Clean Diesel DPF Data Collection Thread

whiplash willy

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2012 4-Door Golf TDI 6MT w/NAV & Sunroof
MemberName: Whiplash Willy
Model Year: 2011
Model: TDI Jetta Sedan
Tranny: DSG
Miles: 5,475
Oil Ash Volume: 0 ml
Oil Type: Whatever VW Put In From Factory
Avrg. MPG: 34 MPG
Comments: Most of my driving is City and Backroads. Regens seem to occur every 200-300 miles.



I don't know why it shows 0.0 Successful Regens in Group 101...My regens seem to occur every 200 - 300 miles...
 

tdi90hp

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2011 Golf TDI 6 speed(gone but NEVER forgotten)
2010 Jetta Sportwagen
118k miles
Just did the timing belt.

08:32:44 Group 101: Diesel Particle Filter
0 /min Engine Speed (G28)
0.0 Emerg. Regenerat. current Duration
0.0 Emerg. Regenerat. Time since Start
0.0 Successful Regenerations
08:32:44 Group 105: Diesel Particle Filter
00000000 Bin. Bits
2.0 Requested Regenerations
6.0°C Temperature
0.0 (no units)
08:32:44 Group 106: Diesel Particle Filter
Fuel Consumption since Regeneration
Driven Distance since Regeneration
Time elapsed since Regeneration
08:27:53 Group 108: Diesel Particle Filter
120 ml Particle Filter Oil Ash Volume
Particle Filter Carbon Mass (spec.)
Particle Filter Carbon Mass (act.)
08:27:53 Group 240: Last Regen
9.2 l Fuel Consumption Since last Regen
170 km Mileage Since last Regen
180.0 Time elapsed since Regeneration
08:28:29 Group 241: DPF Soot load
120 ml Particle Filter Oil Ash Volume
6.0 Soot Load(g) Calculated
0.0 Soot Load(g) Measured
nice to hear from a high miler....can you give us some details on how the car has been(maintenance....repairs....etc...) and what your estimate of the balance of life for you dpf??
 

DanG144

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Not my car.

I did the TB for the owner for the learning experience. I also tested out some CR TB tools for a tool builder. TB is just as easy as any other. No problem.

He does usually change the oil here, so I see him quite often. Very little except preventive maintenance (DSG), and recalls.

He does have one rare but recurring issue, it dies in heavy traffic when turning corners and downshift or upshifting when the wind is out of the Northeast... or some such.

He plans to keep the car for 500kmiles or more.

He wants to talk to me about fuel filtration and perhaps a kidney loop oil filter.

I would expect the DPF to last 300 kmiles, unless there is a failure in the control system.
 

MacBuckeye

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For the record, my DPF failed at 17K miles and VW can't tell me why, they're claiming it was simply defective.
Hard to tell why yours failed so quickly. Hopefully VW covered it without any issues. I'm hopeful we will see the 250k-300k mile range on one DPF.
Not thrilled about spending the money to have a new one installed. By then I'll have saved up enough dinero for it... :p
 

MacBuckeye

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I don't know why it shows 0.0 Successful Regens in Group 101...My regens seem to occur every 200 - 300 miles...
Your car should have Castrol LL03 507 oil. MAKE SURE your dealer uses this when you take your car in for the 10K oil changes.
This has always read 0 for me as well. I don't think this field is really active in VAGCOM. It would be cool if it kept track of successful regens. I'll add your data later today. Thanks for posting. Enjoy your new TDI!! BTW.... you may want to download the newer version of VAGCOM.
 

King Crimson

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Hard to tell why yours failed so quickly. Hopefully VW covered it without any issues. I'm hopeful we will see the 250k-300k mile range on one DPF.
Not thrilled about spending the money to have a new one installed. By then I'll have saved up enough dinero for it... :p
Well, the good news is...even running with 10, 12, or even 20% blend of BIO diesel on a daily basis (which wasn't the case) wouldn't cause a DPF failure so early (@17k). So I have to go by the dealers word that it was defective.

