VW Rejecting Non-Clean Titles?

VeeDubTDI

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Let's stop bickering about morality and focus our discussion on the unofficial change from and to or in Volkswagen's buyback process. I think ujames and DanB36 have honed in on what's happening here and I think it's worth bringing to the forefront of discussion.

My biggest concern is that this settlement, which many took to be defined and mostly final, has been amorphous and subject to ongoing changes. It no longer seems to matter what was written on paper and agreed on by all parties.

If they're closing loopholes, fine. However, that process needs to be more transparent, agreed on by class council and the defendants and clearly communicated publicly.
 

kjclow

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I think this thread is going a little overboard. Can we refrain from the conversations of who is the most morally correct and wait to see if the OP gets his issues resolved?
 

kjclow

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My biggest concern is that this settlement, which many took to be defined and mostly final, has been amorphous and subject to ongoing changes. It no longer seems to matter what was written on paper and agreed on by all parties.

If they're closing loopholes, fine. However, that process needs to be more transparent, agreed on by class council and the defendants and clearly communicated publicly.
Fully agree. There seems to be too much power given (or taken) by some of the process handlers and too little with others. The court order needed stronger wording towards acceptable condition and how to handle red titled vehicles.

Description: When I was growing up in Iowa, a reconditioned totaled car had a declared "red title". This included everything from hail damage, flood damage, to wrecks. Some insurance companies would not insure any vehicle with a red title.
 

surfstar

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^part of the issue is how different states handle Salvaged/Rebuilt/etc titles, too.

It still was spelled out clearly in the terms, though, and I cannot see how the OP won't get buybacks approved, although it might take a frustrating amount of back and forth.
 

gtmule

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So I'm the same boat as some above. VW definately started slow rolling claims starting in mid-April, and then began rejecting documents shortly after. So far all my salvage titles have either been accepted or at least haven't been rejected from every state but PA and MI. Both of those states put something to the effect of "This vehicle may not be registered using this as the title document". I emailed the class council and got the same reply as posted above. Have sent a follow up email pushing back, as I don't want to appeal with the claims board, since they haven't actually rejected my claim or declared the car ineligible, only rejected documents....
 

ujames

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So I'm the same boat as some above. VW definately started slow rolling claims starting in mid-April, and then began rejecting documents shortly after. So far all my salvage titles have either been accepted or at least haven't been rejected from every state but PA and MI. Both of those states put something to the effect of "This vehicle may not be registered using this as the title document". I emailed the class council and got the same reply as posted above. Have sent a follow up email pushing back, as I don't want to appeal with the claims board, since they haven't actually rejected my claim or declared the car ineligible, only rejected documents....

What will you do next? Just wait it out?
 

TDIforDays

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So I'm the same boat as some above. VW definately started slow rolling claims starting in mid-April, and then began rejecting documents shortly after. So far all my salvage titles have either been accepted or at least haven't been rejected from every state but PA and MI. Both of those states put something to the effect of "This vehicle may not be registered using this as the title document". I emailed the class council and got the same reply as posted above. Have sent a follow up email pushing back, as I don't want to appeal with the claims board, since they haven't actually rejected my claim or declared the car ineligible, only rejected documents....
You don't get titles in your own name when you do the buyback? You just use original title with reassignment of ownership?
 

duratitus

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Thanks to you who have responded with similar experiences​.

It definitely looks like VW is trying to either back out of keeping the Court order, or at least delay the process for salvage/rebuilt title vehicles, to discourage people who may be flipping junkers.

I personally think it's a calculated move from VW, to tie the hands of flippers until the deadline in 2018, at which point they'll end up having to purchase all eligible vehicles.
 

chief poncho

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I haven't been in here since my car was turned-in, but this thread intrigues me.

Unfortunately, I don't think this issue is going to be resolved quickly. It's interesting that it took VW this long to start flagging branded titles. The issue could have been easily resolved upfront with less ambiguous language. Also, VW should not be changing the rules midstream. Perhaps they are simply wanting a more stringent process for reviewing branded titles.

