Cold starting practices, NO start @ 10 degrees Fahrenheit

dbh · Dec 31, 2007

It gets cold in winter where I live and my '06 Jetta TDI came with an oil pan heater. I try to remember to plug that in when it gets close to -20C (and 120VAC power is available).

If I don't use the heater, once the temp drops below about -20 I start getting the following cold start routine:
Key - ON, wait for GP light to go out, start cranking and get a few pops but won't start. What I do then is try the same again but keep cranking while it pops until it starts running on its own, usually after about 5 seconds of cranking. Then I let go of the key. It might still miss a bit and the exhaust will stink, but after a couple minutes idling I just drive away and take it easy while it warms up on the road.
Once I tried starting it without being plugged in at close to -40 and it would barely crank over.

On the topic of winter fuel, I keep a fuel log and it's obvious by the sudden increase in fuel consumption when winter fuel has filled the pumps.
I never use any diesel additive.
My $0.02
--
dbh

1998993C2S · Dec 31, 2007

Winter diesel fuel sure does hit the Miles Per Gallon figures, as my recent road trip would at least support this trend.
Last week I started a 1500mi., road trip from Atlanta, GA to Vail, CO and here are those MPG figures. Presumably the Atlanta area fill up wasn't winter fuel. (ATL) 1st tank 44.6 MPG, 2nd tank, 39.5 MPG, 3rd tank, 37.6 MPG. A tank = 13.5 gallons or so...

What's the conversion -20C to Fahrenheit, about -4F…?? Close enough eh.
-18C = 0F, something like that…

BudLight · Jan 2, 2008

Final chapter on my cold starting problem. DrewD in Monument, CO helped me by installing a Frost Heater http://www.frostheater.com/ He had a new one in the box. I used it only once so far, yesterday AM for a 4 hour heat up. It was 9 degrees F and it works as advertized. Immediate start up, operation temp, warm heat. After driving a short ways, the temp drops to 160 degrees from 190, then warms back up to 190 pretty fast. I am heading back up to the mountains today for a few days where the car will be left outside. If it doesn't meet my expectations I will post a note, otherwise assume that it works like a champ.
Changed the fuel filter as well at 18,250 miles. Pretty black...
-Bud

cdnjeepin · Jan 2, 2008

our 02 TDI has never started in the cold very good from Day 1.. If it is below -10C...i might as well just go do snow angels..cause its not gonna start...this car has been terrible in the winter...had the GP changed a few times..never made a difference..serviced at the dealer..they have no idea's..So I ordered the frostheater..and will see how that works..

DrewD · Jan 2, 2008

I'm trying to understand why folks in Colorado are having problems starting their A5s.

It was 1 deg F outside this morning and I didn't plug my heater in because my wife's CRD has two bad glowplugs and she needed the outlet to warm her engine up so we can drop it off at the dealership....anyway, my car fired up instantly.

Is there bad fuel in the Denver and ski areas?

daleho1 · Jan 2, 2008

DrewD said:
I'm trying to understand why folks in Colorado are having problems starting their A5s.

It was 1 deg F outside this morning and I didn't plug my heater in because my wife's CRD has two bad glowplugs and she needed the outlet to warm her engine up so we can drop it off at the dealership....anyway, my car fired up instantly.

Is there bad fuel in the Denver and ski areas?

how long does your glow plug light stay on before it goes out?
is it the origanal battery?

your saying at that temp you don't have to crank on it any more than at say 50*F?

ATLSilverTDI · Jan 2, 2008

Guys help solve a mystery...
If the Glow Plug light goes out... are the glow plugs potentially still on? I hear the relay click, but in talking to other diesel users, it has been suggested that the GPs can stay on for up to 60 seconds?

1998993C2S · Jan 2, 2008

At about 15F the glow plugs will stay on noticeably longer than say, at 40F/50F. Our car has the OEM battery which would be just over a year in service. This car's battery will crank until the cows come home, its that the engine won't fire up when the temp's close in on the 10F to 20F range.

I spoke with the Denver VW dealer/tech today and there were no code's thrown and the TDI started in their parking lot, though slowly as the ambient temps were a little warmer at 25F. Go figure. The tech indicated there wern't many TSB regarding cold temps. other than "winterized diesel fuel being required". A glimpse of the painfully obvious-! We'll see what becomes of this service event. (I'll call VW Roadside Assistance each and every day until this TDI starts on its own at 15F in my driveway.) The week is young and VWoA can figure this out...

It's been getting down to negative (-10F) temps overnight and then the day heats up to 10F to 20F in the early morning.(9am) However, this TDI isn't starting when its 20F or less.

shaolin · Jan 2, 2008

Well I am in Durango, Colorado right now and I have my car sitting outside last couple nights and temp drop to less than 9F overnite. It took me several cranks before the engine start firing on its own.

nutdriver · Jan 2, 2008

dbh said:
It gets cold in winter where I live and my '06 Jetta TDI came with an oil pan heater. I try to remember to plug that in when it gets close to -20C (and 120VAC power is available).

