vw tdi kit car - Page 5

jlphil · November 19th, 2009, 11:55

FWIW, many of us have built FFR products, and have a great deal of faith in Mark Smith's engineering cred. I've built three FFR Roadsters over the years, have been itching to build again, and have been wanting to replace my Prius commuter with something less appliance-like, but also "green". So, when Mark's new TDI-based concept appeared, it was a no-thinker for me. I'm in.

If you haven't seen an FFR build yet, there's probably someone building one in your town, and we are a notoriously friendly bunch, glad to show you our projects, underway or completed. You can visit websites many builders use to post pics of their builds. You'll see the tubular steel frame/laser-cut aluminum sheet/donor-parts construction model Mark is working with here. (UPDATE: I believe Mark's plan for the TDI car will involve fiberglass sandwich panels rather than extensive aluminum, with steel tubing frame components attached to either end of the sawed-off unibody) You can get addys for builders or their websites at www.ffcobra.com. The picture site for my most-recent FFR build is not the best, but you're welcome to visit it at http://imageevent.com/jlphil/ffrmarkiiibuild to see some of what I'm trying to describe. The point being that regular motorheads can build this thing, using regular tools and intelligence.

I'm hoping to get a LOT of TDI education from this forum, and help in finding a suitable donor car. Thanks in advance, this will be a blast. John Phillips, Jupiter, FL

slapshotjh · November 20th, 2009, 07:00

Hey just found this thread. Do Jim and Jesper still work there? I went to school with them (RPI). If they are still around tell them Jon Harriman says hello!

fact5 · November 21st, 2009, 04:56

jesper and jim have been there since they graduated....10 years?

time flies...two of the best auto engineers in the world.

mark

HoneyBeetle · November 21st, 2009, 06:38

I haven't read all these posts, however......I'd like to see an affordable TDI car kit for every-day people with very good "written" instructions. It would be a really nice touch to have a good manual or book of instructions written by a technical writer who understands how to write well for everyday people with limited mechanical experience.

Oh, with that said, you absolutely NEED (minimally) a legal waiver of liability and a good lawyer to research the laws on this too. Don't assume a "kit" will ward off liability. There are other issues under negligence and other tort laws, contracts, property law, and maybe RMV regulation, or more that may apply. These legal restrictions MAY make a difference in how a kit would be engineered. It depends. I hate to see anyone miss something important up-front and get hurt. Just think about it and ask your attorney if you want to be safe, ok?

I can't help in the engineering, but if anyone needs a little help working out a legal detail or two, feel free to PM or email me.

ChippedNotBroken · November 21st, 2009, 07:17

Or, how about just putting a disclaimer that says, if you don't know your ass from your elbow when it comes to putting things together, best to hand this project off to someone who does. ie...

Quote:

www.local-motors.com is a start up headed by jay rogers with ffr as the first investor. They crowd source designs for cars and then design them ffr style for production...the difference is that it is not home built...you build the car in their micro factories around the country with factory technicians. Cool company with a unique vision.

As for the other stuff, how bout, experimental - use at your own risk. I suppose for those of us living in the NE that may be too much to hope for but we can always dream. As for me I am tired of watching pools, parks and just about every fun thing under the sun get shut down because of legal concerns. Eliminate all risk and what do you have? A prison.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoneyBeetle

I haven't read all these posts, however......I'd like to see an affordable TDI car kit for every-day people with very good "written" instructions. It would be a really nice touch to have a good manual or book of instructions written by a technical writer who understands how to write well for everyday people with limited mechanical experience.

Oh, with that said, you absolutely NEED (minimally) a legal waiver of liability and a good lawyer to research the laws on this too. Don't assume a "kit" will ward off liability. There are other issues under negligence and other tort laws, contracts, property law, and maybe RMV regulation, or more that may apply. These legal restrictions MAY make a difference in how a kit would be engineered. It depends. I hate to see anyone miss something important up-front and get hurt. Just think about it and ask your attorney if you want to be safe, ok?

I can't help in the engineering, but if anyone needs a little help working out a legal detail or two, feel free to PM or email me.

HoneyBeetle · November 21st, 2009, 09:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChippedNotBroken

Or, how about just putting a disclaimer that says, if you don't know your ass from your elbow when it comes to putting things together, best to hand this project off to someone who does. ie...

As for the other stuff, how bout, experimental - use at your own risk. I suppose for those of us living in the NE that may be too much to hope for but we can always dream. As for me I am tired of watching pools, parks and just about every fun thing under the sun get shut down because of legal concerns. Eliminate all risk and what do you have? A prison.