A read somewhere that the average life expectancy of these DPFs is 140k, so you'd better start saving up your dineros earlier. Hopefully by then there will be other options but I doubt it.
 

whiplash willy

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Your car should have Castrol LL03 507 oil. MAKE SURE your dealer uses this when you take your car in for the 10K oil changes.
This has always read 0 for me as well. I don't think this field is really active in VAGCOM. It would be cool if it kept track of successful regens. I'll add your data later today. Thanks for posting. Enjoy your new TDI!! BTW.... you may want to download the newer version of VAGCOM.
Thanks for the heads up, I will be opting out of the "Give Yourself An Aneurism Worrying If The VW Dealer Did Your Service Correctly Maintenance Program" and doing my own oil changes!

I thought I saw other posts here where users had that field populated. Maybe it is the VAGCOM version, I will try updating it and seeing if that helped. I figured it was either that or the Sedan's Gimped electronics, but you have a JSW...
 

Jack Frost

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We don't know at what level of ash might lead to the soot load calculation to exceed a maximum level (IIRC 45 grams) where regeneration is not possible.

This is my understanding of what happens. The DPF collects both ash and soot. As soot accumulates when the car is run, it can be oxidized via regeneration.
From what I understand, the DPF collects only soot and the ash are the incombustible components of that soot that remain after a regeneration has oxidized away its carbon components.

In other words, can ash come about if soot didn't exist? I myself have never seen ash where soot didn't exist before.

If that is true, then the DPF filter's life will be decreased by any driving style that results in soot production. Those driving styles would be cold starts, heavy acceleration, and engine lugging.
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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From what I understand, the DPF collects only soot and the ash are the incombustible components of that soot that remain after a regeneration has oxidized away its carbon components.

In other words, can ash come about if soot didn't exist? I myself have never seen ash where soot didn't exist before.

If that is true, then the DPF filter's life will be decreased by any driving style that results in soot production. Those driving styles would be cold starts, heavy acceleration, and engine lugging.
Maybe its symantics but the diesel particulate filter collects soot and ash.

Engine oil an diesel fuel contain ash forming material. If the fuel and oil that enters the cylinders are completely reduced to non-combustible material, there would be no soot produced to be collected by the DPF. The only material left would be the ash residue in the fuel and oil which would still collect in the DPF.

Soot is the agglomerations of particles of carbon impregnated with "tar," formed in the incomplete combustion of carbonaceous material. [ASTM D1356 REV A-73]. Ash is the material left after material is heated until the matter is reduced to mineral residue.

So driving style / conditions (IMHO, fuel economy is a good proxy for such), will affect the volume of soot that needs to be combusted in the DPF and the ash buildup. But the ash buildup also depends on other factors such as the ash content of the fuel and engine oil and the amount engine oil usage. For example, if there are two identical cars with the same driving style, conditions and so forth but one uses lower ash oil and the other uses a higher ash oil, the soot produced should virtually be the same but the car using higher ash oil would see higher ash accumulation rates.

So, yes ash does comes about whether soot exists or not.:D It's inherent in diesel fuel and engine oil. ASTM D482 is a test method for determing ash content in fuel and oil.

So, yes driving style / conditions will affect the ash build up and soot load in the DPF because more / less enigne oil and diesel fuel enters the cylinders but not necessarily because more soot is produced.
 

Elfnmagik

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But it does stand to reason that, when folks are out to break in CR's by blowing them out all the time, there's gonna be an increased accumulation of soot in the DPF.
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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But it does stand to reason that, when folks are out to break in CR's by blowing them out all the time, there's gonna be an increased accumulation of soot in the DPF.
Yes, more soot will be produced because there's is likely to be more incomplete combustion and more fuel, oil and air are being used. BUT the amount of soot per se is not the issue. It's the amount of ash forming material that enters the DPF.

