2011 Volkswagen Jetta / NCS and NMS U.S.-Market Sedans - Spied

German_1er_diesel said:

Why? Because you'd have 65% instead of 70% of the car's weight on the front wheels?
The new Toyota iQ has the engine behind the front axle.

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I don't think any modern VW has as much as 70% on the front axle.

What is the weight distribution of the iQ? How does it drive in the winter? What's the maximum torque it has to transmit to the ground?

V said:

Having a transverse engine sit behind the front-axle would adversley affect traction on a FWD car.

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The only thing that would be noticeably adversely affected by such a layout in a FWD car is straightline traction while accelerating uphill on a slippery surface. Like driving an on uphill driveway on snow. And I mean the difference will be barely noticeable. In this regard, FWD will always be at a disadvantage compared to RWD regardless of where the engine sits in relation to the front axle, because weight is being transferred to the rear wheels while accelerating. EDL, which is equipped in many modern cars, will help in this regard, making it a moot point.

In every other driving situation, the more balanced weight distribution will be better for lateral traction and handling, even (especially) for a FWD car.

TDIMeister said:

The only thing that would be noticeably adversely affected by such a layout in a FWD car is straightline traction while accelerating uphill on a slippery surface. Like driving an on uphill driveway on snow. And I mean the difference will be barely noticeable. In this regard, FWD will always be at a disadvantage compared to RWD regardless of where the engine sits in relation to the front axle, because weight is being transferred to the rear wheels while accelerating. EDL, which is equipped in many modern cars, will help in this regard, making it a moot point.

In every other driving situation, the more balanced weight distribution will be better for lateral traction and handling, even (especially) for a FWD car.

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TDIMeister, I've always wanted to ask this question to someone who might know, or even tested this back to back. An example that comes to mind, would be the B5.5 (3BG) Passat VS the B6 Passat. The B5.5 as we all know, had a longitudinally mounted engine, while the B6 had a transverse layout. Would one notice these differences that you mentioned, driving these cars back to back for comparison up a steep slippery hill?

There is a part two to the question also, and that is comparing these two cars again up a steep slippery hill, taking into account that the B5.5 has a four link front suspension vs the B6's Mcpherson front setup. Would that make a difference?

It's not easy to quantify the difference in slippery traction from two generations of cars, because it's far from just a question of engine layout, which is the main point I was trying to make. There are other factors that have far more decisive -- and in some cases obscure -- effects. For example, wheelbase, mass and the position of the centre of gravity of the cars will affect weight transfer over the front drive axles during acceleration. As I already alluded to, the presence of EDL (Electronic Differential Lock) and similar features will make a big difference in straightline traction. But no, whether transverse- or longitudinal placement in and of itself has no obvious effects on straightline traction. Suspension design also doesn't affect straightline traction on slipperty surfaces too much, but obviously has a major impact on cornering handling. This is because different suspensions have different dynamic characteristics on camber- and toe changes when loaded and unloaded. This will affect the tire contact patch with the road.

If you live in a property with a steep uphill driveway and you're chronicly getting stuck when it snows, you want an AWD vehicle.

Stick vs Automatic . .

boutmuet said:

I too have been a bit afraid of stick shift cars after hearing all the horror stories of people in traffic with stick shifts and steep hills. After getting my last two cars in Automatic I am happy to say my new VW will be my first ever stick shift car. My Volvo is a great car but I am just not getting the excitement I would out of a stick shift car, I feel a bit disconnected from the driving experience of my car. That is the feeling I generally get from Automatic cars.

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I would ask: Have you driven a new 2009 automatic DSG equipped TDI

Try it, you'll like it!

TDIMeister said:

If you live in a property with a steep uphill driveway and you're chronicly getting stuck when it snows, you want an AWD vehicle.

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I agree with that. And in general, thats where I have seen VW flounder in the US market, with the lack of options. Like others have said there are no OPTIONS in the US like in Europe. My driveway is 136 feet long, curved, with something like a 9 percent grade. When you try to get up that thing in the snow you need every wheel doing as much as it can to get you to the top. I would love to have a 4motion Jetta TDI with a stiff spring option. That would replace 3 of my vehicles right there.

If VW dumbs down and "Americanizes" there cars any more, I'm gonna drop them. If I want "Americanized", I can go buy a Ford with local warranty support (someone I can argue with locally to get my car fixed ) and be giving my money to our economy.