Good point Chip..., and also helping people have better info and a safer world isn't a bad idea. I believe manufacturing "fun" project cars, with safety in mind, also helps us to be a better society, in general. Staying a cut above China, or other manufacturers who seem not to include safe or reasonably safe into the mfg equation, perhaps US and CANADA engineering should be and is better.

Why not always strive for better, quality and "safe" products. The safe, yet fun aspect is aways a challenge, you are correct. Challenges are not often for the weak at heart. Those who do their best to rise to a higher plateau of engineering with concern for others tend to be better engieers, in my opinion. Fun need not be sacrificed.

Also, a little reasonable thought invested into safety may save your house and life savings. Liability suits can be sticky.

Reasons to believe (for your liesure reading pleasure):

http://www.demayolaw.com/lawyer-attorney-1227417.html

http://www.articlesnatch.com/Article...rmation/821655

Read the info from the SEC re: law suits initiated against Shelby

http://sec.edgar-online.com/carroll-.../section2.aspx

Kit Car magazine posted waiver of liability:

https://customkitcarmagazine.com/Ter...97acd76a470168

How to initiate a law suit against manufactures of a defective "kit" car product:

http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/ho...er--68257.html

Station Nightclub Fire in Warwick, RI (example of owner, manufacture, rock band liability [who would have known?] -- negligence, product liability and criminal and civil liability):

As of August 2008, nearly $175 million has been offered to the families of the victims of the fire by various defendants in settlement.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast...ightclub.fire/

http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com...club-fire.html

ChippedNotBroken · November 21st, 2009, 13:48

Nice of you to illustrate my point for me. That said, I am not saying there is no place for lawsuits against people that disregard the safety of their customers by failing to provide the basic implied safety requirements of their product or service. What I am saying is that there should be a higher bar, and if you are going to do something inherently dangerous (skiing, horseback riding, hang gliding, rock climbing, or driving experimental cars) then you should be ready to man up, if things go wrong.

As an example, I almost died in a motorcycle accident, still have a metal rod in my right leg so I won't be going going skiing, or several other things that I used to enjoy. Was it the other drivers fault, was there a problem with the motorcycle, were the roads properly maintained etc... ad nauseum. I don't really care, won't fix my leg.

Driving a motorcycle is inherently dangerous, I had insurance and took precautions to protect myself from financial loss. Had I died that would have sucked, especially for those I left behind, but I took my chances (as we all do, driving ANY motor vehicle is, perhaps, the most dangerous thing humans have ever done on a persons killed basis) every time I put on my helmut (not required in PA, but ya gotta be REALLY stupid to drive without one).

One other point, I said that it was a pipe dream to think you could do anything in the NE without checking with a lawyer first. Sad fact of life that we aren't much better off than prisoners asking the warden for permission to persue our passions, without which what's the point of it all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoneyBeetle

Reasons to believe (for your liesure reading pleasure):

http://www.demayolaw.com/lawyer-attorney-1227417.html

http://www.articlesnatch.com/Article...rmation/821655

Read the info from the SEC re: law suits initiated against Shelby

http://sec.edgar-online.com/carroll-.../section2.aspx

Kit Car magazine posted waiver of liability:

https://customkitcarmagazine.com/Ter...97acd76a470168

How to initiate a law suit against manufactures of a defective "kit" car product:

http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/ho...er--68257.html

Station Nightclub Fire in Warwick, RI (example of owner, manufacture, rock band liability [who would have known?] -- negligence, product liability and criminal and civil liability):

As of August 2008, nearly $175 million has been offered to the families of the victims of the fire by various defendants in settlement.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast...ightclub.fire/

http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com...club-fire.html

fact5 · November 21st, 2009, 14:24

chipped...i agree.

Great discussion for 1995 when I started but after shipping over 8000 car kits and paying up to a million a year some years in legal fees I am probably pretty educated about the car business in the USA..not trying to be a wise guy....just live it daily at factory five.

If you cant turn a wrench dont build a car. At least do it with somebody who knows something about cars...seems simple. The big three and the other major car companies are there to service the non builders in the world....this car is about building something special yourself....thats what hot rodders do. We as motorheads like it and have fun doing it while accepting that if we dont do the brakes well the car will crash...but we do brake jobs anyway and trust our own hands over those of others

Local motors is going on a path midway between the builders like us kit guys and the big car companies..he is well funded and it should be quite a ride.