Here is my take on what is most likely going on. Looking at the language in the settlement, the following owners are excluded:

(c) Owners whose Volkswagen or Audi 2.0-liter TDI vehicle (i) could not be driven under the power of its own 2.0-liter TDI engine on June 28, 2016, or (ii) had a Branded Title of Assembled, Dismantled, Flood, Junk, Rebuilt, Reconstructed, or Salvage on September 18, 2015, and was acquired from a junkyard or salvage yard after September 18, 2015;
Here is the other definition under Operable that applies:
“Operable” means a vehicle that can be driven under its own 2.0-liter TDI engine power. A vehicle is not Operable if it had a Branded Title of Assembled, Dismantled, Flood, Junk, Rebuilt, Reconstructed, or Salvaged on September 18, 2015, and was acquired by any person or entity from a junkyard or salvage yard after September 18, 2015.
Take the first part. Excluded if the title was branded on 9/18/15, meaning the car was rendered totaled prior to the issue being public. You would think if they had written the language to exclude all of these cars, including cars with rebuilt titles, they would have written this as:

"(ii) had a Branded Title of Assembled, Dismantled, Flood, Junk, Rebuilt, Reconstructed, or Salvage on September 18, 2015, OR (iii) was acquired from a junkyard or salvage yard after September 18, 2015;"

But they didn't because I believe the FTC and EPA wanted any cars with rebuilt titles off the road. But if that was case why not just allow rebuilt titles to be eligible but exclude other total loss vehicles?

What about cars totaled after 9/18/15 after the scandal became public? I think the intent of the settlement, knowing that insurance companies would base payments on current blue book values, was to make owners whose cars were a complete loss due to accident, theft, etc whole by allowing them to recover the restitution payment for this event. This at least allowed folks whose cars were totaled after the settlement approval in June 2016, to go two routes, fix the car and make it operable, thus getting the full buyback amount or work with VW and the insurance company and get the insurance reimbursement plus the full restitution amount. Regardless all of these scenarios exclude the AND part of the language regarding buying from a junkyard.

Now the AND part is interesting as opposed to OR. By adding this line to the settlement language, the courts essentially opened a gaping loophole that allowed any car totaled after 9/18/15 to be purchased at salvage yards, auctions, junkyards etc, to be turned in for full buyback regardless of title branding, assuming it moved under its own 2.0L power. It also opened the loophole for cars totaled and purchased from junkyards prior to 9/18/15 to be eligible for the buyback. IMO, the intent of this language was to prevent people from buying cars sitting in junkyards prior to 9/18/15 from being bought up and repaired for the purpose of exploiting the buyback after the scandal was public. But since the courts wanted people who were exposed to the scandal post 9/18/15 to be able to be made whole if their car was totaled, this exclusion didn't apply.

Realistically VW is now trying to perform deeper dives on branded titled cars to ensure they meet the criteria. I believe anyone with a car that was not both totaled prior to 9/18/15 and purchased from a salvage yard after 9/18/15 and is operable will get the full buyback value. By forcing you through the claims board they will essentially ensure you meet the criteria. My guess is they were not doing a deep dive on branded title cars prior to this due to manpower and being overwhelmed. Besides in the initial rush there probably weren't that many branded titled cars being pushed through. Now that things are slowing down, they can spend more time reviewing each case. For anyone trying to do a buyback on a branded title car you are most likely going to need the vehicle's complete history proving it meets the criteria. If you can't show the date the title was branded and its procurement history after 9/18/15, you may be rejected. I recommend anyone in this situation to get as much documentation on the history of the car as possible to present to the claims board. Here is what you will need:

1. If the car title was branded before 9/18/15, provide proof of ownership transfer since the branding. In other words, even if it was purchased from a salvage dealer, show that transaction occurred before 9/18/15.

2. If the car was branded before 9/18/15 and purchased from a salvage dealer after 9/18/15 (I would imagine VW is going to get more liberal about what exactly is a salvage dealer, including auction houses and insurance companies), even if the car is now repaired you most likely will be excluded. Good luck selling your branded title TDI on the open market.

3. If the car title was branded after 9/18/15, provide evidence of the date the title was branded. In this case VW will most likely do 1 of 2 things. Either (a) they will require the car to have a rebuilt title or some other evidence of road worthiness such as current registration (see all the posts about wrecked cars), or (b) will offer to pay the restitution amount only and not execute a full buyback.

