2009 Cold Start Scare/Problem?

Giddy-up said:

Has anyone had the issue at hand fixed by a dealer?...
What was the cause?...

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Like I mentioned earlier but got swept away...

Dealer had mine in for same symptoms recently.
They inspected intercooler pipes and found sludge/frost buildup. Not much in my opinion, but there was some. They defrosted the car and removed intake pipe and blocked it off with duct tape.

Car has been fine so far. I requested the Flash 2020606 and they complied.

No further response on a permanent fix yet, but this is working so far.

Could condensation be causing some valves in the induction system to be stuck closed? Sort of like when the ALH engines would get a stuck anti-shudder valve. If moisture is causing the electrically controlled flappers to freeze closed it may be sending a error signal to the ECM and resulting in start failure.

I don't think the issue is with the fuel per se,,, but it could very possibly be due to moisture that has accumulated and ultimately frozen on some critical flapper.

Some cars came with cold weather air filters. Mine has a spongy cover over the element and VW sells two different filters - one with the prefilter and one without. Are the cars with the freeze problem using the cold weather filters?

What if you could incorperate an electric air intake heater into the intake hoses of the 09 Jetta. Does anyone think that would resolve the no start problem? Part #5 in the parts diagram. The diagram doesn't really show the electric element that is used to heat the intake air.

Dweisel

Intake Heating Element

I think some Cummins diesel engines use an intake heating element as opposed to GPs, for starting. So I dont think it would be a stretch to apply it to a TDI as an extra cold starting component.

Yes, but would it help in the no start problem? That intake heater is on a J Deere 3520 Compact Utility tractor that does not have glow plugs for starting. Funny thing is they still use the glow plug symbol dash light.

Dweisel

Dagw00d said:

Like I mentioned earlier but got swept away...

Dealer had mine in for same symptoms recently.
They inspected intercooler pipes and found sludge/frost buildup. Not much in my opinion, but there was some. They defrosted the car and removed intake pipe and blocked it off with duct tape.

Car has been fine so far. I requested the Flash 2020606 and they complied.

No further response on a permanent fix yet, but this is working so far.

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Perhaps if the cars were driven far enough to get them fully warmed up it would help. I am talking about fully warming the oil, not just getting the idiot temp gauge to stand straight up. It takes longer than you think to get it to operating temps in cool weather. There should be no frost in the pressurized part of the intake, IMO. (in a warmed up, running engine)

Are these cars being short driven on the last cycle before the problem manifests itself? Need some more data, guys.

Bill

Our cold start problem occured the morning after it was driven 20 minutes of highway driving. My wifes usual 1 way commute time.

40X40 said:

Perhaps if the cars were driven far enough to get them fully warmed up it would help. I am talking about fully warming the oil, not just getting the idiot temp gauge to stand straight up. It takes longer than you think to get it to operating temps in cool weather. There should be no frost in the pressurized part of the intake, IMO. (in a warmed up, running engine)
Are these cars being short driven on the last cycle before the problem manifests itself? Need some more data, guys.
Bill

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My last cycle prior to the hard-start/no-start was 60 highway miles at 65mph w/ no issues, no warning lights, etc. However, the car sat unused for several days after that with temperature fluctuations (including snow/thaw). It appears that dealer is saying the fuel injectors are "stuck open" and therefore dumping fuel.

Useful?

'09 JSW manual

Additional event specific conditions information.

Heres alot of weather condition factors related to the morning of our cold start problem: http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/WXDailyHistory.asp?ID=KILDUNFE1&month=12&day=12&year=2009

My car was "short driven" the night before the no start. Drove about 4 miles in 20 degrees temps, next morning was a bit warmer. Car has been with the dealer for 7 days and they are waiting for a replacement MAF sensor. I told him how this appears to be a very widespread problem with the 09 TDI and he said that VW is aware of it and they've got the head people working on it. Meanwhile I'm stuck driving a Prius

Originally posted by 40x40
Are these cars being short driven on the last cycle before the problem manifests itself? Need some more data, guys.

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When it happened to my wife, she drove a cold engine for about 4-5 miles (probably enough to warm the coolant, but not the engine oil) and stopped for about 30-40 minutes of shopping. Came back and tried to start (air temp was 37F) and had the violent shuddering, stalling and refusal to start problem.

