Engine spec list??

Pat Dolan · Nov 22, 2010

Was going to post this in the Motorsport section, but nobody has even been there for weeks.....so.....

My business has kept me away for a couple of years, so I have just used my shop for a storage place for tools and parts for projects that have been stalled (ask Louis, he has seen the disaster area). Time to get back to cleaning up many of the suspended projects (several TDI) and get back into the groove.

Does anyone know if and where there is a list of VWAG engines showing all related specs (rod journal sizes, rod lengths, main brg sizes, bore, stroke, etc.)????

Reason I am asking is that I can't run karts in soloII up here any more (Morons at ASN adopted the SCCA rulesbook EXCEPT for F125 - which is what we have raced for many years) and I must either change sports or change class. I am on that fence after taking a year off. While I have a yard full of VW/P/A full bodies to use (and a couple of Miatae) it is hard to go back to lead sleds after driving a dedicated race car on sticky rubber. The driving is SO different, I can't really drive competitively on street rubber anymore.

So, I am considering A Mod (bike engined, 700lb., run what ya brung) or B mod (900 lbs. min, 2.5 litre equivalent). Again, got lots of VW engines, but since big kid is a bio-lube researcher, it is pretty much a given that I have to build bio-D power. That means TDI, but the boost thing is the problem. ASN requires a 1.4 multiplier, and that means 1785cc. Well, 1780 IS a natural VW displacement 981X86.4), but not so simple with TDI. I don't have any two litre blocks around (anyone have a spare??) and the problem is I NEED a forged crank. The only way I can think of with 86.4 is Audi 225HP 1.8T. The ABA crank would put me just over with 79.5 bore from a 1.9, and displacement is not as critical as boost tolerance.

Any ideas? I'm all ears.

You can see the appeal of A Mod now. Just pay $2k for a crashed 'Busa and instant, reliable, light 175HP with sequential close ration gearbox.

G60ING · Nov 22, 2010

G60 cranks were forged and affordable. I've seen some spec charts over the years but I can't remember where they were. wikipedia usually has what I need when comparing rod length, rod bearing sizes, piston sizes and what not.

G60ING · Nov 22, 2010

http://www.a2resource.com/eandt/allengines.htmlhttp://www.bildon.com/catalog/subcat/engines/Wossner_Kolben.cfm

TDIMeister · Nov 22, 2010

VW 1.6 Diesel cranks are 86.4mm and forged. Combine them 81mm BHW pistons and appropriate rods and you can consider the job done. Massage a VE TDI head with larger valves and cam -- maybe 2-stage turbocharging?

-- and you might be on your way to close to 260 HP. A PD can push 300 HP at the same smoke levels.

TDIMeister · Nov 22, 2010

As for a block, a bored out 1.6 block should take a VE head (it does take an AAZ). But probably better to start with a 1.9 ALH or PD block and shave the deck and/or use custom long rods -- the latter gives a larger L/R ratio anyway.

Rub87 · Nov 22, 2010

Pat Dolan said:
Was going to post this in the Motorsport section, but nobody has even been there for weeks.....so.....

My business has kept me away for a couple of years, so I have just used my shop for a storage place for tools and parts for projects that have been stalled (ask Louis, he has seen the disaster area). Time to get back to cleaning up many of the suspended projects (several TDI) and get back into the groove.

Does anyone know if and where there is a list of VWAG engines showing all related specs (rod journal sizes, rod lengths, main brg sizes, bore, stroke, etc.)????

Reason I am asking is that I can't run karts in soloII up here any more (Morons at ASN adopted the SCCA rulesbook EXCEPT for F125 - which is what we have raced for many years) and I must either change sports or change class. I am on that fence after taking a year off. While I have a yard full of VW/P/A full bodies to use (and a couple of Miatae) it is hard to go back to lead sleds after driving a dedicated race car on sticky rubber. The driving is SO different, I can't really drive competitively on street rubber anymore.