If I don't use the heater, once the temp drops below about -20 I start getting the following cold start routine:
Key - ON, wait for GP light to go out, start cranking and get a few pops but won't start. What I do then is try the same again but keep cranking while it pops until it starts running on its own, usually after about 5 seconds of cranking. Then I let go of the key. It might still miss a bit and the exhaust will stink, but after a couple minutes idling I just drive away and take it easy while it warms up on the road.
Once I tried starting it without being plugged in at close to -40 and it would barely crank over.

On the topic of winter fuel, I keep a fuel log and it's obvious by the sudden increase in fuel consumption when winter fuel has filled the pumps.
I never use any diesel additive.
My $0.02
--
dbh

I was in Kansas City last night. It was +10 F degrees overnight. My 2006.5 PD started with little fuss. I used this procedure above although I think it would have started without this.

My impression is also that the glow plugs do stay on long after the glow light goes out. I have always given a much longer glow time when the temps really drop than what might be suggested by watching the glow plug light.

One variable in this discussion is that the problems were apparently worse at higher elevation. Denver is roughly 5280 feet elevation but I presume that the ski areas are at a higher elevation. Maybe that is one of the clues.

1998993C2S · Jan 2, 2008

Nutdriver: I've asked the tech (an able guy) at the Denver VW dealership to investigate the effect of elevation with regards to the hard, cold (10F) temperature starting; when speaking with the VWoA tech line. Keep in mind that our driveway in Vail is 8200' elevation and the air is getting thinner by the foot. Maybe a clue?

40X40 · Jan 2, 2008

9 or 10 F last night in Kansas City and the wife reported her 06 DSG took two tries to get started this morning.
Mine had to crank a while too but started on the first try. I might have cranked it 2 or 3 seconds. In warm weather it starts in less than a second.

Good quality D2 without any additives right now. (I forgot to put any in the last few tanks...)

I think I'll see if Terry at Frostheater is still running that special of free shipping if you buy two of his heaters.

Bill

dbh · Jan 2, 2008

Re. altitude vs starting problems:
I would think that cold dense air would somewhat compensate for the higher elevation as far as the intake charge is concerned. I'm at about 2500ft. All my lower altitude experience coincides with warm temperatures. A bigger variable IMHO is the fuel, especially when it comes to cold start performance.
As they say, YMMV.
--
dbh

nutdriver · Jan 3, 2008

40X40 said:
9 or 10 F last night in Kansas City and the wife reported her 06 DSG took two tries to get started this morning.
Mine had to crank a while too but started on the first try. I might have cranked it 2 or 3 seconds. In warm weather it starts in less than a second.

Good quality D2 without any additives right now. (I forgot to put any in the last few tanks...)

I think I'll see if Terry at Frostheater is still running that special of free shipping if you buy two of his heaters.

Bill

To clarify from my recent post, my car also probably took the 2-3 seconds under these same conditions in Kansas City. I accept that as normal for a diesel starting at 10 degree F. That would not concern me as long as it can start. It is the thought that it will not start under those conditions that give me some concerns.

1998993C2S · Jan 3, 2008

Agreed. Once, twice, three times a charm "starting" is normal for a modern diesel engine in cold weather. Not starting at 15F, which is our condition, is unacceptable for the same modern diesel engine.

Madam X sees a Frostheater in my future, that's a given. Although this doesn't address the issue when A/C isn't possible.

GoFaster · Jan 3, 2008

temperature this morning on the car's temp display: -19 C

fuel in tank: commercial 20% canola-based biodiesel!

Switch key on, wait for first the glow plug indication then the "car" symbol next door to go out, hit the starter position, and the engine was running within probably half a revolution of cranking, and no sputtering and no big cloud of smoke, either!

If yours is not like this, there is likely a problem with either the car (coolant temp sensor?) or the fuel being used.

Kosh · Jan 4, 2008

In the colder temps I noticed my LCD displays on the radio and MFI are a little slow to update but other than that no ill effects due to cold -10 F last night

Carla · Jan 4, 2008

It was zero last night when I left work at midnight ..Car started fine..
This the first time I have used an anti gel additive thought.

Bob_Fout · Jan 4, 2008

It probably had cetane boosters too in it. Which additive did you use?

Carla · Jan 4, 2008

I'm not sure ..It's in my garage at home but the vw dealer gave me the bottle when I have surging issues which was just a needed fuel filter change. I'll take a look tomorrow and let you know. The engine is much quiter when cold and seems smoother too. I'm going to continue using it.
The bottle was free too....

Bob_Fout · Jan 4, 2008

If the dealer gave it to you, chances are it was stanadyne.

LF06VWJTDI · Jan 4, 2008

Temps have been ranging anywhere from -8 to 15 the past 4-5 days. I never had a problem starting my 80K miles old TDI.
I just put a new battery last week but only because I'm obsessed with maintenance, and not that I really needed it.
They put some much crap to winterize these fuels up here...

