Looking for stronger head gasket for ALH

MAXRPM · May 15, 2019

I've had 2 head gaskets blown in my golf already and I'm trying to find out if anybody knows if there is any place where I can get a copper head gasket made for the ALH, I got the bolt ons with my golf, so custom made studs are already in place , pressure from the boost is just killing the head gasket, head can't be kept in its place, if I can't get a copper one I may have to try spray liquid copper on the OEM gasket, any suggestions?

Nero Morg · May 15, 2019

Is your head true? Are you using APRs?

MAXRPM · May 15, 2019

Nero Morg said:
Is your head true? Are you using APRs?[/QUOT

I got better than APRs, custom made to 141 ft tq on the studs I got, my Jetta got APRs

Rrusse11 · May 15, 2019

This may be completely crazy, but howzabout cutting one out of copper sheet?
Use a gasket as a pattern.

Copper's ez to anneal, just get the appropriate thickness, blueprint the head
to the block.

Nero Morg · May 15, 2019

Is your head square? Block?

jmodge · May 15, 2019

Ever consider having the head cut for o-rings?

Yourbuddysatin · May 15, 2019

Might be a good idea to get the head and block checked. Ever overheat it’s at all???

MAXRPM · May 15, 2019

Golf was never overheated, block is decked,I may have the head surfaced, although it may not need it, I'm running 42psi and it is lifting the head, trying to keep head in one place, and my W/M sytem is not helping my situation either, so I'm trying to get a better head gasket and running it without W/M

JFettig · May 16, 2019

What turbo(s) are you running 42psi on? Most turbos won't run 42psi very efficiently, you end up flowing less than if you ran 32psi. If you don't have an exhaust pressure gauge on there, put a 100psi gauge on it, you're probably running over 80psi exhaust pressure by 4000rpm.

"Conventional" tuning doesn't really work when you're pushing this kind of power, that's likely where your problem exists. If at any point you have a weird shudder or growl, it's because your timing map has way too much timing where it shouldn't.

Yucca · May 16, 2019

We dont have head gasget problems with 1.9TDI Compact diesel pulling tractors (350-500bhp). Do you use too much timing below 3000rpm or???

BigTurboAlh · May 16, 2019

Be carful going to 140ftlb. It started pulling the bosses out the block and kept blowing gaskets. I changed the block and stopped spraying water Ran hx30-hx40 compounds It built 58-60 psi I ran the thickest head gasket and arp studs torqued to 125ftlb never had a problem.

[486] · May 16, 2019

mls is miles ahead of copper

stop trying for 800 ft/lb, let it sing

bobbiemartin · May 17, 2019

I'm with the other posters in thinking you may be headed down the wrong path, but if you want a custom gasket you can get one here: https://www.cometic.com/p-35446-custom-gaskets.html

MAXRPM · May 17, 2019

32 psi my gtd1756vrk turbo boost all day long no problem, my 2265 turbo gets 42psi, the culprit is not the psi, iam really sure I should blame it on W/M. Thxs for the website for custom head gaskets

Mongler98 · May 17, 2019

[486] said:
mls is miles ahead of copper

stop trying for 800 ft/lb, let it sing

Apples to oranges. Many pros and cons on both sides. It's the application here that matters. Copper is superior but only because it's used in superior appliance.
It has no place on an engine that is not getting broken down after a single pull or a weekenvent. Or anything going to do over 500 miles on the build.

mk3pd · May 17, 2019

MAXRPM said:
Nero Morg said:

Is your head true? Are you using APRs?[/QUOT
I got better than APRs, custom made to 141 ft tq on the studs I got, my Jetta got APRs

Click to expand...

The studs you got is WAY too much for your head
Even the ARP2000 studs are overkill
There is nothing wrong with the OEM MLS head gasket
As long as the head and block is decked,a 12.9 stretch bolt is hard to beat
And surely a cooper gasket is a long step in the wrong direction

mk3pd · May 17, 2019

Mongler98 said:
Apples to oranges. Many pros and cons on both sides. It's the application here that matters. Copper is superior but only because it's used in superior appliance.
It has no place on an engine that is not getting broken down after a single pull or a weekenvent. Or anything going to do over 500 miles on the build.

I totally agree
It's either a top fuel gasket,or a 5:1 compression ratio 1920's T-Ford gasket

Mongler98 · May 17, 2019

3 main reasons copper gaskets are used
1: will deform before the head or block gets impressions from the gasket
2: cheap to make with a CNC table and a sheet of copper
3: usually reused MANY TIMES (for a top fuel engine, like twice lol

3 main Cons of copper
1: sustained use will constantly anneal the copper and it WILL very quickly deform and no longer provide the resistance force of the head studs causing a leak
2: very expensive to buy, vs making them on a million $ top fuel engine (sponsors and BS)
3: lots of labor

MLS gaskets are fine and if the block and head are true, will not be an issue if the engine is properly built
many people complaining about head lift (not just on TDI's) all share one ore more of many things in common
High boost
shade tree haggory power mods (even quality mods)
a builder/ owner who things a few weeks lurking on some forums makes them qualified to build a high power engine when in reality it takes lots of understanding and custom machine work and LOTS of blueprinting to make a reliable engine put down that level of power.

[486] · May 17, 2019

Mongler98 said:
Apples to oranges. Many pros and cons on both sides. It's the application here that matters. Copper is superior but only because it's used in superior appliance.
It has no place on an engine that is not getting broken down after a single pull or a weekenvent. Or anything going to do over 500 miles on the build.

no

only advantage over copper over MLS in top-line **** is sometimes the copper washes out before the aluminum head when a fire ring lets go

other than that 'but sometimes' case, mls with an o-ring is much stronger

"sustained use will constantly anneal the copper"

... Wow. That's about on par with 'hard driving will burn the coke out of my intake manifold'
there is no way any portion of your head gasket is getting to 700F

I just don't even. I made the mistake of replying to a mongler post. Again.

