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Go Back   TDIClub Forums > TDI Model Specific Discussions Areas > VW Passat Family (NMS and B7) TDIs (2012+)

VW Passat Family (NMS and B7) TDIs (2012+) Discussion area for the 2012+ Passat TDI (North American and rest of world versions versions). The North American model was previously codenamed NMS (New Midsize Sedan) and the version the rest of the world gets is sometimes referred to as B7.

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Old August 17th, 2011, 12:29   #1141
PlaneCrazy
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Originally Posted by oxford_guy View Post
Passat vs. Lupo. Which would you rather buy?

depends on the intended mission!
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Old August 17th, 2011, 12:36   #1142
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I really, really like the Lupo's styling. Inside and out. It still looks fresh today.
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Old August 17th, 2011, 14:29   #1143
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I really, really like the Lupo's styling. Inside and out. It still looks fresh today.
Agreed.
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Old August 17th, 2011, 16:24   #1144
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Originally Posted by abctdi View Post
What was the title of this thread again???

I think the point is to many of us here on this site at least is we want a new replacement that can at least equal the mid 50s mpgUS, easily achieved with a manual trans and 1Z or ALH equipped car.

Every diesel I have purchased for purpose of being my daily driver has always exceeded what the older model was capable, going back to the late 70s.

But today because of high cost at the pump making all VW diesel offerings sold for the last 30 years if in working order hold their value like no other thing ever sold here in the states. And the very limited supply of offered diesel models from the last 15 years that gets smaller everyday along with the high price at the pump have combined to make their resale value just too high for me unless they are in pieces not running. Because of the high value of my 20+ year old Jetta D last year I got enough to purchase a 16 year newer low miles on the clock Toyota.

This price difference has forced me to purchase a late model Toyota Corolla and newer Honda Accord in the last 2 years because of the lower price. I could get these decades newer Asian models with low miles compared under 50k miles compared to VW diesel models with 150k to 200k+ miles at twice their age or more .

If I am going to have to put out this kind of cash to replace my diesel it needs to at least equal the mid 50s mpgUS in mixed driving of pretty much any manual trans 1z or ALH equipped car. Nothing sold since 03 MY in the US can do this, hybrids included real world the way I drive. I have plenty of miles clocked in these pieces of crap to prove that hybrids donnot equal my diesels at speed or in miles clocked at speed mpgs.

I care less than nothing about 0-60 mph ( more than willing to live with 20+ sec. range of 0 to 60 ). A lower power 3-4 cylinder that can return 60+ mpgs in a Polo, Jetta/Golf, Passat BlueMotion powered car is what I want with TDI diesel power.
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Old August 17th, 2011, 17:36   #1145
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Originally Posted by rotarykid View Post
I care less than nothing about 0-60 mph ( more than willing to live with 20+ sec. range of 0 to 60 ). .
if you're actually serious about fuel mileage, I can point you toward something that is known to get about 350 mpg..... and has for the last 40+ years. its also the best selling vehicle on earth, many, many times over.






....the Supercub




I own a bunch of bikes, and the only one that gets decent mileage for its size is my BMW R1150GS.
Its a monster but you can still get 50 mpg out of it.
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Last edited by eatpasta; August 17th, 2011 at 17:38.
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Old August 17th, 2011, 20:35   #1146
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Originally Posted by rotarykid View Post
I think the point is to many of us here on this site at least is we want a new replacement that can at least equal the mid 50s mpgUS, easily achieved with a manual trans and 1Z or ALH equipped car.

Every diesel I have purchased for purpose of being my daily driver has always exceeded what the older model was capable, going back to the late 70s.

But today because of high cost at the pump making all VW diesel offerings sold for the last 30 years if in working order hold their value like no other thing ever sold here in the states. And the very limited supply of offered diesel models from the last 15 years that gets smaller everyday along with the high price at the pump have combined to make their resale value just too high for me unless they are in pieces not running. Because of the high value of my 20+ year old Jetta D last year I got enough to purchase a 16 year newer low miles on the clock Toyota.

This price difference has forced me to purchase a late model Toyota Corolla and newer Honda Accord in the last 2 years because of the lower price. I could get these decades newer Asian models with low miles compared under 50k miles compared to VW diesel models with 150k to 200k+ miles at twice their age or more .

