Nitrogen tire inflation vs. using air

I use to supervise flight line requirements of earlier generation nitrogen carts http://www.pci-intl.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57&Itemid=115

for app 100 F4E fighters.

Guys.

The general membership of this forum is developing a severe reading comprehension issue.

If you continue to blather on about N this and N that, the casual reader is gonna think that there actually is something to gain by using N in HIS OWN CAR TIRES.

I think we are all agreed that N is not necessary, nor is there ANY measurable benefit from using N in OUR STREET DRIVEN CARS.

It is absolutely necessary to keep your tires properly inflated with whatever gas you choose to use. I have N in my tires because the tires came filled with it. (Costco)
I don't go back there if I have a low tire, I simply top off from my own (air)compressor.
Drain the moisture from your air tank(s) before each use..... really! A pint of water from an air tank spread across the floor can look like gallons, but it is not.

As for the thesis that claimed 70% less rolling resistance for an N inflated tire.... that is beyond stupid.. and if the professor had actually read it, he should have laughed the student out of class.

Sheesh!

Let us tailor our posts for maximum clarity and actual everyday usefulness.

Thank you.

Bill

darkscout said:

We're talking about car tires, at car operating temperatures and pressures. When my car tires breaks past 10 atm of pressure or 400 K in temp, I'll start to worry about the different coefficients of expansion.

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Agreed, but I think it's worth clarifying in order to demonstrate how a scientific truth is used without any reference to magnitude in order to sell something.

When people use science to say something is "more than" or "less than" something else, I want to remind people to remember those words should make you ask, "by how much" and/or "under what conditions" because people love to use science to their own ends.

SuburbanTDI said:

If you're unaware then you must have missed the links and quotes included above to scientific studies documenting the benefits of Nitrogen on tires.

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These are not scientific studies. http://autoprodistributing.com/Portals/0/Docs/Fordbaldwin.pdf is a paper presented at some rubber chemical meeting whose work was supported by industry who supplied the technology to produce nitrogen used in their study. The paper does not state the qualifications of the authors either. It is not published in any kind of professional journal that would scrutinize the methods and the conclusions. It is not peer reviewed. In fact, I could only get as far as the third sentence before I detected a serious bias.

Take a look at the domain name the paper is taken form. It is hosted on a site maintained by a company who builds and sells nitrogen inflation equipment. Pretty self serving if you ask me. Looks like a case of someone trying to build up his google ratings.

fnj2 said:

I'm going to assume you mean N2 (nitrogen) and not NO2 (nitrous oxide).

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You guys are killing me here.

N2 = Nitrogen (in air)
NO2 = Nitrogen Dioxide (toxic)
N2O = Nitrous Oxide (anesthetic)

david_594 said:

You guys are killing me here.

N2 = Nitrogen (in air)
NO2 = Nitrogen Dioxide (toxic)
N2O = Nitrous Oxide (anesthetic)

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^^^+1 Touche'

/me grabs another beer and reloads on popcorn. Chemistry has never been more entertaining.

david_594 said:

You guys are killing me here.

N2 = Nitrogen (in air)
NO2 = Nitrogen Dioxide (toxic)
N2O = Nitrous Oxide (anesthetic)

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haha, and i believed the first guy!!!



and on the issue.
i use air. Gate station has it for free, and when im not lazy i can crank up my air compressor and get it free there too....

40X40 said:

Guys.

The general membership of this forum is developing a severe reading comprehension issue.

If you continue to blather on about N this and N that, the casual reader is gonna think that there actually is something to gain by using N in HIS OWN CAR TIRES.

I think we are all agreed that N is not necessary, nor is there ANY measurable benefit from using N in OUR STREET DRIVEN CARS.

It is absolutely necessary to keep your tires properly inflated with whatever gas you choose to use. ...
Bill

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AMEN but how do we correct severe reading comprehension?

If you Experience S.R.C for 4 hours or more please go to doctor.

Plus 3 Golfer said:

AMEN but how do we correct severe reading comprehension?

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IDK,

Maybe we threaten to award the most egregious offenders with a

<<<I (HEART) K & N >>> tattoo on their forehead??? Would that work?

LOL

Bill

Jack Frost said:

These are not scientific studies. http://autoprodistributing.com/Portals/0/Docs/Fordbaldwin.pdf is a paper presented at some rubber chemical meeting whose work was supported by industry who supplied the technology to produce nitrogen used in their study. The paper does not state the qualifications of the authors either. It is not published in any kind of professional journal that would scrutinize the methods and the conclusions. It is not peer reviewed. In fact, I could only get as far as the third sentence before I detected a serious bias.

