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Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > Alternative Diesel Fuels (Biodiesel, WVO, SVO, BTL, GTL etc)

Alternative Diesel Fuels (Biodiesel, WVO, SVO, BTL, GTL etc) Discussions about alternative fuels for use in our TDI's. This includes biodiesel WVO (Waste Vegetable Oil), SVO (Straight Vegetable Oil), BTL (Biomass to Liquid), GTL (Gas to Liquids) etc. Please note the Fuel Disclaimer.

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Old October 20th, 2009, 10:35   #1
joeperry25
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Location: Hazel Green, AL
TDI(s): 2000 Jetta
Default WVO setup in 2000 TDI

Okay before we start, I am going to run WVO in this vehicle. I don't need to be talked out of it or for someone to attempt to convince me otherwise. SO here is where I am at

I jsut recently rebuilt my 2000 ALH due to a turbo failure followed by a runaway engine (01m go figure) that my son was driving. For the record this motor has never had wvo in it prior to rebuid, only a few tanks of bio was it. Motor is a fresh build even including new pistons. Motor now has about 1100 miles on it on dino and is running fine. I plan to run only dino or bio for first 10k miles. After that though I plan to install a hopefully well thought out setup. My point here is to list what I have done and what I intend to do and get any additions to the list. I believe in the technology when done right and have been successfully been doing it in other vehicles for years.

So far, the injectors are rebuilt and and pop is properly set, a new set of Bosch glow plugs are installed. I am installing a egt gauge, boost gauge, and oil pressure gauge this week (some unrelated I know but had to fill the a-pillar pod up :-) ) From my readings, I need to do a fuel temp sensor mod with a resistor, and advance the timing a bit (i think that was recommended).

My home setup is I settle oil for 2-4 weeks and also centrifuge it before putting it in the final holding tank. It may sit there awhile to since my pup and 93 Jetta only sip on the stuff. My final filter after centrifuge on the pump is 2 micron as it goes into the tank (prob not needed, but I am paranoid).

My car setup will be two tank system system (in tank heat exchanger of course) with hose in hose all the way to the engine bay, then into a fphe then into a heated fuel filter. This of course will feed two 3 way valves. Other than that I am open for ideas. Today on my IDI pup, i purge 30-60 seconds and drive 2 miles before shutting down and I intend to mimic this on the Jetta.

Again, please refrain from trying to tell me how bad WVO is and to not use it. The purpose of this thread is to gather relevant information for my conversion and nothing more. I have ran bio-diesel and like it but I choose to run WVO. I know my motor (heck I rebuilt my motor), and want to make this a successful conversion. It can be done, it has been done by many. If it breaks, I'll fix it. :-) One good thing here is I am starting with a clean slate and everything is up to par for the conversion. Some may ask why put oil in a new motor. Simply put, because I choose to :-) Not trying to be cocky or snippy, I just read some of the threads on there and they get pretty rough, so I thought I would get my punches in upfront before I get flamed :-)
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Old October 20th, 2009, 10:59   #2
kemcd
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Default 75k on WVO and no problems

I have been 2 yrs w/ wvo on my 2002 Jetta TDI. The only problem I have had was before i got my centrifuge and rushed the filtering step. I built my kit with components from dif. companies. A couple of things that have worked well for me and might be woth googling are, Hot Fox Fuel warmer, Turbofryer heated filter VegMax and vegtherm. Plantdrive has some good products. The hot fox makes it so you do not need to do the HOH. The vegtherm prevents any oil getting to inj. pump that isn't 160 degrees hot yet. Good luck.
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Old October 20th, 2009, 11:12   #3
UFO
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Where does your purge flow?
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Old October 20th, 2009, 11:36   #4
T'sTDI
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Joe-

Sounds to me like your an excellent candidate for WVO, anal retentive just like me However, and a big however, you just rebuilt and engine and it is not broken in yet. I'm not exactly sure how long it takes for a TDI engine to break in but I've heard up to 50k. That maybe a bit extreme, but anything less than 10k on an engine may suffer compromised compression pressures due to not being broken in, and therefore, an EXTREMELY BAD thing when messing with WVO. I would get 10-15k put on the car before thinking about WVO. Maybe someone else could comment on that???

