Timing Belts

Lightflyer1

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I have heard that it is much easier on the A5's than the older models. May not cost less though. Reading through the Bentley manual, it still seems pretty involved.
 

bhtooefr

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8606: Well, chains can be better in an OHV application, just like belts can be better in an OHC application.

However, belt change intervals are lengthening as time goes on (due to improvements in rubber technology), and (as more and more engines go to OHC) chain failure rates are increasing. Chain replacement labor costs MUCH more than belt replacement labor.
 

zanakas

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Belts have two advantages... they don't stretch like a chain, allowing for more precise timing, and they transmit vibration differently...
 

Harvieux

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zanakas said:
Belts have two advantages... they don't stretch like a chain, allowing for more precise timing, and they transmit vibration differently...
Exactamundo! The transmitting of vibration differently = much quieter operation. ;) Later!
 

Matthew_S

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2footbraker said:
Is there a kit available for the A5?
VW has a kit for $192, the part number is 038 198 119A. The water pump lists for $165 (part number 045 121 011F) and it doesn't look like there is an aftermarket alternative yet.
 

zanakas

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How about tools??? Metalnerd, where are you?
 
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hdeptech

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tools are the issue. cant find the tools for 06. I have my boss at work looking into it. He is from Germany and has worked with the engineers from VW. His friends are looking into tools. belts kits and injectors ect. He will be in Germany this next week and I reminded him to look into it.
 

Dieselgeek

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2footbraker said:
Is there a kit available for the A5?
I just sold my first A5 BRM Deluxe Timing Belt Kit to a fellow in North Texas who has 102K on his '06 Jetta. Not much magic to it, really. The water pump changed a little and the serp belt is shorter due to the engine not having a power steering pump but other than that it was very similar to the BEW PD engines. There was one engine mount stretch bolt that retailed for $9.28! It had a 6mm stud integral to the 16mm head.
 

zanakas

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corrado tdi said:
I just sold my first A5 BRM Deluxe Timing Belt Kit to a fellow in North Texas who has 102K on his '06 Jetta. Not much magic to it, really. The water pump changed a little and the serp belt is shorter due to the engine not having a power steering pump but other than that it was very similar to the BEW PD engines. There was one engine mount stretch bolt that retailed for $9.28! It had a 6mm stud integral to the 16mm head.
Are the BRM tools the same as BEW?
 

hevster1

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zanakas said:
Belts have two advantages... they don't stretch like a chain, allowing for more precise timing, and they transmit vibration differently...
Since when? Belts are used mainly for 2 reasons, Noise and price. Perfect example, On toyota's newest generation 4 cylinder corolla, camry, celica etc. they had to use a chain in order to get through emissions regulations. A belt flexed too much not allowing the precise cam timing needed at the higher rpm it runs at.
The only reason they still use a belt on the v6 and v8 models is the cam timing is less critical with the increase in displacement/lower rpm use and because of the size of the belt it flexes far less than a belt for a 4 cylinder.
 

hevster1

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bhtooefr said:
8606: Well, chains can be better in an OHV application, just like belts can be better in an OHC application.
However, belt change intervals are lengthening as time goes on (due to improvements in rubber technology), and (as more and more engines go to OHC) chain failure rates are increasing. Chain replacement labor costs MUCH more than belt replacement labor.
When was the last time you saw a non OHV car? Flat heads went out a long time ago. OHV or overhead valves have been around for a long time. All import cars use OHC or overhead cams currently and the American manufacturers are also starting to switch over. Belt replacement intervals are increasing, that is true but chains still go longer. Labor isn't really the problem depending on the engine to quote Motor's Labor guide a t-belt replacement on an ALH is 4.0 hours (Belt ONLY) while a chain on a 98-01 Corolla with A/C is 2.9 hours. The costs are the gears and chain as well as the adjuster and guides.
Chain failures increasing? Not at all. In the 80's I used to see chains fail as early as 60k on some engines. Now it is a rare case provided that the owners change their oil regularly or use a quality synthetic to extend the interval.
 

bhtooefr

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Ah, by OHV, I meant pushrods... yes, I'm aware that OHC engines are technically OHV as well... :rolleyes:
 

zanakas

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hevster1 said:
Since when? Belts are used mainly for 2 reasons, Noise and price. Perfect example, On toyota's newest generation 4 cylinder corolla, camry, celica etc. they had to use a chain in order to get through emissions regulations. A belt flexed too much not allowing the precise cam timing needed at the higher rpm it runs at.
I should revise my statement. Through the working life of the belt, a belt (versus a chain) should introduce less play than a chain. Belts do not stretch (contrary to some opinions), and a synchronous belt should not "drift" timing at all. Wear on a chain (especially roller varieties), will eventually introduce some "slop"...