Item (b) is defined in the settlement this way, but again leaves a loophole with the wording about transferring title to the insurance company. The settlement does not explicitly address the situation of agreeing to a lower insurance payment and keeping title of the vehicle for yourself. I do not know if by issuing a salvage title if that consitutes "transfer of title to the insurance company." Legally it may.

Any owner whose Eligible Vehicle was totaled and who consequently transferred title of his, her, or its vehicle to an insurance company on or after the Opt-Out Deadline, but before the end of the Claim Period, will be entitled to Owner Restitution but not a Buyback payment.
Bottom line, I think VW didn't give a lot of consideration to branded title cars and initially erred on the side of leniency with accepting these for buyback. Legally the loophole is wide open for cars that were totaled prior to 9/18/2015 as long as they were acquired from the "salvage/insurance/auction/wherever" prior to 9/18/2015. It's also wide open for cars branded after 9/18/2015 purchased from anywhere. Where some of you may find yourself screwed is if you purchased a branded vehicle from a salvage dealer after 9/18/15 and the prior owner has already received restitution for that vehicle, under item (b) above. Legally, I'm not sure VW has to pay twice for the same vehicle, even though you may have now made it operable. Good luck figuring that one out. Most likely, that is why the claims board is now getting spooled up.
 
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DanB36

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Now the AND part is interesting as opposed to OR. By adding this line to the settlement language, the courts essentially opened a gaping loophole that allowed any car totaled after 9/18/15 to be purchased at salvage yards,
The courts had nothing to do with it; the agreements were negotiated among the parties.
 

chief poncho

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Technically, you're correct, but the court did review and approve the language, but did not actually add the line. ;)

What are your thoughts on the potential double payment for branded title vehicles? In other words owner 1 totals car after opt-out date, sells back to insurance company, collects insurance check and restitution check from VW. Then owner 2 buys vehicle from insurance auction, does minor repair and submits claim to VW for full buyback. Does owner 2 get the buyback, or did VW meet the terms of the settlement by paying owner 1 their restitution? I think this is an area where flippers late to the game might get burned.
 

TDIforDays

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Dealer's never get title in their (our) name.
Absolutely not true.. it depends on your state. My buddy that I buy through is a NJ dealer and he flips the title at DMV in minutes and costs same $10 as a dealer reassignment. I flipped all buyback titles into company name to avoid having to explain reassignments and potential missing info as dealers often don't fill out back of titles 100%
 

jibberjive

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Of the salvage people that have officially been rejected, were any of the rejected cars rebuilt/salvage titled cars that had been fully repaired/inspected and were road-going cars? Or were most of these rejected cars straight 'salvage' certificate cars that have not been rebuilt/inspected/etc. yet?
 

jibberjive

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Also, had an interesting thought for a worst-case scenario, if VW decides to not follow the letter of the settlement and allow salvage titled cars that should be allowed according the agreement. If someone buys the car right now, they have 30 days to opt out. So, if VW does something unethical with rejecting the salvage titled cars, you can sell the car to your wife and have her opt out of the settlement to pursue outside legal action. Just worst case scenario recourse, if everything else is exhausted.
 

740GLE

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Yeah, it would be sweet living on 800 bucks a month, for life :rolleyes:...Mark

Don't confuse SS Disability with SSI suplemental security income.

SSI is federal welfare where eligibility is based on total assets, SS Disability is based off your previous earnings payed into the system.

Many people who feel entitled to the SSD claim they paid into the system so they have every right to it, whole industry of lawyers ready to back them up too. Kinda similar to people reading the VW court documents too.
 
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740GLE

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It definitely looks like VW is trying to either back out of keeping the Court order, or at least delay the process for salvage/rebuilt title vehicles, to discourage people who may be flipping junkers.
I think they are upholding the "intent" of the order, similar to what they did with stripped cars.

Yeah its gray area and the lawyers will loved scrutinizing every action, but its also in VW's best interest to not pay for cars that weren't on the road and had little or no intentions of going back on the road.
 

duratitus

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I must be missing something, because I understand the seller restitution amount as 10% of the vehicle value + $1,493.37

Where is the loophole that says VW is not required to offer buyback for vehicles that they've paid seller restitution for?