40X40 said:

Perhaps if the cars were driven far enough to get them fully warmed up it would help. I am talking about fully warming the oil, not just getting the idiot temp gauge to stand straight up. It takes longer than you think to get it to operating temps in cool weather. There should be no frost in the pressurized part of the intake, IMO. (in a warmed up, running engine)

Are these cars being short driven on the last cycle before the problem manifests itself? Need some more data, guys.

Bill

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Yes, in my case. Drove 2 miles then let it sit five hours. Starting problem occurred. Drove 2 miles home, let it sit overnight, starting problem occurred. Drove 350 miles w/o a problem. Drove a few blocks, let it sit two hours, starting problem occurred.

Dealer has fed all the codes to VW and their techs are working with the VW heavies, who are now obviously aware of this problem. They're talking "Mass Airflow System problem," but haven't determined an action plan yet. It seems that last week dealers were throwing parts at these cars, but now seem to be aware of the pattern, and the lack of a pattern in response strategies.

I drove mine 45 miles at 45-60mph in 18 degree weather, parked it for 12 hours, temp was 37 when I started it. It shook for 30-45 seconds smoothed right out, have yet to have a problem with temps down to 7.

I'm not a mechanic, but I'm wondering what difference in the new engine could make it susceptible to this "cold start" glitch, while previous engines seem unaffected. If it's moisture in the air intake, is the intake mechanism that different from older models? If its fuel injectors, the same question. It's 35 degrees with 85 percent humidity right now and my car's been sitting all night. I'll think I'll go and try to start it.

securityguy said:

Just left my house early this morning and it was 16 degrees. Car started up like it was the middle of a hot summer day. I believe I can sum my experience up in one word...OPTI-LUBE

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In my opinion, Opti-lube has nothing to do with the problem at hand. I do not use the opti-lube product and I live in area which seems to be prone to cold humid weather: something that I think is a common thing for most people with the problem. My vehicle starts without any issue every time even after short driving. Perhaps the issue is with the MFA sensors getting "wrong readings" due to cold, humid air.

This morning, it was 31 degrees/89% humidity, frost everywhere and all over the car. I also power washed it late last night with warm misty water then drove home (6 miles) and shut her down for the night. This morning, ignition on, glow plug light for 3 seconds, fired right up. Same every cold morning going on two winters now. Must be the PowerService.

Careful Elf - I was made fun of and mocked when I stated that I thought it was the Opti-Lube

Well, after reading this thread I have a smile on my face. I'm from Yellowknife and was going to post a picture of my MFD showing -40 c. For about two weeks we had temperatures in that range which is normal for this time of year. We will have it again too, but right now it's a balmy -20 c.

My 09 JSW is outside, not garage stored. When plugged in, even at minus 40, it starts like it's a summer day. On one occassion, it wasn't plugged in and the wife came back saying it wouldn't start. It was about -24 so I was skeptical. Went down, turned it over for about 10 seconds and it caught. Ran rough for about 10 seconds then settled down. I usually let it run for a full minute before driving. At minus 40 I was very pleased to observe the DSG shifted perfectly, and has performed perfectly all winter.

At below -28 the engine will not reach normal operating temperature no matter how much you drive (at least in town). Above that it will warm up slowly. If you have two minutes, and idle the engine at 25 to 3000 the engine will reach normal temperature. Once you start driving it will cool off, so I need to get a cold air intake blocker, and will.

Also, quick note on winter tires as I know there are a lot of people asking, I bought Nordfrost 5's and have had no trouble. With the stability control and those tires it performs perfectly, even on straight ice. The tires I got are studded at the factory. Each stud is tipped like a flathead screwdriver, steel carbide, very effective.

I just returned from a drive at 37 F, 85% relative humidity, a slushy damp raw day. The car has less than a quarter tank of fuel (and I don't use an additive), sat all night after a short drive last night, was driven only 5 miles, parked for less than an hour, restarted and driven home. Each time it started right up and ran smoothly and without incident. I'm not gloating. I think there must be a defective part (or should I say temperamental) or malfunctioning sensor in those cars that have starting problems under the aforementioned conditions. The temperature and humidity appear to be crucial but simply can't be the only cause. And I don't think it's fuel related or caused by lack of any special additive. Like I said in my earlier post, I'm not a mechanic, but I believe there's always a logical answer when it comes to machinery (unlike religion or politics or matters of the heart or good taste).

securityguy said:

Careful Elf - I was made fun of and mocked when I stated that I thought it was the Opti-Lube

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You missed my sense of humor then.