I think the issue is semantics. I think most call a diesel particulate particle soot. But technically, we really ought to be saying that the DPF traps diesel particulate particles not soot per se. As I understand it, a diesel particulate particle or soot particle is made up of soot at the core (carbon from incomplete combustion) and other materials (such as metals and minerals and other ash forming compounds) that "stick" to the carbon core.

Forgoing the semantics, I don't believe that more soot particles due to blowing the engine out is directly porpotional to ash accumulation. The amount of ash in a gallon of fuel does not change. But the actual soot from burning a gallon of fuel can vary based on the level of incomplete combustion. If there was no ash forming materials in engine oil and fuel, the particles entering the DPF would have virtually no "ash" material in it and be completely combusted regardless of how the car was driven. It's the amount of ash forming materials that enters the DPF that affects life of the DPF (ash volume) not the amount of soot per se.

Again, my belief is that those who get higher fuel economy will have longer DPF life than those that have lower fuel economy all other things being the same. I doubt an occassional Italian tuneup will have much affect on DPF life. Less air, oil, and fuel used per mile of driving over the life of the life of the DPF should extend its life. Those whose continual driving styles / conditions use more air, oil, and fuel per mile will likely see shortened DPF life.
 

MacBuckeye

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I wonder if cetane has any affect on oil ash build up. Anyone know if higher concentrations of cetane increases the burn temperature of diesel fuel? Would a better burn produce less ash? I've been using a good additive from day one, but I don't see my DPF accumulation data being any different than the rest of the posts.
I'm hoping the increased lubricity from additives help the soot/ash "slip" through the DPF and out the tail pipe. :eek:
 

Jack Frost

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Therefore, what you're saying is... conservative driving without gunning and racing your engine will increase the life of your DPF.
That is what I suspect, but no one will ever be able to prove it. I believe that if the engine is burning cleanly (that is it is not burning sooty), then any metallic byproducts of that combustion will be more likely to blow through and out the DPF as they are probabaly not much larger than a molecule in size.

Then it stands to reason that soot particles (mostly carbon which is natures most absorbant material) will collect and trap ash molecules and hold them inside the DPF where they will always remain.
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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That is what I suspect, but no one will ever be able to prove it. I believe that if the engine is burning cleanly (that is it is not burning sooty), then any metallic byproducts of that combustion will be more likely to blow through and out the DPF as they are probabaly not much larger than a molecule in size.

Then it stands to reason that soot particles (mostly carbon which is natures most absorbant material) will collect and trap ash molecules and hold them inside the DPF where they will always remain.
I agree that producing less soot will likely add to the life of the DPF. That is why I asked MacBuckeye when he started this thread to include the fuel economy along with the oil ash volume. As we start seeing DPF failures, we might be able to see a trend in DPF mileage life vs fuel economy (proxy for conservative driving aka less particulate matter / soot being produced).

However, I've read many studies on particulate traps and particulate matter and I don't recall any discussion on volume of ash molecules or ash material vs soot blowing out the back end of a DPF. There's no question that some particles do exit the exhaust. When I swipe my finger inside the exhaust pipe, there's a fine, thin coating of black residue on the inside of the pipe.
 

King Crimson

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2010 Jetta TDI
However, I've read many studies on particulate traps and particulate matter and I don't recall any discussion on volume of ash molecules or ash material vs soot blowing out the back end of a DPF. There's no question that some particles do exit the exhaust. When I swipe my finger inside the exhaust pipe, there's a fine, thin coating of black residue on the inside of the pipe.
Maybe we can figure out how to give our vehicles DPF enemas. :eek:

Stick something up and into the exhaust pipe, start the car and all the ash and soot sprays out.:rolleyes:
 

HeAvYfUeL

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MemberName: HeAvYfUeL
Model Year: 2009
Model: Jetta Wagon
Tranny: DSG
Miles: 29500
Oil Ash Volume: 30 ml
Avrg. MPG: fuelly
Oil: Castrol LL03
Location: QC

Comments:
PS every fill-up.
12.9 Soot Load(g) Calculated
0.0 Soot Load(g) Measured
16.2 l Fuel Consumption Since last Regen
230 km Mileage Since last Regen
324 Time elapsed since Regeneration
 

lsnover

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Hey Guys:

I'm a "new" used TDI owner. I have a 09 Jetta Sedan DSG with 98K miles. I purchased it used from the local VW dealer a few weeks ago. If I knew then, what I've learned since, I think I would have passed. Such is life.