So, I am considering A Mod (bike engined, 700lb., run what ya brung) or B mod (900 lbs. min, 2.5 litre equivalent). Again, got lots of VW engines, but since big kid is a bio-lube researcher, it is pretty much a given that I have to build bio-D power. That means TDI, but the boost thing is the problem. ASN requires a 1.4 multiplier, and that means 1785cc. Well, 1780 IS a natural VW displacement 981X86.4), but not so simple with TDI. I don't have any two litre blocks around (anyone have a spare??) and the problem is I NEED a forged crank. The only way I can think of with 86.4 is Audi 225HP 1.8T. The ABA crank would put me just over with 79.5 bore from a 1.9, and displacement is not as critical as boost tolerance.

Any ideas? I'm all ears.

You can see the appeal of A Mod now. Just pay $2k for a crashed 'Busa and instant, reliable, light 175HP with sequential close ration gearbox.

you can have a look into the new 1.6 commonrail crank and block, the injection system is delhpi or so, so thats no go, but it will work quite well with a 2.0l CR head with bosch injection for a high revving engine (only 80.5mm stroke)

btw, as you have some miata's, you don't have per accident an affordable 5.125 r&p lyin around? =)

bhtooefr · Nov 22, 2010

Here's some oddball options, staying in the EA113 (Mk4+ 4-cylinder diesel) family, based on US-available blocks...

1.7 SDI crank in an ALH gives you 1716 cc (1.7 SDI uses ALH-esque pistons and rods, 79.5x86.4)
1.6 CR-TDI rods/crank in a BHW/CBEA/CJAA (or a BEW/BRM bored out to 81 mm) gives you 1660 cc (81.0x80.5)

Note the build that TDIMeister is doing with (IIRC) custom 3.0 V6 TDI-based pistons in a CBEA... that gives you 1742 cc (83.0x80.5) with a 1.6 CR-TDI crank and rods...

Or, for the piece de resistance... I think this one's possible, anyway...

1.7 SDI crank with 2.5 5-cylinder TDI pistons in a bored out ALH and stock ALH rods gives you 1781 cc (81.0x86.4)

I want to say that the 1.7 SDI crank is also available for EA827 engines, so you could do the same thing to a 1Z/AHU, too.

Edit: I was wrong, actually. The 1.7 SDI is an EA827 thing only. Not sure how well EA827 cranks interchange with EA113 motors, if they do at all.

Pat Dolan · Nov 22, 2010

I'm looking for bolt together stuff, as any custom bits makes A Mod the way to go. I am not sure that a 1.9 having enough wall left if I went to 81.0....and IF I find the right pistons for the 2.5, I WILL have a set of 81.0 pistons and new rings available.

Already, the cost of building a diesel for Solo competition means that turbocharging is secondary....the response of ANY turbo is so slow it make the car undriveable. I was thinking an Eaton M45 with a seriesed turbo....but there goes the cost thing again. I guess I could use a G-lader, but they always seem to need rebuilding. (BTW: G60-thanks for the link).

Back to the shop....late night with trailer repairs coming up.....

shortysclimbin · Nov 22, 2010

Early ABA motors also have forged rods and crank stock. I do not remember the model year of the top of my head, but they are very good bottom ends to run a 2.0L crossflow gas motor with boost. An AHU head would also fit on top of this block plug easy enough.

bhtooefr · Nov 22, 2010

Pat Dolan: The 1.9 has the same bore spacing as the 2.0 and 2.5 TDIs, so boring a 1.9 out to 81.0 leaves you just as much wall spacing as the 2.0 and 2.5... and the 2.5 TDI actually predates the 1.9 TDI. (Although, IIRC, the 2.4NA and the 1.9NA came out around the same time.)

I do believe the reason the 1.9 stayed a 1.9 for as long as it did was because of taxation reasons - until recently, most European countries had a higher tax for 2.0L and higher engines, and VW could dodge it by staying at 1.9. Once those taxes started going away, and countries switched to CO2-based taxation, VW went ahead and punched the 1.9 out to 2.0. (And then, because they could hit the 1.9's former power numbers with a 1.6, they heavily de-stroked the 1.9 for that, to get better efficiency (and therefore lower CO2.))