As much as I like the TDI engine, and the VW engines in general, I have done a good deal of work to it to keep it running at its peak. My 97' F-150 i can keep running at peak by just changing the oil. If your not an enthusiast, and don't like working on your own cars a lot, you need a car company to support your vehicle. If VW wants to sell more cars, they will have to improve their customer relations first.

volkswagendude said:

TDIMeister, I've always wanted to ask this question to someone who might know, or even tested this back to back. An example that comes to mind, would be the B5.5 (3BG) Passat VS the B6 Passat. The B5.5 as we all know, had a longitudinally mounted engine, while the B6 had a transverse layout. Would one notice these differences that you mentioned, driving these cars back to back for comparison up a steep slippery hill?
There is a part two to the question also, and that is comparing these two cars again up a steep slippery hill, taking into account that the B5.5 has a four link front suspension vs the B6's Mcpherson front setup. Would that make a difference?

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Maybe I can answer.

Our B5.5 TDI seems to have much better traction in the snow than our B6 wagon. Even on exactly the same tires. I am at a loss to explain why. Weight distribution? Suspension design? Or simply the heavier diesel engine over the front axles? Whatever, I have always preferred driving the TDI in bad winter weather. It is also more stable at speed in the snow.

PlaneCrazy said:

Maybe I can answer.
Our B5.5 TDI seems to have much better traction in the snow than our B6 wagon. Even on exactly the same tires. I am at a loss to explain why. Weight distribution? Suspension design? Or simply the heavier diesel engine over the front axles? Whatever, I have always preferred driving the TDI in bad winter weather. It is also more stable at speed in the snow.

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Thanks for the direct comparison!!

Next Generation Jetta Spy Shots

Left Lane News has some photos of a VW that they say will be the next Jetta.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/volkswagen-jetta-2011.html

However there have been "sources" saying VW will use the Jetta name on a bigger sedan. The full rundown of news:

http://killwithfire.blogspot.com/2009/08/figuring-out-vws-us-strategy.html

OMG! Do I spy DRUM brakes in the rear of the camouflaged car???

TDIMeister said:

OMG! Do I spy DRUM brakes in the rear of the camouflaged car???

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You're mistaken, they're drum brake look-alike hubcap plates, 'cause all the cool kids have drum brakes now.

chewy said:

Inside Line has some photos of a VW that they say will be the next Jetta.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/volkswagen-jetta-2011.html

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Looks like an old Mitsubishi Galant.

Hopefully the red shorts and matching socks are optional.

Yeah, all of the bras make it look like a Galant.

In the backend shot, you can clearly see two very different exhausts on the beta mules.

Looks like one is a gasser and one a TDI.

velociT said:

In the backend shot, you can clearly see two very different exhausts on the beta mules.

Looks like one is a gasser and one a TDI.

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Confirmed by the tachometer.

http://blogs.edmunds.com/roadtests/...etta-tdi-2011-volkswagen-jetta-spy-shots.html

2011 Jetta

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/08/31/spy-shots-2011-vw-jetta-sedan/


After spending time with the Jetta sedan last year, we came away mostly impressed by its performance and looks. V-Dub's bread-and-butter model is handsome enough to keep buyers interested, but every design gets stale and after wearing the same duds since 2004, VW is working on all-new sheetmetal for the 2011 model year.

KPG caught the new Jetta Sedan undergoing hot-weather testing in Arizona, and while most of the shots show little more than swaths of black camo, the heat and wind worked away at the adhesive to reveal crisper lines, a swoopier roof, a more angled rear side window and some snazzy looking taillights.

VW is calling the revised Jetta its "New Compact Sedan" and the Jetta name is in no danger of being changed. Expect the 2011 Jetta to take aim at the Civic and Corolla with a significant drop in its base price when it goes on sale late next year.

(Pictures in link)

"Significant drop in base price" also often means "signficantly de-contented". I wonder what we'll be losing to drive a Jetrolla...

I'm reminded here of a Jetta City, where the dashboard is filled with switch blanks where the heated seat, ESP and other buttons used to be, when it was just a Jetta. Even the Mk V Jetta Trendline is pretty bare bones, no heated seats and no center armrest. It scares me to think of a Jetta with even less. Roll-up windows anyone?

PlaneCrazy said:

"Significant drop in base price" also often means "signficantly de-contented". I wonder what we'll be losing to drive a Jetrolla...

I'm reminded here of a Jetta City, where the dashboard is filled with switch blanks where the heated seat, ESP and other buttons used to be, when it was just a Jetta. Even the Mk V Jetta Trendline is pretty bare bones, no heated seats and no center armrest. It scares me to think of a Jetta with even less. Roll-up windows anyone?

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There is a large base of car shoppers/owners who would like to have the manual option. I happen to be one of them.

I've gotten lazy in my old age, I like my electric windows. I generally don't like to use AC except on the highway at speed, so in the city I like to be able to quickly roll down all my windows, and then when I hit the highway, roll 'em all up again.