If I am going to have to put out this kind of cash to replace my diesel it needs to at least equal the mid 50s mpgUS in mixed driving of pretty much any manual trans 1z or ALH equipped car. Nothing sold since 03 MY in the US can do this, hybrids included real world the way I drive. I have plenty of miles clocked in these pieces of crap to prove that hybrids donnot equal my diesels at speed or in miles clocked at speed mpgs.

I care less than nothing about 0-60 mph ( more than willing to live with 20+ sec. range of 0 to 60 ). A lower power 3-4 cylinder that can return 60+ mpgs in a Polo, Jetta/Golf, Passat BlueMotion powered car is what I want with TDI diesel power.
Don't blame VW, blame the EPA for lower mpg's and higher car costs...
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Old August 18th, 2011, 05:24   #1147
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Originally Posted by PlaneCrazy View Post
When the Lupo is 15 years old though, it will be legal to import one into Canada. Should be easy to find a clean, low-mileage European Lupo. Mind you I think I'd prefer the Polo, a little more right-sized for me.
Don't bet on it. Not many were made (bad market timing, I think), and now they're in high demand. Especially the diesel ones. They're a hit also with hot-hatch tuners, the TDI can be chipped and the car's low weight makes it quite quick.

But if it's true that you can import 15 years old cars into Canada, you have other options. Polos have been coming with diesel engines forever and they tend to hold together well even after 15 years.
Early Fabias are turning 12, but the 1.4 TDI only came from 2003, so you'd have to wait a while.
Maybe in 11 years' time, I'll ship mine over to you Don't think I'll give it up much sooner, I just got 71mpg (US) on a recent 150 mile trip, without really making any special effort to save fuel (I even used the aircon for part of the trip).
You can also service any of these at any mechanic that knows VWs.
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Old August 18th, 2011, 05:34   #1148
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Originally Posted by rotarykid View Post
But today because of high cost at the pump making all VW diesel offerings sold for the last 30 years if in working order hold their value like no other thing ever sold here in the states.
For today, this is not exactly true. Due to the problems in Japan, most of the Japanese manufactured used cars are increasing in value. I have a 2009 CR-V with almost 50K miles and was just offered $21,500 in cash from the Honda dealer. No tie to having to purchase a new car from them. I can take the cash and walk across the street to buy a 2011 TDI Golf, if I wanted. I paid around $26,000 for it in November of 2008 and value has gone up between $3000 and $4000 this summer. I know this is short lived but at least I can dream of having two TDIs in my garage at the same time.
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Old August 18th, 2011, 09:30   #1149
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Originally Posted by abctdi View Post
Don't blame VW, blame the EPA for lower mpg's and higher car costs...
Definitely.
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Old August 18th, 2011, 10:26   #1150
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There's a middle ground.

When emissions standards are such that cars are emitting CLEANER exhaust than the intake air, they may have gone too far.

When emissions standards are such that cars subject to the emissions standards are getting worse fuel economy, or that the most economical options are no longer feasible, they may have gone too far.

When emissions standards are based on pseudoscience, they may have gone too far. (See: the weekend effect, and studies of the effects of very high particle mass but with low particle count (what diesels put out) versus low particle mass but with very high particle count (what gassers put out).)

I'm not calling for cars that "roll the coal" or the return of the 1960s 2-stroke gasser (although if a direct injected 2-stroke can have reasonable emissions, bring it on.) Myself, I want to see reasonable emissions standards that prevent gross pollution, but don't make efficiency impractical. Every single vehicle in that photo would fail, say, a mid 1990s EPA emissions test, and almost certainly state/regional emissions tests for cars of that age. For that matter, the trucks are probably getting awful fuel economy, and not as much power as they could be making. The car will be worn out and also getting bad fuel economy.
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Old August 18th, 2011, 10:31   #1151
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Originally Posted by bhtooefr View Post
When emissions standards are based on pseudoscience, they may have gone too far. (See: the weekend effect, and studies of the effects of very high particle mass but with low particle count (what diesels put out) versus low particle mass but with very high particle count (what gassers put out).)
This isn't clear to me. Are you saying that the weekend effect study is pseudoscience, or that it counters pseudoscience?
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Old August 18th, 2011, 10:39   #1152
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I'm saying that it counters pseudoscience.

The weekend effect studies are showing that in a VOC-rich environment, which is true of (IIRC) all smoggy areas in the US, NOx is actually beneficial for reducing smog. (And, there are studies showing that in forest areas, even if you banned all human activity, there would still be a VOC-rich environment unless you deforested the area.)