Also, since 6/28/16 was the last day to sell your vehicle and still be eligible for seller restitution, I'm thinking that any car that was salvaged after that date would not have any seller restitution to worry about.....

Same for anything salvaged after 9/16/16 since that was the deadline to register as an eligible seller.
 
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DanB36

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Where is the loophole that says VW is not required to offer buyback for vehicles that they've paid seller restitution for?
There isn't one, but the restitution for cars totaled after 9/16/16 is different. It's the full restitution (20%+$3k), though it doesn't seem that (1) very many people are aware of it, or (2) it's been paid very much yet. It's discussed in the CAS agreement, not in the FTC order.
 

DanB36

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I think they are upholding the "intent" of the order, similar to what they did with stripped cars.
I don't think so, and unlike what they did with the stripped cars, they left this part of the 3-liter settlement the same, which doesn't seem at all consistent with your understanding of the intent. But you know that already.
 

VWMark

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I must be missing something, because I understand the seller restitution amount as 10% of the vehicle value + $1,493.37

Where is the loophole that says VW is not required to offer buyback for vehicles that they've paid seller restitution for?

Also, since 6/28/16 was the last day to sell your vehicle and still be eligible for seller restitution, I'm thinking that any car that was salvaged after that date would not have any seller restitution to worry about.....

Same for anything salvaged after 9/16/16 since that was the deadline to register as an eligible seller.
In the current documents, they differentiate people just selling the cars versus cars that were totaled and turned over to the insurance. From the approved settlement agreement, section 4.2.2:

Any owner whose Eligible Vehicle was totaled and who consequently transferred title of his, her, or its vehicle to an insurance company on or after the Opt-Out Deadline, but before the end of the Claim Period, will be entitled to Owner Restitution but not a Buyback payment.

So any car totaled and transferred to the insurance company between 9/16/16 and 12/30/18 is eligible for the restitution payment.
 

Mythdoc

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I think they are upholding the "intent" of the order, similar to what they did with stripped cars.

Yeah its gray area and the lawyers will loved scrutinizing every action, but its also in VW's best interest to not pay for cars that weren't on the road and had little or no intentions of going back on the road.


Or at least to slow-walk these claims so the same capital is not used to make them pay over and over again for zombie cars.

I find it ironic that the thread is talking about whether VW is exploiting a "loophole." It's one of those upside down moments for me. But I already vented my spleen enough. Go on about yer business...
 

chief poncho

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I find it ironic that the thread is talking about whether VW is exploiting a "loophole.
I think the topic isn't about whether VW is exploiting the loophole, but whether or not VW is trying to close the loophole.
 

Mythdoc

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Where is the loophole that says VW is not required to offer buyback for vehicles that they've paid seller restitution for?

^^Chief: yes, I get it, but these words were used (sarcastically?) by OP in his most recent post.

I would like to see VW push back publicly on this, the way they did in the case of the stripped cars. They had opinion on their side there, and I suspect they would here as well. Since VW is about as popular as a cockroach (not a beetle) right now, that would be saying something! .02
 

bmwM5power

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^^Chief: yes, I get it, but these words were used (sarcastically?) by OP in his most recent post.

I would like to see VW push back publicly on this, the way they did in the case of the stripped cars. They had opinion on their side there, and I suspect they would here as well. Since VW is about as popular as a cockroach (not a beetle) right now, that would be saying something! .02
Im pretty certain it would make you sleep better if they did
 

ujames

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I don't think so, and unlike what they did with the stripped cars, they left this part of the 3-liter settlement the same, which doesn't seem at all consistent with your understanding of the intent. But you know that already.
However, the Canadian settlement has very different language on this. I still believe that VW is trying to use these modifications in the Canadian agreement and apply them to US claims.