...boy...thank God! For a while there...I wasn't sure anyone on this forum had a sense of humor

Elfnmagik said:

This morning, it was 31 degrees/89% humidity, frost everywhere and all over the car. I also power washed it late last night with warm misty water then drove home (6 miles) and shut her down for the night. This morning, ignition on, glow plug light for 3 seconds, fired right up. Same every cold morning going on two winters now. Must be the PowerService.

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Just a note of caution about power washing with freezing temperatures. I did a coin-op wash this week in -5C (17F) and starting my car after spraying it sounded really rough!

"Are these cars being short driven on the last cycle before the problem manifests itself? Need some more data, guys.

Bill"

I drove about 40 miles (mixed between highway and city) and then parked my car for 2 days. Like I said before its been running fine since, we're coming up on some sleet this Friday so we'll see how things go. I did talk to my dealer and he stated that he'll back me 100% if she fails to start again.

From Doctor Dawgs Bentley Manual Thread

Doctor Dawg brought up an interesting factoid just over the way: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=2806547&postcount=6 I wonder if not opening the door switch all the way or sticking might be causing somethings not to jive sometimes. Check it out.

dzcad90 said:

As for the issue at hand..

I've owned three TDIs for well over 300K miles combined. All of them ran like a bag of ass in the cold winter. I didn't have the priviledge of having a garage when I lived with my folks, so all of the nights with the '97 (1Z) and a lot of nights with the '03 (ALH) have made me pretty much expect rough running when cold.

I've had my '09 sit outside all day at work at 3 - 9 degrees and fire right up. The following night it stayed in my garage (average 35-40 degrees) and ran rough, died, started up again and ran rough but smoothed out.

I think what is causing the dying after starting though is the same thing that makes new drivers of the 3 pedal variety stall out a lot.. If the ECU detects that the engine is running under a certain RPM, it kills the engine. Running rough doesn't always get the engine up to operating RPM, and by the time the ECU catches this it kills the engine.

As for the root cause of the issue I don't know what to say. Fuel pump losing prime, Piezo-Electric injectors not working at lower temps / when cold soaked, ECU not delivering fuel as a result of a temperature sensor input?

I don't know. All just gueses.

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My 2003 ALH tdi always started quickly (even when temperatures dipped slightly below zero) and ran well. Now, when it went below -10 F last winter, it was a different story --- so much so that I seriously considered installing a frost heater. I would imagine it gets a lot colder in your neck of the woods then mine though. I can't comment on my 1998 AHU tdi as it has not gotten below 20 degrees F yet.

Cold starts and idling from my perspective are a function of: (1) good battery; (2) proper tune; and (3) good injector & fuel delivery. It really is where the rubber meets the road maintenance wise or lack of maintenance wise. The "OL" stuff is entertaining and all but absent some support for the claims being made it seems more along the lines of a few feeling the plazebo effect.

solartempest said:

Just a note of caution about power washing with freezing temperatures. I did a coin-op wash this week in -5C (17F) and starting my car after spraying it sounded really rough!

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It was about 50F when I washed it the night before.

Both my no start scares came after over an hour of driving, then sitting for a 12hr shift.

Which is my normal routine.

Outside temps had risen from around 8 c below freezing to just above freezing.

no start

The day before my no start I ran my car through a car wash and then drove twenty minutes home on roads with inttermittent slush. Next morning it would not turn over. It's clear from this thread that I had a cylinder full of water. Between the moisture and temperature it created the "perfect storm " . Until a fix is determined this car won't leave my garage during the parameters described by myself or others in this thread.

I'm wondering if the exhaust flapper valve doesn't like the weather, especially since it's in a not very favorable position. Maybe they're sticking.

El Dobro said:

I'm wondering if the exhaust flapper valve doesn't like the weather, especially since it's in a not very favorable position. Maybe they're sticking.

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It is worth considering.

Bill