Aside from potential HPFP and DPF issues to worry about, I really like the car. lol.

Anyway, my brother and I purchased the VAGCOM software and cable for our other VWs, and I'm going to be changing the Fuel Filter this weekend. I will check the ash/soot levels and report back. I did talk to the previous owner who did about 30K a year of mostly highway commuting.

I can not believe that VW would build and sell a car with this much expensive kaka that can not be easily/reasonably serviced! I'm generally a free market capitalist type, but it seems there should be some "disclosure" that these manufacturer's should have to present to customers when buying cars with these kind of service requirements.

Of course, we have our own government and EPA to thank. I read elsewhere that it is possible just to remove the DPF (based on your local laws) and have the engine retuned by Malone? If mine loads up beyond repair and we can't otherwise find a reasonable cost solution, I guess this is a potential option.

Whatever genius at VW thought this up needs to be taken out and tarred and feathered.
 

lsnover

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Hi Again Guys:

I've read through this entire thread, and maybe I missed it. How much of an Ash loading is considered "full"?
 

JSWTDI09

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How much of an Ash loading is considered "full"?
That is a very good question. I do not think that we know the answer to this one, but we wish we did. This little tidbit of information is not in any of the documents that I have read. VW might know, but they haven't told us.

Have Fun!

Don
 

lsnover

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MemberName: lsnover
Model Year: 2009
Model: Jetta Sedan
Tranny: DSG
Miles: 98355
Oil Ash Volume: 99 ml
Avrg. MPG: 38.0
Oil: Unknown (Changed regularly at VW Dealer)

Seems to be pretty consistent, around 1ml per thousand miles. Really would like to know the capacity of this thing. Surely VW techs. must know?!
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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MemberName: lsnover
Model Year: 2009
Model: Jetta Sedan
Tranny: DSG
Miles: 98355
Oil Ash Volume: 99 ml
Avrg. MPG: 38.0
Oil: Unknown (Changed regularly at VW Dealer)

Seems to be pretty consistent, around 1ml per thousand miles. Really would like to know the capacity of this thing. Surely VW techs. must know?!
I doubt it. The techs seem to always have to call VW to get answers.:D

It will be interesting since you aren't far from the scheduled service of a "DPF check" at 120k miles and every 10k thereafter. In Bentleys, the check amounts to reading the soot load in block 68 field 2. If the soot load exceeds 60 grams the DPF must be changed.
 

lsnover

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I doubt it. The techs seem to always have to call VW to get answers.:D

It will be interesting since you aren't far from the scheduled service of a "DPF check" at 120k miles and every 10k thereafter. In Bentleys, the check amounts to reading the soot load in block 68 field 2. If the soot load exceeds 60 grams the DPF must be changed.
We are talking Ash, not soot. Does the manual say soot? The soot should be burning off, if for some reason it doesn't you need to replace the DPF because there is a problem.

How do ml relate to grams?

[EDIT] OK, ml and grams are synonymous so answered my own question. Obviously, these PDFs are not FULL with 65ml of _ASH_ or just about everyone on the post here would be needing a replacement. I'm going in for some service on my 08 Passat tomorrow and I will get an answer to this question from the VW service guys.
 
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JSWTDI09

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How do ml relate to grams?