Take a look at the domain name the paper is taken form. It is hosted on a site maintained by a company who builds and sells nitrogen inflation equipment. Pretty self serving if you ask me. Looks like a case of someone trying to build up his google ratings.

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The Author is John M. Baldwin, Ph.D.. Baldwin wrote the following peer reviewed articles:

Baldwin JM, Bauer DR. Rubber oxidation and tire aging—A review. Rubber Chem Technol 2008; 81(2):338–358.

Ellwood KRJ, Baldwin JM, Bauer DR. Numerical model for nitrogen tire inflation. Tire Sci Technol 2007; 35:300-316.

Ellwood KRJ, Baldwin JM, Bauer DR. Numerische Simulation der thermischen oxidation in kraftfahrzeugreifen. GAK Gummi Fasern Kunststoffe, 60 Jahrgang, Oktober 2007; S:664–674.

Baldwin JM, Bauer DR, Ellwood KRJ. Correlation of laboratory tire endurance and rubber aging. Rubber Chem Technol 2007; 80(4):726–737.

Baldwin JM, Bauer DR, Ellwood KRJ. Rubber aging in tires. I. Field results. Polym Degrad Stab 2007; 92(1):103–109.

Bauer DR, Baldwin JM, Ellwood KRJ. Rubber aging in tires. 2. Accelerated oven aging tests. Polym Degrad Stab 2007; 92(1):110–117.

Ellwood KRJ, Baldwin JM, Bauer DR. Numerical simulation of thermal oxidation in automotive tires. Rubber Chem Technol 2006; 79(2):249–266.

Ellwood KRJ, Baldwin JM, Bauer DR. A finite-element model for oven aged tires. Tire Sci Technol 2005; 33:103–119.

Baldwin JM, Bauer DR, Ellwood KRJ. Accelerated aging of tires, Part II. Rubber Chem Technol 2005; 78(2):336–353.

Baldwin JM, Bauer DR, Hurley PD. Field aging of tires, Part II. Rubber Chem Technol 2005; 78(5):754–766.

Baldwin JM, Bauer DR, Ellwood KRJ. Accelerated aging of tires, Part III. Rubber Chem Technol 2005; 78(5):767–776.

Bauer DR, Baldwin JM, Ellwood KRJ. Correlation of rubber properties between field aged tires and laboratory aged tires. Rubber Chem Technol 2005; 78(5):777–792.

Baldwin JM, Bauer DR, Ellwood KRJ. Effects of nitrogen inflation on tire aging and performance. Rubber Plastics News 2004; 34(4):14–19

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Baldwin also possess the following patents:

DE69530849T2: Epoxidharzklebstoffzusammensetzung, Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing, 2004 (Baldwin JM, Robins J).

US6539314 B1: Method for Simulating A Joint, Ford Motor Company, 2003 (Ondrus DJ, Kulkarni HT, Baldwin JM).

EP0782601B1: Epoxy Adhesive Composition, Minnesota Mining & Manufacturing 2003 (Baldwin JM, Robins J).

US5629380 A: Epoxy Adhesive Composition Comprising a Calcium Salt and Mannich Base, Minnesota Mining & Manufacturing, 1997 (Baldwin JM, Robins J).

EP0782601A1: Epoxy Adhesive Composition, Minnesota Mining & Manufacturing, 1997 (Baldwin JM, Robins K).

WO9609352A1: Epoxy Adhesive Composition, Minnesota Mining & Manufacturing, 1996 (Baldwin JM, Robins J).

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He also wrote this chapter:

Oxidative aging of rubber in tires. In: Current Topics of Elastomer Research. Bhowmick AK (ed), Taylor & Francis Group, LLC, CRC Press, 2008.

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Here is his profile:

Dr. John M. Baldwin is a Principal Scientist in Exponent’s Vehicle Engineering practice. His
expertise includes polymer science and technology, specializing in the synthesis, compounding,
degradation (chemical/physical), and testing of elastomer, plastic, adhesive, and foam based
systems.
Prior to joining Exponent, Dr. Baldwin worked in the Research Laboratory of Ford Motor
Company, where he became internationally recognized for his research on the topics of tire
aging, tire test development, tire service life prediction, and the use of nitrogen as a tire inflation
media. Before joining Ford Research, Dr. Baldwin worked in the Advanced Manufacturing
Technology Department where he researched and implemented high volume, automated
adhesive, sealer, and structural foam dispensing processes along with automated in-process
quality tests. Based on his professional and academic background, Dr. Baldwin was placed on a
major tire recall root cause analysis team, where he was responsible for developing,
coordinating, and implementing the chemical and physical testing of thousands of new and
recalled tires.
Dr. Baldwin worked for the 3M Company prior to joining Ford. While working in the 3M
Automotive Division, he developed and serviced a line of 2-part structural epoxy adhesives that
were sold to automotive manufacturers and the aftermarket. Dr. Baldwin, as a member of 3M
Occupational Health and Environmental Specialties Division, was responsible for the material
research and development, as well as the process engineering, of the blown microfiber nonwoven filter media used in maintenance-free respirators.

