coastal SC. The other in Florida.
They were not from their local refueling stations.
I do not think that it can not happen to me at my favorite refueling station; I think it makes it less likely, but it does not provide a guarantee.
They were not from their local refueling stations.
I do not think that it can not happen to me at my favorite refueling station; I think it makes it less likely, but it does not provide a guarantee.
torqueit
Veteran Member
Dan,
Do you think the extra filter that you're considering would've helped with fuel as contaminated as the one that you must mentioned (filter half full of water)?
Do you think the extra filter that you're considering would've helped with fuel as contaminated as the one that you must mentioned (filter half full of water)?
DanG144
Top Post Dawg
Yes, I do.
The filter setup that I am going to use should hold at least 14 ounces of water before breaking through to the final filter. Two filter separators, large ones for a passenger car. A 7.5" 20 micron fuel filter/separator then a 9.7" 7 micron fuel filter/separator with WIF alarm, then the large Caterpillar 2 micron 1R 0750 fuel filter. The CAT 2 micron fuel filter alone has more room for water than the OEM filter.
I am toying with the idea of verifying the water holding capability, since I have extra fuel pumps and extra filter setups and alarm modules laying around. Time gets short in the winter for me, though. I keep wanting to go to bed when it gets dark. Also very little time before my winter GTG - lots to do.
Of course any fuel/water separator system can be overcome.
BUT, it will warn me with a red WIF LED in the cabin when any water is detected in the second water separator. If I wish, I can use TWO different fuel/water separators that EACH have a Water In Fuel alarm. This will add about $75 to the cost, but would warn me when the first filter/fuel/water separator detected water.
I intend for the driver to be able to drain the water separators on the side of the road - similar to what pilots use on small planes. Again - I need to spend some more time developing the drain tool.
The filter setup that I am going to use should hold at least 14 ounces of water before breaking through to the final filter. Two filter separators, large ones for a passenger car. A 7.5" 20 micron fuel filter/separator then a 9.7" 7 micron fuel filter/separator with WIF alarm, then the large Caterpillar 2 micron 1R 0750 fuel filter. The CAT 2 micron fuel filter alone has more room for water than the OEM filter.
I am toying with the idea of verifying the water holding capability, since I have extra fuel pumps and extra filter setups and alarm modules laying around. Time gets short in the winter for me, though. I keep wanting to go to bed when it gets dark. Also very little time before my winter GTG - lots to do.
Of course any fuel/water separator system can be overcome.
BUT, it will warn me with a red WIF LED in the cabin when any water is detected in the second water separator. If I wish, I can use TWO different fuel/water separators that EACH have a Water In Fuel alarm. This will add about $75 to the cost, but would warn me when the first filter/fuel/water separator detected water.
I intend for the driver to be able to drain the water separators on the side of the road - similar to what pilots use on small planes. Again - I need to spend some more time developing the drain tool.
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Engineers<3Diesel
Veteran Member
Have you done any mapping on the fuel pressure after the lift pump? Interested to see what that pressure is between the lift pump and the stock filter. Also interested to see what pressure drop occurs due to an after market filtration system is put in play - i.e. would an additional electric pump need to be used to keep pressure the same at the stock filter.
I'm interested in installing a water separator, just haven't had the time to find a decent setup and look at these pressure differences.
I'm interested in installing a water separator, just haven't had the time to find a decent setup and look at these pressure differences.
DanG144
Top Post Dawg
I am going to answer this in my own thread.
Improved Filtration Water Separation Water in fuel alarm for PD and Common Rail.
I do have some pressure information.
Improved Filtration Water Separation Water in fuel alarm for PD and Common Rail.
I do have some pressure information.
Joe_Meehan
Top Post Dawg
True, but it works for me. The only time I have had a problem was the time I was camping at Yellow Stone park and the BP station was pumping mostly water into my Diesel Rabbit. The drain did its job and I was able to continue my trip after just a couple of drains.
DanG144
Top Post Dawg
Yes, that would be sufficient for a diesel rabbit, or my old John Deere. Your car simply shut off, and you had to get the water out, right?
That would probably suffice for my PD as well, and for your ALH or other old style rotary injection pump.
I do not think the common rail engines would fare as well, hence this thread and my own, and others. Other common rail owners and producers (Duramax, Ford, Cummins) found that they were having expensive problems, and started improving their fuel supply systems, going to finer filters and water removal. This has greatly improved reliability and reduced maintenance costs for them.
That would probably suffice for my PD as well, and for your ALH or other old style rotary injection pump.
I do not think the common rail engines would fare as well, hence this thread and my own, and others. Other common rail owners and producers (Duramax, Ford, Cummins) found that they were having expensive problems, and started improving their fuel supply systems, going to finer filters and water removal. This has greatly improved reliability and reduced maintenance costs for them.
torqueit
Veteran Member
Thanks for all you've done on this. I'm watching this thread carefully and may choose to apply this mod to my vehicle once it's out of power train warranty. I love the car but hate the idea that one batch of bad fuel could = catastrophe.
dweisel
Top Post Dawg
Thats what I've always said about the 1st generation VW CR tdi's after having two hpfp failures. LOVE the car,but HATE the fuel system. Hopefully the 2nd generation CR's will be improved and somewhat bullet proof. Only time will tell and until then,I will not own a car with a VW CR.