Obviously you have been reading my threads regarding the fuel temp sendor mod and increasing timing. Most of my stuff is laid out in the "Should you burn VO thread" but I would be more than happy to go into any detail through PM's.

I love the EGT gauge, I think I'm the only one here that has one on a WVO fed car. It is the best indication of combustion quality, and how I proved that the fuel temp resistor mod is indeed a must. Try it for yourself

Other things to consider, CCV reroute, EGR delete (another important one), injection line heaters and a lift pump.

I would highly recommend the Greasecar kit per your requirements stated in your post. Your requirements basically sums the GC kit up. Just buy the optional FPHE (should be standard). Don't worry about all the other BS people buy to put on their VO kits, all it does is make things much more complicated then what it needs to be. A GC kit w/ FPHE is absolutely sufficient for success. The other factor is the idiot factor that people tend to always screw up...

The GC kit, unless in the dead of winter, is pretty much always ready to inject once the engine gets to operating temperature (never inject before). I never operate my kit in the city, I only run my car on VO on the highway. I also allow 3-5 miles before my destination to not only purge with the kit, but to purge the engine clean of any residue (time to have fun with boost pressures and a fast car ) But don't think for one second I drive that way on VO, I've rarely ever gone past half throttle.

I feel like I say the same stuff all the time so for the sake of being redundant, its all there in old posts. Just send me a PM for any more detail.

And for the flaming and not being told to do it... good luck with that one, there will always be one that has to poke and prod, I assure you that
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Old October 20th, 2009, 12:00   #5
kemcd
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Default Purge

With 3 solonoids it purges back to the take via dedicated line. The reg return is looped back to the inj. pump. This is very important in making sure that heated oil isn't sent all the way back to the tank loosing heat. I use a 2 gallon start up tank that fits in my spare tire. Once things are up to 160 degrees it switches automatically.
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Old October 20th, 2009, 12:10   #6
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http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread...64#post2725764
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Old October 20th, 2009, 12:41   #7
UFO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemcd
With 3 solonoids it purges back to the take via dedicated line. The reg return is looped back to the inj. pump. This is very important in making sure that heated oil isn't sent all the way back to the tank loosing heat. I use a 2 gallon start up tank that fits in my spare tire. Once things are up to 160 degrees it switches automatically.
I'm not sure this is what you want. You NEVER want to contaminate your diesel with VO. The trade off is mixing diesel in with your VO.
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Old October 20th, 2009, 13:53   #8
joeperry25
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I thought about looping the return (at least an open loop) but the cross contamination issue came to mind. Still have to figure out the vale setup for teh purge cycle. I have a set of injector line heaters still just need some more silicone tape to reinstall with. I may heed the warning of waiting till I get 15 k on the motor instead of 10 just to be safe. It won't take long, heading from North AL to Southern Louisiana next week so they will add up quick. Guess I need to dust off my bio diesel processor and calculator to make some home-brew again to run on till then. Man that has been awhile :-)

Last edited by joeperry25; October 20th, 2009 at 13:59.
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Old October 21st, 2009, 06:28   #9
vwcampin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeperry25
I thought about looping the return (at least an open loop) but the cross contamination issue came to mind. Still have to figure out the vale setup for teh purge cycle. I have a set of injector line heaters still just need some more silicone tape to reinstall with. I may heed the warning of waiting till I get 15 k on the motor instead of 10 just to be safe. It won't take long, heading from North AL to Southern Louisiana next week so they will add up quick. Guess I need to dust off my bio diesel processor and calculator to make some home-brew again to run on till then. Man that has been awhile :-)
Take a look at the Greasecar set up. With two, 3 port valves you will not be cross-contaminating the diesel tank with WVO. You will send diesel back down the WVO line to the WVO tank. I would also recommend putting your WVO filter before your fuel loop, so that when you purge, you flush the WVO filter with diesel. That way when you flip to WVO, you are still running on diesel for some time until the WVO filter and WVO lines suck WVO back up from the pump. I also think insulating the HIH and all WVO lines. Pipe insulation from the hardware store is dirt cheap and works well.
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Old October 21st, 2009, 07:53   #10
joeperry25
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Thanks for the info. I plan to insulate the hose in hose. I like the idea of sending diesel back through the filter at purge. 2 x 3 ports is what I was planning on. I used a 6 port pollack originally on my pup and it gave me some issues, so I definitely believe in 2 x 3 ports now. Thanks again for the help.
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Old October 21st, 2009, 12:40   #11
T'sTDI
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The 6 port pollack has been cause of many car failures... Good idea, go with the 2 three port.
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Old October 25th, 2009, 16:22   #12
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Here are a couple of thoughts you might consider in terms of your design.