Regarding my new tdi kit....the bulk of the car is factory engineered and should make it very dependable but you are still undergoing a masssive project in which your life is in your hands...thats part of the cool deal...you build it. great feedback and I cant wait to finish up the prototype to see what you guys think.

mark smith
www.twitter.com/factoryfive

HoneyBeetle · November 21st, 2009, 15:14

Yes, Chip I understand there is some risk we all take. It's reasonable, under the circumstances. Just be careful, that's all. I hate to see anyone get hurt simply because someone was not aware of something important.

Sounds like Mark has had some experience. I'm not sure about the legal fees (that's quite a bit), why not have in-house counsel?

Simply bringing out a point, even if a custom kit is built by the driver, consider the passengers or others on the road. It would not be fun if your wife or best friend took it for a drive and there was some type of failure that could have been avoided had there been better, more contentious, up-front engineering, that's all.

Perhaps I'm stating the obvious to most, maybe not. Either way, I did my best to advise, that's all. Take it or leave it, just be careful. I share the road with kit cars.....and my mom and dad, my sons and daughters too. I think they are wicked sweet, I also want custom cars to be safe for all, k?

Take care and God Speed!

cpoore · November 21st, 2009, 15:31

Big businesses run our country and our laws. Its a sad joke. You got people with more rights that break the rules, whether white collar or crooks. Not much difference.
I got Chronic Liver Disease... guess what. I have one option for health insurance from the company I was using before and its coverage offer is at 70% of my previous coverage for 4 times the cost ($1000mo for just me - not the rest of my family of four). Big businesses help make laws and policies to screw us over - let them all sink and go down the drain. I'm lucky in that my work provided partial salary so I can afford it, barley. All the stupid lawsuits and crap is just stupid. In my profession, I'm met more than one foreigner that just laugh at us for all the suing and think we are all little childish greedy people. I think the term they used was "sue happy americans".

jlphil · November 21st, 2009, 18:30

Got a potential donor on the radar, 1999 Jetta Mk4 diesel 5 spd. Any specific cautions to watch out for? It's a decent driver. The idea would be to drive it for work commutes until using it for the MM donor. Give me time to scope out the mechanicals/electronics and make any mods early before disassembly.

Any reason to hold out for a later-year Mk4? Thanks for any ideas.

ChippedNotBroken · November 22nd, 2009, 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlphil

Got a potential donor on the radar, 1999 Jetta Mk4 diesel 5 spd. Any specific cautions to watch out for? It's a decent driver. The idea would be to drive it for work commutes until using it for the MM donor. Give me time to scope out the mechanicals/electronics and make any mods early before disassembly.

Any reason to hold out for a later-year Mk4? Thanks for any ideas.

I have the 99.5 jetta. It is something of a hybrid and as such has a few mechanical quirks that don't always allow you to use all the A4 bits, but the biggest drawback (advantage?) is the ECU. In order to chip a 99.5 ECU it must be removed and soldered into the board, whereas later ECU's can be reprogramed via the vag-comm port. That said, the later ECU's have an immobilizer chip and the keys are a bit more difficult to duplicate.

The Map sensor is in a different (better?) place on the 99.5. It uses a different Glow plug harness (a bit more simple than later models), shift linkage is not quite as nice (IMO) as the later models. etc...

That said, not sure the differences would make much of a difference in a project like this, unless the chip programming became an issue for some reason.

Honeydew · November 22nd, 2009, 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlphil

I'm hoping to get a LOT of TDI education from this forum, and help in finding a suitable donor car. Thanks in advance, this will be a blast. John Phillips, Jupiter, FL

I'm almost finished parting out a non-wrecked 01 Jetta TDI, if you want the carcass send me a private message.

WolfTDI · November 22nd, 2009, 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlphil

Got a potential donor on the radar, 1999 Jetta Mk4 diesel 5 spd. Any specific cautions to watch out for? It's a decent driver. The idea would be to drive it for work commutes until using it for the MM donor. Give me time to scope out the mechanicals/electronics and make any mods early before disassembly.

Any reason to hold out for a later-year Mk4? Thanks for any ideas.

John, thanks for looking at my Jetta for sale and telling me about your plans to use it as a donor.

I haven't been able to stop reading this thread and almost ruined dinner!

Mark, I am in! I have been waiting for a project just like this. If you can keep it in the ballpark of $10k, I am ready. I have a Golf that needs a new headliner, so why not get out the Sawzall?
BTW, I love the motto: Go green but go fast. You should have the copy rights to that one!

ARCJr · November 22nd, 2009, 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by WolfTDI

BTW, I love the motto: Go green but go fast. You should have the copy rights to that one!

Hmmm, maybe you SHOULD register that or trademark it as the official motto of Smyth Performance...