G. AM I AN “EXCLUDED PERSON”?
The Settlement Agreement does not apply to anyone who is not a Settlement Class Member, including Excluded Persons. Excluded Persons are:
● All those who timely and properly exclude themselves (opt out) from the Settlement (see Question U);
● Anyone who owned an Eligible Vehicle on September 18, 2015 and sells the vehicle after January 4, 2017 other than through the Buyback and Trade-In options under the Settlement, except for those owners who transfer title to an insurance company on or after March 5, 2017 because the Eligible Vehicle was totalled or appraised as a total loss (see Question N);
● Anyone who owned an Eligible Vehicle on September 18, 2015 and who, on or after January 4, 2017 and before March 5, 2017, transfers title to an insurance company because the Eligible Vehicle was totalled or appraised as a total loss;
● Insurance companies and other owners of totalled Eligible Vehicles;
● Any lessees of an Eligible Vehicle leased from a leasing company other than
 

miltak

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I have 5 of rebuilt titles as well-I am a dealer and I have been rebuilding tdi's long before the settlement.
The buy back approvals have been going smoothly until April-not one offer since even though the documents are approved and in one case have been green-approved since Feb 26th.BTW-had last buyback finished 2 days ago may 11th-no issues there and the car had rebuilt title-was "totaled" in Jan 2017.
I talked to 2 settlement lawyers and several times called the 844 # and I was told since there are multiple claims they need to decide who gets what,but nobody will tell you time frame.
In settlement it says:
If you owned an Eligible Vehicle that was functioning and operable as of September 18, 2015, but was
subsequently totaled (and the title was transferred to an insurance company), you will be eligible for
benefits under the Class Action Settlement as described in this notice at Question 19. There is one exception: if your car is totaled after June 28, 2016, but before the opt-out date (September 16, 2016), you
are excluded from the settlement class and reserve your rights and claims against the Volkswagen entities.

I think VW had no clue and we turned several rebuilt tiles in with no issue,until one of the previous owners pushed the issue and asked for money and now VW doesn't know what to do.
As you know these cars bring lots of money even wrecked,because of the buyback.
If you register the car with VW for buyback you will get :
Please print this page for your records. In the event that your vehicle is totaled between now and your closing appointment, you may want to reference this offer in negotiations with your insurance company."
So why would previous owner get paid twice.I watched the pay off amounts of some cars we bought and most of them got paid by insurance company about the same as VW would pay them as buyback,so if VW wants to give them any money from "our" buyback amount even if it's half of the compensation money-like the seller would get if he sold it after sept 2015,but before jun 2016,then they got paid more then anyone else and I would loose money,because after what I pay for these car wrecked and cost of fixing them-if you remove half of compensation-I would loose money.
I think both the lawyers and VW didn't think about this very well.

The EPA clean air act covers even salvage vehicle for emission warranty,so just because vehicle got transferred to insurance company doesn't remove it from commerce.
You can hit a deer and repair cost gets close to 50% of the value of the car and insurance company will buy it from owner-therefore it's totaled,because insurance had to pay the total amount.I guess some people don't understand the "totaled vehicle" term-they hear totaled and they think car got rolled into a ball-not true.
The clause about cars on branded title as of sept 2015 and sold by salvage or junk yard was put there,because they didn't want people go dumpster diving-taking cars that were already being dismantled and bringing them back on the road just for the payout.This is not the case-all these cars we bought have been on the road the whole time and they just got damaged recently and woud have been fixed and issued regular rebuilt titles even if there was no buyback.
Almost all states allow cars be put back on the road after fixing them and inspection,so manufacturers void the basic warranty,but are still responsible for recalls and emission warranty,because of the clean air act.
Bottom line-I own a tdi,that VW has cheated on emission ,so they need to either fix it or buy it back and pay me compensation as stated in settlement or exclude me from settlement and there are plenty of lawyers,who will sue on my behalf and will win.
 
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ujames

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I have 5 of rebuilt titles as well-I am a dealer and I have been rebuilding tdi's long before the settlement.
The buy back approvals have been going smoothly until April-not one offer since even though the documents are approved and in one case have been green-approved since Feb 26th.BTW-had last buyback finished 2 days ago may 11th-no issues there and the car had rebuilt title-was "totaled" in Jan 2017.
I talked to 2 settlement lawyers and several times called the 844 # and I was told since there are multiple claims they need to decide who gets what,but nobody will tell you time frame.
Thanks for your post.

What's your next steps? Wait longer?
 

miltak

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At this point I will have to wait longer.What else can I do?
The lawyer sent me this"
California team confirmed that the salvage cars require additional analysis because most/all of them triggered duplicate claims. It appears that you’re stuck with the process because of the unique status of salvage cars. No option but to wait, apparently."
 
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