Rrusse11 · May 17, 2019

https://www.dragzine.com/tech-stories/engine/mls-head-gaskets-0219/

Thanks gents for sparking me into doing a little research.
Downright edjercashunal!

Mongler98 · May 17, 2019

Dude. Vibrations cause work hardening, and the surface of the copper facing the cylinder sees way over 700. Copper o'rings do NOT come in contact with the combustion chamber and are infact a surface to reinforce additional clapping pressure against the MLS gasket. I have yet to see a head just mounted to a block with only fire rings or o'rings as we are calling them right now. Maybe you could gain some by going to a drag race and hanging out in the pits while they tear down a top fuel dragger and ask some questions. Ask them if you can hold that gasket right after it comes off the engine. Dam thing is stiff af compared to the unused one but next to the combustion chamber jts soft. And if the engine runs for too long its mush aka annealed. Remeber here that top fuel dragsters and for that matter all of those non cooled engines use only the fuel gushing through them to coll them long enough for 1 maybe 2 passes.
Apples to oranges means that I'm comparing how they are used vs putting them in a normal engine.

JFettig · May 18, 2019

Yucca said:
We dont have head gasget problems with 1.9TDI Compact diesel pulling tractors (350-500bhp). Do you use too much timing below 3000rpm or???

This is likely the problem, Most tuners around here don't adjust timing under 3000rpm from stock.

MAXRPM · May 18, 2019

mk3pd said:
MAXRPM said:

The studs you got is WAY too much for your head
Even the ARP2000 studs are overkill
There is nothing wrong with the OEM MLS head gasket
As long as the head and block is decked,a 12.9 stretch bolt is hard to beat
And surely a cooper gasket is a long step in the wrong direction

Click to expand...

C'mon stock bolts are not enough, I'm telling you when you bump up your tdi believe me after doing a few hard runs, your head gasket start going bad, of course your comment is good for vnt 15 or vnt 17 but anything more with more boost, then your head start lifting even without W/M,,,, in my case here now the culprit is my W/M, but in the past I had same issues with other TDIs, with bigger turbos

mk3pd · May 18, 2019

MAXRPM said:
mk3pd said:

C'mon stock bolts are not enough, I'm telling you when you bump up your tdi believe me after doing a few hard runs, your head gasket start going bad, of course your comment is good for vnt 15 or vnt 17 but anything more with more boost, then your head start lifting even without W/M,,,, in my case here now the culprit is my W/M, but in the past I had same issues with other TDIs, with bigger turbos

Click to expand...

Well
I have never had any issues with mls gaskets on any engine I have built using stretch bolts
My previous Passat PD with 306hp has been running for many years using 12.9 bolts
And that’s with a 81.50 bore
It’s something going on with your tune in my opinion

MAXRPM · May 19, 2019

mk3pd said:
MAXRPM said:

Well
I have never had any issues with mls gaskets on any engine I have built using stretch bolts
My previous Passat PD with 306hp has been running for many years using 12.9 bolts
And that’s with a 81.50 bore
It’s something going on with your ,

that's why i posted on this thread so i can get somewhere with any other gasket better than OEM

Click to expand...

mk3pd · May 19, 2019

MAXRPM said:
mk3pd said:

MLS gaskets I've never tried, but i will try it, and that's why i posted this thread so i can get somewhere

Click to expand...

OEM gaskets are MLS (multi layer steel)

MAXRPM · May 19, 2019

mk3pd said:
MAXRPM said:

OEM gaskets are MLS (multi layer steel)

Click to expand...

OEM gaskets suck in my car,

mrchill · May 19, 2019

Aggressive timing makes more power sooner...but also makes higher PCP, which can cause gasket leakage. This may not be your issue...but I suspect anyone legitimately making big power under 3k blows gaskets. Of course...many will say that you shouldnt be making a big power under 3k. Thats why their gaskets dont blow as often...because they dont make enough pressure within the constraints of the RPM they are using. I have seen a few dynos of engines making strong power under 3k...and they say the gaskets dont fail. Hard to believe. The ones that come on strong after 3k? They dont have enough RPM left to reach the point where the PCP is too high. Especially since both the factory and most tuners taper fuel at higher revs.

[486] · May 20, 2019

nobody sets their timing on the dyno for peak torque across the entire range
you really can't get the low end stuff set up correctly because of the lack of load on most any chassis dyno

that's why you see the ones that last coinciding with guys that actually set the torque limiter up to work so it cancels out the untuned regions of the maps, so the moment you put it on the street and someone mats it in 6th at 1k RPM for the 30 seconds it takes to spool the turbo by 1500 you don't see the full fuel load with estimated injection timing.

mk3pd · May 22, 2019

MAXRPM said:
mk3pd said:

OEM gaskets suck in my car,

Click to expand...

It's not the gasket that sucks.
I have to say that this scenario with a "bad part" comes up all to often
All these years i have been doing this business,whenever something goes wrong people tends to blame the parts.

Like i said previously,the studs you are running are doing more harm than good
141 ft-lbs torque on fine threads is deforming the poor head
And it is pulling so hard on the block threads that the bolt hole area will lift,even though the threads start deep down the hole it will still lift the material around

Also the 42psi of boost on that type of turbo indicates a serious amount of backpressure no matter how well things flow through your engine

Looking for stronger head gasket for ALH

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