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Now a question, do you still believe he is just a biased hack and unqualified in his field? Granted he never managed a nitrogen machine and filled tires for a paycheck, but he did write the one paper quoted above while employed at Ford Motor Company.

40X40 said:

IDK,

Maybe we threaten to award the most egregious offenders with a

<<<I (HEART) K & N >>> tattoo on their forehead??? Would that work?

LOL

Bill

Click to expand...

^^^ I second that motion.

SuburbanTDI said:

The Author is John M. Baldwin, Ph.D.. Baldwin wrote the following peer reviewed articles:



Baldwin also possess the following patents:



He also wrote this chapter:



Here is his profile:



Now a question, do you still believe he is just a biased hack and unqualified in his field? Granted he never managed a nitrogen machine and filled tires for a paycheck, but he did write the one paper quoted above while employed at Ford Motor Company.

Click to expand...

And does Ford motor company recommend that we fill our tires with Nitrogen?

NO, not that I have heard.

So they paid this guy a good amount of money and didn't find that N is necessary for day to day driving....???

Keep it simple.

Bill

Science and facts don't stand a chance against people's beliefs and convictions arrived at second hand, and without examination.

One can only wonder why a discussion regarding nitrogen inflation was even brought to this forum. It's quite obviously a settled fact carved in stone for all time for a very vocal and belligerent minority who seem to have invested some level of personal capital in it.

Well, consider a rational look at the issue closed. I had little knowledge of the topic and no opinion before, now though I just have a bad taste in my mouth.

I would never have thought that presenting learned opinions, linking to references and reasoned discourse, on topic, would provoke the trolls.

Okay, I've had enough. Thinking about putting this on the banned topics list.

I know that some people don't want to read entire threads. I will summarize the truth about nitrogen inflation below. ALL of this has ALREADY been mentioned in this thread.

Fact 1: Both nitrogen and air (which is approx 78% nitrogen to begin with) follow the ideal gas law: Pv = nRT. The pressure of a fixed volume is proportional to the absolute temperature. Therefore, the claim that nitrogen "doesn't vary in pressure" is BUNK. It varies with temperature in exactly the same manner as air does.

Clarification A for the persnickety: Yes, there is a deviation from the ideal gas law behaviour which is only of any significance whatsoever at pressures enormously (hundreds to thousands of times) higher than ambient pressure, and at temperatures low enough so as to be approaching the liquefaction temperature of any given gas. Last time I checked, there is no ambient temperature or pressure anywhere on the surface of the Earth which is even remotely close to either of these conditions and if conditions were to approach those conditions, the composition of what is in your tires will be the least of your worries.

Clarification B for the persnickety: Water in your tires will cause more fluctuation with temperature than nitrogen versus air. (Reason: Water under normal ambient conditions IS close to its liquefaction temperature and can exist in both liquid and gaseous form.) DRY air won't have this issue.

Fact 2: Nitrogen does appear to leak out of tires at a slightly lower rate than air does. But the difference in leakage rate, based on actual testing, varies enormously by other factors and in no case is small enough to justify never getting out a pressure gauge and checking the tire pressure once a month just like it has always been recommended that you do. Remember, air is 78% nitrogen.

Fact 3: Aircraft may fill tires with nitrogen because they have systems that operate at extremely high pressures beyond those available from your average normal air compressor and it's just easier to fill those systems from a compressed gas cylinder. So, they may be filling their tires with nitrogen - but it's incidental to the fact that you can get compressed air cylinders with nitrogen in them (for compatibility with other systems that really DO need to be excluded from oxygen).

Fact 4: Nitrogen does not support either combustion or corrosion. True. When is the last time you've had a set of tires rot through from the *inside* before they either wore out from the outside or ozone-cracked from the outside?? Didn't think so. And if there is a situation in which the non-combustibility of nitrogen inside the tire is an issue ... you've got much bigger issues to concern yourself with, like the fact that the rest of your car is on fire all around those tires.

Thread done.