TDIMeister · Nov 22, 2010

Pat Dolan said:
I am not sure that a 1.9 having enough wall left if I went to 81.0....

??? Wall thickness is the least of your worries boring out from 79.5 to 81mm. Boring out an early 1.6 block that had a 76.5mm bore out to 81 might be more problematic.

shortysclimbin said:
Early ABA motors also have forged rods and crank stock.

The ABA and other 2L VW gassers also have 92.8mm strokes. Pat specifically wants to target 86.4mm in order to come as close as possible to the rulebook in his area that limits displacement to 1785cc. 81x86.4 would yield 1781cc.

mk3pd · Nov 23, 2010

ALH block bored to 81mm with 2liter PD head gasket
Pistons from Transporter 2.5 ACV or 2liter PD
86.4mm crank from 06A 1.8t
1780cc with above combination
Trigger wheel from the ALH fits straight onto the 06A crank
148.50cc custom rods (i can make these for you)
Makes a good rod/stroke ratio of 1.71
Stock ALH is 1.5

Compression will drop to around 16,9:1 if using ACV pistons (if i calculated correct)

Rub87 · Nov 23, 2010

mk3pd said:
ALH block bored to 81mm with 2liter PD head gasket
Pistons from Transporter 2.5 ACV or 2liter PD
86.4mm crank from 06A 1.8t
1780cc with above combination
Trigger wheel from the ALH fits straight onto the 06A crank
148.50cc custom rods (i can make these for you)
Makes a good rod/stroke ratio of 1.71
Stock ALH is 1.5

Compression will drop to around 16,9:1 if using ACV pistons (if i calculated correct)

sounds like a winner combination with a 2260vk =)

mk3pd · Nov 23, 2010

Should be a nice reving engine with a nearly perfect cr for higher boost

G60ING · Nov 23, 2010

There were some early 2L FSI turbo motors with aluminum blocks. Is there any chance you can use one of these for a light weight tdi or is the strength a concern? Contact INA as I think he bought one from ecode parts (formerly owned by an NGP owner) before they went belly up.

You should contact INA just because he loves building crazy hybrid engines using factory parts.

G60s are great for lower RPMS and lower CFMs. But they are beautiful sounding stump pulling machines when running good. I never had troubles with my G60 and it had a custom case and many other upgrades that made mine very unique.

TDIMeister · Nov 23, 2010

@Geir: Does the ACV piston have the cut out for the oil squirter in the same place as the 4-cylinder TDIs, or does the different placement apply only to the Crafter pistons?

The ACV pistons have no oil cooling channel. Therefore I would prefer pistons from the BHW. It can be sourced in North America and, as it is for a 4-cylinder TDI, should have no issues with oil squirter location.

If you can find an Eaton TV-S supercharger from a 3.0 Audi and adapt it to the 4-cylinder, it would be an excellent combination as a twin-charger setup with it blowing into a turbocharger. Furthermore, done this way (putting the turbocharger as the second-stage), only a small turbo is needed like a GT1749VC (I learned that this has a 3rd Gen VNT and cross-references as a GTB1749VM.

If it's not to be pushed too hard, a G60 would not have the flow capacity to support any more power level that a single turbo can as the first stage of a twin-charge system, and the added compressor work from putting it as the second stage downstream of a turbo would also compromise reliability and durability.

Pat Dolan · Nov 23, 2010

I had not really consider PD engines, but destroking a four valve with a 1.8T crank starts to look most effective. I was thinking of going M-TDI if using ALH, but going PD would mean all of the computer junk along for the ride.

Quite a few possibilities, that is obvious. It will take a while to really sort out the results, and meanwhile a Hayabusa is about the price of a set of custom rods.......hmmmmmm.