I don't recall when I last had a car with roll-up windows. I have only had power windows fail twice in 25 years. Once was on a GM. Oddly, the other time was on a VW

But the latter was likely the result of a shoddy accident repair as it was a door replaced after an accident. The former was the result of... well, just being a GM (it was a 1985 Pontiac 6000 STE bought new; it was my last GM and likely will remain my last GM ever based on the experience I had with it).

PlaneCrazy said:

"Significant drop in base price" also often means "signficantly de-contented". I wonder what we'll be losing to drive a Jetrolla...
. . .
Even the Mk V Jetta Trendline is pretty bare bones, no heated seats and no center armrest. It scares me to think of a Jetta with even less. Roll-up windows anyone?

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Strikes me that VW does not sell many cars here in the USA and the main reason for that is the price of the cars. Plain and simple, set a Jetta, Passat, Touareg next to a SIMILAR SIZED car and the VW will almost always be more expensive. Granted, it will also be more refined. It will probably have more options as standard (but not always). Its ergonomic design will be better. But we live in a land where KIA is dumping crap on the marketplace and consumers are standing in line to snap them up because they are cheap. VW used to be cheap (think the original Beetle) but now has quite the opposite reputation. Add to that the cost of VW parts, which often are excessive compared to some other brands, and if not simply more expensive then often harder to find replacements.

Now there are those of us who appreciate the engineering and the refinement of the VW and look at it as an economical platform alternative to more expensive cars. However, much of the car buying public is far less sophisticated and far more price conscious. So it strikes me that VW is simply catering to the masses.

I also strongly suspect that they will have multiple variants of the Jetta, from bare bones to compete with the Asians to the traditionally well refined vehicles we all appreciate. Seems like good business to me. But that said, I'm glad I'm getting a 2010 Jetta TDI instead of the less refined 2011.

Ew drums brakes. Do not want!

This is so typical of VW: "The Americans don't like our cars. There is something wrong with Americans."

Yeah, they don't like to buy cars from idiots.

Well, I've always seen VWs as cheap Audis. Same engineering, nearly as many features, often the same engines and drive trains (think Audi A3 vs A5 GTI/Rabbit/Jetta), usually for far, far less

God save us from the Kias and Hyundais. They rust like crazy in Quebec.

Well in Canada we already have the Corolla/Civic competitor, it's the Golf and Jetta City. In fact they're nearly Yaris and Fit priced. Not as fuel efficient though.

Boy, VWoA just can't win with you guys, can it?

Many people chastise VW for not bringing more Euro models, not dumbed down for US consumption, and then another group bashes VWoA for pushing same-looking cars down US buyers throats and sticking it to customers saying, "Take it or leave it". Tell you something: by applying the logic being read here, VWs look much the same in Europe, too.

mavapa said:

This is so typical of VW: "The Americans don't like our cars. There is something wrong with Americans."

Yeah, they don't like to buy cars from idiots.

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Actually they're right in their thinking. The few of us who appreciate what a German car is, do not like what is going on with the redesigns to make them American.

Americans like/expect a car that does a hard nose dive when you slam its brakes. If VW reduces the rear bias in braking, I'll never own another one.

That is the kind of dumbing down I anticipate with the NA-only sold vehicles, while the world class models (classics/original name plates) will still be German vehicles from a driving stand point with Americanized interiors.

Again, I want hand cranks. Cruise control. A 6-speed manual. Cloth interior. And a CD player with a USB port. That's about it. I don't need automatic anything, and the less options the longer it'll last/the less likely things are to break. 02 Manual window car: never needed the regulator looked at or oiled. 2002 power window: failed under 40k miles/2 years.

Even if the 5th gen has motors that last 10 years, that's still less than handcranks would hold up. Hell How many 70-something VWs are still on factor regulators? How many 80s VWs are on 2nd or 3rd power window motor? It's simple: power items wear out faster and cost more to replace.

Some of us want no frills. But we're never going to be profitable enough for a company. This is why we tend to make our own out of the thrown-away cars from others

I simply don't buy the argument that VW makes or that others here make for them. Mercedes and BMW sell German cars here without a great deal of trouble. I can usually tell a 3-series BMW from a bigger one without looking at the nameplate. They have "German engineering" (whatever that's supposed to mean). And they're sporting models. But VW can't sell their cars because Americans aren't discerning enough? Nope. Don't buy it. VW can't sell cars here because they have a reputation for poor reliability and their model lineup is not rational. Criticize the Japanese makes all you want, but they make damned fine cars. VW is really going to shoot itself in the foot in this market if it makes dumbed down cars that don't compare well to Japanese cars because they think Americans are stupid.