TDKozan · Jan 5, 2008

How's your battery? Last week was all sub-zero F mornings here in Greeley, north and east of all the ski towns and I've noticed a bit of sluggishness on the starter. No failures to catch though. I use John Deere Winter Formula with an extra shot of Stanadyne Lubricity in each tank but I ran PS my first winter, down to -24F without any problem.

Chances are your battery or the glow plugs are the problem but I'm not an expert mechanic, just an overly experienced winter driver.

Good luck,

TK

dhdenney · Jan 6, 2008

Sounds to me like a fueling problem. My dad has two 5.9 Cummins Dodges and I have always told him to use additives but he thinks they are a waste of money. Anyway... temps here in KY have been relatively mild overall but had a few cold spots here and there since Oct. He has had issues of the fuel filter freezing up and/or fuel gelling. The other day he said he was just driving and it quit. He heated the fuel filter and eventually got it started again. Last winter, he was travelling and made about three attempts at thawing out the fuel filter before getting the truck going again. He keeps the filter longer than normal and I think he's getting water too. My TDI? Never a problem. Had the car two years without the Frostheater and never ever a long cranking/no start condition. I keep the filter changed and use an additive every fillup. I told him to change the filter more often, use an additive, and plug the block heater up on those cold nights.

1998993C2S · Jan 6, 2008

Hello everyone ~ In speaking with the Denver VW dealership's Technician, he's been instructed by the VWoA Technical Line to poke around these items. The finding's so far are; EGR-OK, Manifold-OK, Fuel-OK, Fuel filter-OK (new OEM filter 6k miles ago and presently clean) Glow plugs-Ok, Air Filter-Ok (new 6k miles ago w/ OEM winter version). Go figure right!

There's' something outta whack with our TDI, sure. And the cold temps in the range of 10F bring out the worst. My wife and I are no stranger's to diesel vehicles having owned and enjoyed them for decades; both in Germany and N. America. Cold weather starts,,, It ain't rocket science…. quality winter fuel, compression, vroom….

I'll be speaking with the dealership Tech on Monday PM, and will understand what the VW Tech Line tack is…. Will VWoA install a www.tdiheater.com ? (at their expense) An H2O heater doesn't remeady the cold starting issue altogether, only asists in avoiding a no-start episode.

Edit: Regarding winter diesel fuel in the front range.
I spoke with an area logistics company, Colorado Mountain Express, regarding their fuel purchases when in Denver and Vail. It seems CME operates a 100+ vehicle fleet of V10 diesel Ford van's and purchases diesel fuel similarly as we do in both Denver and Vail; the same diesel retailer in each case. To date this season, CME, has had no diesel fuel issues, and their fleet is parked outside 24/7/365 days a year. I dunno,, our TDI's suspected fuel is "getting better all the time" … That's a '60's Beatle tune, you're dam right! But hey, "If it weren’t for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all" ~ Cream.

Mase · Jan 7, 2008

MS... let me know if your Tech wants another vehicle to look at. I finally got my car started last week... but only after it warmed up to 32 degrees. It wouldn't start at 0, 10, 15 (with a light under the engine), or 15 with a space heater. Once the tempature in Summit County warmed to 32... it started right up. Interesting note... when it did finally start... it "buck'd" like it was in gear. I read about that in another post but never experienced it. That part hasn't happened since.

The car is in the Denver area now and has no problems.

1998993C2S · Jan 8, 2008

Mase, et al, The core, cold starting, issue just could be the DSG gearbox. At low temperatures, (20F and below range) disengagement from the engine via the DSG clutches becomes an issue, with the DSG gearbox providing just enough drag on the engines start sequence, etc.

The VWoA Tech Line is aware (they brought it up) of the DSG fluid, low temperature viscosity issue…. More later.

Mase: I let the Denver area VW tech be known of your cold start situation being similar… More later.

dhdenney · Jan 8, 2008

1998993C2S said:
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Mase et al, The core cold starting issue just could be the DSG gearbox. At low temperatures, (-20F range) complete disengagement of the DSG clutches becomes an issue providing drag on the engine, started, etc. [/font][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']VWoA Tech Line is aware of the DSG low temperature viscosity issue…. More later. [/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Mase: I let the Denver area VW tech be known of your cold start situation being similar… More later.[/font]

Yikes! Fix that font!

Carla · Jan 8, 2008

Just to answer Bob F. ..Crc fuel therapy additive was what VW gave me.. No cold starting problems at all. I will hit 80k by Friday ...very happy with this car so far.

10then34 · Jan 8, 2008

1998993C2S said:
Mase, et al, The core, cold starting, issue just could be the DSG gearbox. At low temperatures, (20F and below range) in-complete disengagement of the DSG clutches becomes an issue, with the DSG gearbox providing drag on the engine, starter, etc.

I noticed that once. The car was outside at -10F for about 10 hours. After starting up, it wouldn't go into gear and then refused to shift into second. After a couple of 100 yards in 1st, it jerked into 2nd and hasn't bothered me ever since..

Cold starting practices, NO start @ 10 degrees Fahrenheit

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