Rub87 · Nov 23, 2010

you can buy cheap standalone controller for PD, all the vw fun cup beetle tdi's use these, it's made in france somewhere

bhtooefr · Nov 23, 2010

Wait, there's nothing stopping you from putting an ALH head on, even if it's a PD block, right? And the PD pistons will work fine with an ALH... Or would there be issues once it's bored out with that setup?

mk3pd · Nov 23, 2010

G60ING said:
There were some early 2L FSI turbo motors with aluminum blocks. Is there any chance you can use one of these for a light weight tdi or is the strength a concern? Contact INA as I think he bought one from ecode parts (formerly owned by an NGP owner) before they went belly up.

You should contact INA just because he loves building crazy hybrid engines using factory parts.

G60s are great for lower RPMS and lower CFMs. But they are beautiful sounding stump pulling machines when running good. I never had troubles with my G60 and it had a custom case and many other upgrades that made mine very unique.

The alu block has only a 220mm block height,so the rods has to be VERY short.
Not a good solution.
That block also came with a 82.50mm bore
It's a alublock available over here in Europe with 81mm bore,but it is still a 220mm height on it.
It's much easier to just destroke the ALH

mk3pd · Nov 23, 2010

TDIMeister said:
@Geir: Does the ACV piston have the cut out for the oil squirter in the same place as the 4-cylinder TDIs, or does the different placement apply only to the Crafter pistons?

The ACV pistons have no oil cooling channel. Therefore I would prefer pistons from the BHW. It can be sourced in North America and, as it is for a 4-cylinder TDI, should have no issues with oil squirter location.

If you can find an Eaton TV-S supercharger from a 3.0 Audi and adapt it to the 4-cylinder, it would be an excellent combination as a twin-charger setup with it blowing into a turbocharger. Furthermore, done this way (putting the turbocharger as the second-stage), only a small turbo is needed like a GT1749VC (I learned that this has a 3rd Gen VNT and cross-references as a GTB1749VM.

If it's not to be pushed too hard, a G60 would not have the flow capacity to support any more power level that a single turbo can as the first stage of a twin-charge system, and the added compressor work from putting it as the second stage downstream of a turbo would also compromise reliability and durability.

The ACV pistons has the squirters on the other side,but since the rods will be 4.5mm longer the squirters will probably not hit anyway.
If they do,it will just require minimal grinding off the skirt.
But yeah,maybe the BHW is a better option regarding oil cooled crown

mk3pd · Nov 23, 2010

Pat Dolan said:
I had not really consider PD engines, but destroking a four valve with a 1.8T crank starts to look most effective. I was thinking of going M-TDI if using ALH, but going PD would mean all of the computer junk along for the ride.

Quite a few possibilities, that is obvious. It will take a while to really sort out the results, and meanwhile a Hayabusa is about the price of a set of custom rods.......hmmmmmm.

M-TDI would remove alot of electronics for sure
Not sure how to get that to work decent with a VNT Turbo though.
A custom rod set is around 650euro

Pat Dolan · Nov 24, 2010

TDIMeister said:
If you can find an Eaton TV-S supercharger from a 3.0 Audi and adapt it to the 4-cylinder, it would be an excellent combination as a twin-charger setup with it blowing into a turbocharger. Furthermore, done this way (putting the turbocharger as the second-stage), only a small turbo is needed like a GT1749VC (I learned that this has a 3rd Gen VNT and cross-references as a GTB1749VM.

The pickup truck guys (and others) compound the life out of everything..but it leaves me with two questions: Does the typical turbo really have the sealing capacity (thinking of VNT15 or 17 in this case) not to pressurize the crankcase through the bearing cartridge? Secondly: I am unsure of how the nozzle control would be commanded using such a turbo either ahead or behind another pump in series.

If it's not to be pushed too hard, a G60 would not have the flow capacity to support any more power level that a single turbo can as the first stage of a twin-charge system, and the added compressor work from putting it as the second stage downstream of a turbo would also compromise reliability and durability.