While I have no doubt that the resistor mod on the fuel temperture sensor works for keeping the ECU from retarding the ignition, so does physically moving the sensor out of the heated WVO path. I just lengthened the wires and moved it over next to the diesel fuel filter. Quick, easy and been working for me for over a year.

Second, there is a way to prevent cold WVO from getting to your engine right after switchover besides a Vegtherm. If you have a VO lift pump (and I think this is a must) and are looping the return (also a good idea, keeps the VO from overheating in the tank) you can use a third 3 port solenoid valve to allow VO to circulate and warm up before switchover. My three valves are stacked and mounted as close to the tandem pump as possible. Vo is going through the "warm-up" valve and T'ed into the VO return while the car is building heat, circulating the whole time by the VO lift pump. When the fuel temp sensor in this loop reports temp over 160F my controller switches automatically into VO mode. In other words, still using only waste heat via Hotfox in tank, Turbofyner coolant heated filter, HOH and FPHE for system, but car never gets cold oil injected.

Lastly, I came up with a simple way to purge the VO lines after a filter change. I simply added a manual 3-way fual selector valve in the return line near the tank and lift pump (always a good idea to keep pump near tank, they push better than pull, also prevents vacuum causing air leaking into lines). Normal run mode is the looped return, after a filter change I simply divert the return back to the tank to allow the lift pump and my 3rd "warm up" solenoid to purge all air from the filter and lines. Next time I drive the car i switch the manual valve back to looped return.

Good luck on your project!
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Old October 25th, 2009, 19:28   #13
joeperry25
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I like looping the oil as it warms up. I planned on doing that on the pup, but was worried about puling cold oil through the boost pump. When do u start looping back to the tank, after a few minutes of engine warm up? Thanks for the ideas. This is what I was hoping for, a kind of best practices. Thanks again
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Old October 26th, 2009, 09:25   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeperry25
I like looping the oil as it warms up. I planned on doing that on the pup, but was worried about puling cold oil through the boost pump. When do u start looping back to the tank, after a few minutes of engine warm up? Thanks for the ideas. This is what I was hoping for, a kind of best practices. Thanks again
Not sure what you mean by boost pump. With this 3rd solenoid design the only pump it is going through while warming up is the lift pump that is moving the cold (warming) oil. I use a diapham Walboro pump and it doesn't seem to mind pumping cold oil. I garage my car, but am in KY where it is colder than AL. I would not expect you to have a problem with oil getting to thick to pump.

I only loop back to the tank to bleed out air after a filter change. Otherwise I am looping back into the suction side of the lift pump with a simple T fitting. I do this because the tank was getting really hot when I started out (all fuel returning to tank). With my system, I only need the oil warm enough to be pumped out, I still get approx. 170F injection temps year round. I have gone so far as to partially bypass my Hotfox in the tank with an aux. heater control valve off eBay. In the summer I bypass all coolant and send none to the Hotfox. In the colder months I 'crack the valve open' to send a little coolant to the Hotfox.

The reason for focus on heat reduction in my tank? I have friends running Greasecar kits that have had serious polymerization problems. I feel that the Greasecar tank design promotes this through excessive heat in tank and the copper heat exchanger in the tank. I read a good study that looked at polymerization of VO and it found copper is one of the best catalysts for poly. VO+heat+copper+oxygen=poly. Plus, lowering the temps in the tank (and routing the tank vent outside) eliminated the fried food smell in the car.

I don't eat fried food, I definitely don't want to smell it!
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Old October 26th, 2009, 16:51   #15
joeperry25
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Sorry lift pump = boost pump, i just call it a different name. That setup sounds similar to what I was planning. I like the warming and circulating the oil. I was just worried about the cold oil actor. I will give it a try like that. I have been wanting to do that for a while anyway. I also loop back to the oil line and not to the tank to keep heat down. Had to change it to an open loop on the other truck to burp air out of teh system though. Thanks for the advice
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