Americans are stupid.

We're the only country that needs automatic windows, transmissions, door locks and seats as 'standard' and then expect them to work flawlessly for 250,000 miles without a hiccup.

I bought my house built in 2009 and fully expect it to never need a thing done to it before 2110. The logic is eerily similar and just as flawed. Until Americans accept that failure happens, and that cutting edge means blood loss, the Germans will always have trouble selling cars.

Last I checked MB + BMW != Toyota's sales excluding Scion. (Infact, Apple Inc has a larger personal computer market share than BMW has in the auto market share, imagine that)

kcfoxie said:

2002 power window: failed under 40k miles/2 years.

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Really? My '02 has 191,000 and change on it now, the driver's window gets a minimum two full down/up cycles 5 days a week (sometimes more), and not only does it work perfectly, it's never even had the "metal clips" recall done on it. The only window-related part I've ever changed (and I mean this loosely) is the armrest piece the switch panel mounts into, and that was because the soft-touch plastic got all peeled and nasty.

If they got mine so right, what'd they screw up on yours?

VW wants to be better? How about a bit more consistency in the little stuff like this?

Based on many forum reading, first thing is first, VW on this continent, needs to do something about their dealership network, particularly in the USA, starting right down with their interview process, of who gets hired and who doesn't. They also need to work closer with their head offices, to the service managers, all the way to down to the actual mechanics changing the oil(502 oil in a TDI anyone? ), to communicate, and educate, on various issues, from Technical Service Bulletins, to product lineup specific needs in the shop(think Phaeton here, and one of the reasons IT failed), to actual customer service in the sales or waiting area. Someone who just shelled out $100000 on a Phaeton, I can guarantee you, does not accept the kind of service, the guy in his stripped out $15000 Jetta will be getting. So you are going to have to choose which Philosophy you are going to apply. If you want both to work, you need only look to see how Lexus/Toyota managed to do it.

Coming back to the actual cars themeselves, I've always respected and liked the VW lineup and their engineering. I too see them as "cheaper Audi's". My only(and others here) gripe with their model selection, has always been, and I'll use my own car as an example(a 2005 Passat TDI), the LACK OF any kind of "a la carte" flexibilty when ordering new, and whwn attempting to tick of the options list, or DELETE any for that matter. My car was never offered with a stick here N.A(yes we already discussed the reason for that before in this thread), never offered with the OPTION of a heated front windshield(I bet many did not even know that even existed ), no HID headlights, etc....So in my particular models case, yes, it was a stripped out version of a B5.5 compared to Europe. Now here is some irony on how the options list works, with the lack of "a la carte" with some irony. You want say NO leather, NO sunroof, No Auto, but you want a NAV. No sir, it doesn't work that way. In order to have the NAV, YOU MUST have the leather, you must have what is essentially, a fully loaded car *which in reality, IS STILL really a stripped out version compared to the Euro model! Now I'm getting mixxed up here

Does BMW do that? Mercedes? I almost know for a fact that the latter doesn't. I invite anyone to go visit their website. It's "a la carte" heaven With BMW, I think the main complaint in the past, used to be no diesel engines, why should Europe have them and not us. Well they finally brought them in...

Now concerning the new redesigned Jetta, stripping them out is fine. Nothing new there, we are all used to that by now. We are also all used to not having certain goodies like certain engines, adpative cruise, etc(take your pick)like the Europeans have. But what I'm really afraid of is, that little bit of the ol' "german engineering" bit(road feel, handling, sportiness, sound of doors closing, character, call it what you want) that we have grown to take for granted on these cars, will vanish, and the future model lineup, wll not be worthy enough, to be called "a cheap Audi's" anymore, which I always thought, was a compliment to the VW lineup.

So I'm not even sure anymore, what it is that VW wishes to accomplish here. Allow a more black and white approach to who goes to the Audi dealer, and who goes to the VW one? Will the VW's still have that strong connection DNA gene wise with Audi regardless? Or will they become something entirely different and cheapened, commercialized, mass produced for the american masses who drive them Corollas and Civics, and have absolutely no appreciation for drive, style, feel, character, just bland(albeit in style so they think ) transport from point A to point B philosophy???

I'll make my closing statement clear on those sentiments. I'm very glad I own a B5.5 Passat, and even more glad that I will own what looks like to be one of the last years of the Touareg. I'm going to pick one up, before as rumour has it, the next generation will be a dumbed out version, less refined. Any Phaeton that was in the previous Touareg will be long gone. Nobody seemed to have an appreciation of what the past(present one) was all about.

With my take on all this, I'm not even sure if I should wear or take off my flame suit. It seems to be far more complicated than it looks, but it really shouldn't be?