That's why I am more Eaton oriented (not to mention, they are cheap) as a second stage. Hadn't really thought of one as first stage (my reasoning there is that a smaller/lighter roots would be required due to higher air density in second stage, and no sealing issues)

Pat Dolan · Nov 24, 2010

mk3pd said:
M-TDI would remove alot of electronics for sure
Not sure how to get that to work decent with a VNT Turbo though.

In reality, if I go B Mod, I will probably build a fairly mild engine for the first season, but simplicity is the rule. If I were to use a VNT, I would probably build a pressure diaphragm for control.....or use something from a 2.0/2.2 Chrysler (that I think were mechanically controlled).

A custom rod set is around 650euro

As is a crashed Hayabusa

Alcaid · Nov 24, 2010

Is a rod/stroke ratio of 1.75 the most optimal then?

TDIMeister · Nov 24, 2010

The truth is, unless you're maniacally committed to building a Diesel entry in A-Mod or B-Mod simply for the heck of it, it's hard to make a cost/performance argument over a `Busa engine-based race car. There's even at least one company that builds a V8 based on 2 Hayabusa cylinder heads on a custom block and crank for open-wheeled race cars that makes 450 HP @ 9500 RPM naturally-aspirated from 2.6 L displacement!!

My rationale for placing the supercharger as the first stage (which is what VW does in the 1.4 TSI) is because if you do it in reverse, the supercharger is receiving hot, pre-compressed air from the turbo. The resulting compressor work will be very high -- and that work must be transmitted via the drive belt (strong enough?) and comes directly off crank power, thus reducing the mechanical efficiency. Also, Rootes blowers (the newest Eaton TV-S specifically are excepted) have notoriously low adiabatic efficiencies compared to a good and well-matched turbocharger; the poor efficiency will further compound charge temperatures and the aforementioned compressor work.

Pressure migrating through the turbo CHRA to the engine crankcase is a non issue.

Control of everything is the crux of the issue. If it were so easy, everyone would do it. I am consulting an aerospace company on two-stage turbocharging a certified Diesel engine to maintain sea-level power at 22,000 ft. Overall compressor pressure ratio would approach 6.

mk3pd · Nov 24, 2010

Alcaid said:
Is a rod/stroke ratio of 1.75 the most optimal then?

That is the Million dollar question
Some say the higher the better,some others have a "golden rule" for what it is supposed to be.
In the real world it does not make that much of a difference unless it is at the very end of either high or low.
High ratio will slow the mean piston speed and give the piston some more time at TDC

TDIMeister · Nov 24, 2010

Mean piston speed is not affected by L/R ratio, only RPM and stroke length. But L/R ratio will affect peak piston speed and acceleration.

ryanp · Nov 24, 2010

Pat,

Are you considering an inline pump with adjustable timing? the ve pump wont like anything above 6-7000rpm for a long time, something you should be aiming for with this build.

basically copy the tractor pull guys but hold it together for more than a few minutes, lol!

Pat Dolan · Nov 24, 2010

ryanp said:
Pat,

Are you considering an inline pump with adjustable timing? the ve pump wont like anything above 6-7000rpm for a long time, something you should be aiming for with this build.

basically copy the tractor pull guys but hold it together for more than a few minutes, lol!

Was thinking of a 12mm when I can figure out the boost situation. Have an extra 11mm VE, maybe convert it to M-TDI to start. 6 grand would be the high side, and keep in mind, a day's racing is at the most 20 minutes running time, of which only 5 are on the track. Big revs and big power are not what wins solo events, INSTANT throttle response, linear response and flat torque curve are what it takes to stay on the edge 100% of the a pass.

Dave: the "why" thing is all about my eldest daughter's work. She is a grad student doing bio lube research in the department where bioD is a big deal (canola based...canola for that matter was also invented in her department). She feels guilty driving a gasser anywhere, anytime.

Engine spec list??

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