Meanwhile, those in charge of emissions standards are ratcheting down on NOx emissions.
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Old August 18th, 2011, 10:51   #1153
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Originally Posted by oxford_guy View Post
I could not see the link from work, but from the subsequent posts I'll just say this; EGR seems to cause more smoke out the tail pipe while reducing NOX supposedly. Smoke out the tail pipe gives diesels a bad rap while reducing invisible products does not seem to help public perception of our cars.
But now, I'm drifting of topic
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Old August 18th, 2011, 11:59   #1154
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Originally Posted by bhtooefr View Post
I'm saying that it counters pseudoscience.

The weekend effect studies are showing that in a VOC-rich environment, which is true of (IIRC) all smoggy areas in the US, NOx is actually beneficial for reducing smog. (And, there are studies showing that in forest areas, even if you banned all human activity, there would still be a VOC-rich environment unless you deforested the area.)

Meanwhile, those in charge of emissions standards are ratcheting down on NOx emissions.
That's correct. There have been at least 13 peer-reviewed studies (10 of which were independent) published in respected scientific journals in the past decade or so focusing on the "weekend ozone effect". This is a phenomenon that occurs on weekends mainly in urban cores where ambient ozone levels rise in spite of significant reductions in ozone precursor emissions (ozone is the primary constituent of "smog"). All of these studies concluded that the increases in ozone levels on weekends were the results of larger reductions in NOx (oxides of nitrogen) emissions (mostly from a very large decrease in diesel truck traffic) than other ozone "precursors" (e.g., volatile organic compounds (VOC), carbon monoxide). EPA refers to this phenomenon as "NOx disbenefit".

The most recent of these studies (Blanchard, Tanenbaum, Lawson; “Differences between Weekday and Weekend Air Pollutant Levels in Atlanta; Baltimore; Chicago; Dallas–Fort Worth; Denver; Houston; New York; Phoenix; Washington, DC; and Surrounding Areas.” Journal of the Air & Waste Management Association, Volume 58, December 2008, Pages 1598–1615, abstract available at http://secure.awma.org/journal/Abstract.aspx?id=2017) concludes that all of these large urban areas are "VOC-limited" with respect to ozone formation, and thus potentially may see increases in ambient ozone levels as a result of several EPA regulations which mandate large reductions in NOx emissions from on-road and off-road diesel engines.

To make matters worse, EPA expected increases in ambient ozone levels in urban areas based on "Regulatory Impact Analysis" documents (RIA) of their regulations of NOx emissions reductions from diesel engines. For example, EPA specifically acknowledges that "…It should be noted, however, that the potential exists for a few localized areas to actually experience slight increases in ozone concentrations as a result of NOx emission reductions...." (EPA Final Regulatory Impact Analysis: Control of Emissions of Air Pollution from Highway Heavy-Duty Engines, http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/hd-hwy/1997frm/hwy-ria.pdf , page 119). In another RIA, EPA actually projects that one county (Bronx County in New York) which was not in violation of the ozone NAAQS, would violate the standard by 2020 as a result of its regulation (EPA Final Regulatory Impact Analysis: Control of Emissions from Nonroad Diesel Engines, http://epa.gov/nonroad-diesel/2004fr/420r04007c.pdf , page 2-114). On page 2-36 of another RIA (EPA Regulatory Impact Analysis: Control of Emissions of Air Pollution from Locomotive Engines and Marine Compression Ignition Engines Less than 30 Liters Per Cylinder, http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/nonroad/420r08001a.pdf), EPA states that their modeling indicated that 5 counties would experience increases in ambient ozone levels as a result of that specific rule, and that one county (Orange County, California) would experience a 5.5 ppb increase in ozone levels because of the NOx disbenefit in those areas. One can only imagine what the net effect of all of these regulations will eventually have on the ambient ozone levels in urban cores.

It should be pointed out that EPA specifically states that VOC reductions in "NOx-limited" areas have virtually no effect, i.e., there's no "VOC disbenefit" in rural areas (normally expected to be NOx-limited). Thus there doesn't appear to be any valid scientific reason for EPA to focus on NOx emission reductions while doing little to further reduce VOC emissions, and its recent emission reduction strategies and priorities are perplexing.
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Old August 18th, 2011, 14:07   #1155
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That has got to be (one of) the most well documented and scientifically sound posts I have ever seen related to automotive emissions regulations.

Thank you!
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