[EDIT] OK, ml and grams are synonymous so answered my own question. Obviously, these PDFs are not FULL with 65ml of _ASH_ or just about everyone on the post here would be needing a replacement. I'm going in for some service on my 08 Passat tomorrow and I will get an answer to this question from the VW service guys.
IIRC, ml and grams are only synonymous if the substance in question has the exact same density as water. I seriously doubt that ash has the same density as water (but I do not know what it is).

However, you are correct is differentiating between soot load and ash load. This point seems to often confuse these discussions. I really wish we had a clear answer to these questions.

Have Fun!

Don
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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We are talking Ash, not soot. Does the manual say soot? The soot should be burning off, if for some reason it doesn't you need to replace the DPF because there is a problem.

How do ml relate to grams?

[EDIT] OK, ml and grams are synonymous so answered my own question. Obviously, these PDFs are not FULL with 65ml of _ASH_ or just about everyone on the post here would be needing a replacement. I'm going in for some service on my 08 Passat tomorrow and I will get an answer to this question from the VW service guys.
The manual says soot. Here's my take below.

One can convert from ml to grams by knowing the density of the material (g/ml). So one can express the ash or soot in the DPF in grams or ml. Let's assume the density of ash is 1.5 g/ml. Then, based on the 99ml of oil ash volume in your DPF, you would have nearly 150 grams of ash. Let's assume the density of soot is 0.6 g/ml and that an active regen is initiated at between 18 - 24 grams of soot load to burn the soot in the DPF. Then prior to active regen, the volume of soot would be between 30 - 40 ml on top of the 99ml of ash. Thus, the total space occupied by soot and ash might be between 130 - 140 ml. After regen, virtually all the soot is burned leaving only a very small amount of ash that adds to the 99 ml. Like you said the ash volume appears to change at the rate of about 1ml per 1000 miles.

Because a regen cannot be initited after a soot load of 45 grams is reached since it would damage the DPF, the accumulation of soot will continue in the DPF. Passive regens may burn some of the accumlating soot but apparently the point of no return is 65 grams of soot load regardless of the actual oil ash volume.

Soot load / volume can increase very quickly based on driving style / conditions as active regens can occur every few hundreds of miles (say 18 gram / 30 ml changes). But ash level changes very slowly.

So, my take is that the oil ash volume will give an idea of expected life of the DPF (once we get some actual data from owners as to what their oil ash volume was at time of DPF failure or VW sheds some light on the subject). But, because of other considerations like damaging the DPF above 45 grams if initiating an active regen and the rapid rate of increase that can occur in soot load due to driving style or perhaps malfunction, soot load is a better determinant of when to replace a DPF.

I would expect that those whose oil ash volume rate of change is lower than average would experience a longer DPF life than those that are higher than average all other things being equal.
 
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JSWTDI09

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The manual says soot. Here's my take below.

One can convert from ml to grams by knowing the density of the material (g/ml). So one can express the ash or soot in the DPF in grams or ml. Let's assume the density of ash is 2.5 g/ml.

I wonder if the manual is right about this - my guess would be that they meant ash, but who knows. Also, I tend to doubt that ash is 2.5 times the density of water. Other than that, your logic and arithmetic looks to be correct.

Have Fun!

Don
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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I wonder if the manual is right about this - my guess would be that they meant ash, but who knows. Also, I tend to doubt that ash is 2.5 times the density of water. Other than that, your logic and arithmetic looks to be correct.

Have Fun!

Don
Actually now that I think about your right, it it likely closer to 1.5. I did research it a while back and couldn't find any exact numbers because it the density depends on the makeup of the ash and the compactness of the ash. I'll edit the above post to 1.5. But the principle is the same. Soot is lighter than ash. :D Same thing with soot although there have been studies / tests on pariculate matter and I think the 0.6+ is about right for diesel particulate matter.

Edit: for those interested, here's links of the density of various elements and compounds (divide the numbers in the fourth column by 1000 to get g/ml). Now we need to know the make up of the ash in the DPF.:D
 
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