For inertia reasons (mass of belt versus chain, especially while moving), lash (whipping, resonance) is less energetic, and hence easier to dampen. The longer the run between pulleys (OHC inline vs. pushrod V-configuration), the more prominent this becomes. Belts generally serve to dampen vibration, due to their construction, vs. a chain, which can transmit or even amplify torsional effects.

You are right on price..the cost of properly dealing with the effects of lash is much higher on chain systems that need precise timing. Check out the cost of doing a Porsche timing chain (chains), a'la 944 or 928. The single reason I never bought one. Also, check out the recommended intervals on them. Granted, this is an "older" design, but the

They are also quieter (right there, too), and require no lubrication to operate (decreasing windage losses,and seal complexity). Another cost issue.

Toyota's engineers, for whatever their reasons, found a chain to be a better system. Maybe we will see more of them in the future. However, as I stated, MOST inline-4 engines still use a belt.

I am not arguing that a belt is ultimately more durable than a chain, nor if each is applied properly which system is better. In the vast majority of modern engine designs, the respective engineers have found belts to be a better compromise (which is what much of engineering is, a compromise (usually between durability and price)).

Though, I can't see precise cam timing being more of an issue than on a PD engine, nor will a 4 cylinder cam drive see more stresses.... only lessened effect is velocity.

Here's an article (admittedly, by a belt manufacturer). https://www.gates.com/file_display_common.cfm?thispath=Gates/documents_module&file=MTZ.pdf
 
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hevster1

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I should have said SOME of the V6 and V8 models. Oops.

As far as t-belts not stretching do this; take a new t-belt and a used t-belt for the same car and measure them. You will find that the used one has in fact stretched. Yes a chain will stretch as well but that is why there are automatic chain tensioners. You saw them on some belt systems as well to compensate for stretch.
As far as most inline 4's Nissan uses chains and I am reasonably sure that most of the other manufacturers do as well. A diesel valvetrain is under far less stress than a high revving gas engine. Simple reason-RPM.
Precision cam timing is important in many area's on a gas engine. Emissions, power, fuel mileage and driveability are all affected by it. You could even get an engine to run hotter if the cam timing was off.
In the future you will probably see VW go to chains on both gas and diesel engines as emissions regs get tighter.
 

El Dobro

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Let's see, the 2006 owner's manual says to change the belt at 90,000 and also has a listing for changing it at 100,000. The paper Bentley says to change the 2005 and 2006 belt at 80,000. The VW site says to change the 2005 belt at 100,000 and the 2006 at 80,000. They don't split the maintenance between the 2005 and the 2005.5.

If VW updated the timing belt on the earlier model to 100,000, why did they drop it to 80,000 for the newer model?
 

Dieselgeek

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zanakas said:
Are the BRM tools the same as BEW?
Still waiting to hear back from the customer to see if the Metalnerd PD tool kit had everything required to do the job. I have not reviewed the procedure. The tensioner, belt, and roller are the same between all PD engine codes.
 

bhtooefr

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Interesting. So why are VWoA and Bentley recommending an 80,000 mile interval? More forces on the cam or something?
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
The Bentley I have states 100k for all PDs, in A4, A5, and B5 cars. This is the CD version. Alldata says the same (just checked ;) ).

I have done several PDs at 100k. I think it is perfectly safe to do it then, as I have not seen any issues with them yet. These gave all been A4 chassis cars.
 

MOGolf

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corrado tdi said:
Still waiting to hear back from the customer to see if the Metalnerd PD tool kit had everything required to do the job. I have not reviewed the procedure. The tensioner, belt, and roller are the same between all PD engine codes.
The BEW engine needs the T10050 to hold the crank. The BRM may need the T10100 to hold the crank depending on which crank pulley it has. To tell the difference you have to look at the pulley. If the TDC mark is at one of the bolt holes (as pictured in the BEW procedure I posted), it uses the T10050. If the mark is between bolt holes (1 o'clock position with engine at TDC), then it uses the T10100.

They also phased in a new tensioner that uses a hex key to adjust the tension instead of the two pin tensioner tool.

And the belt tensioning procedure is different. To do it right you need a counter hold tool for the cam pulley (T10172 is official tool) in a step that further pretensions the belt.

Since Deafbug can't follow my directions, I'll wait for him to post the BRM procedure.
 

zanakas

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Another question, maybe a little off subject. I was considering, due to some of the horror stories I've heard, pulling the valve cover off when I do my timing belt and inspecting the lobes thoroughly...

I'm not quite there yet (52k), but I have to plan...

Oilhammer, have you had any of them off? I'd consider replacing the cam and/or rockers as insurance...
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
No, I have not. Maybe pull the V.C. off at 100k and take a visual peak, though. Although if you are running the correct oil and the engine makes no unusual sounds then I might not worry about it.
 

mtbr297

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8606 said:
Some manufactures are going back to timing chains. If timing chains can cause damage like belts why would they go back to that design? Up till this thread, I thought timing chains were better than belts.

Here's the scary question (I don't believe anyone has asked yet). What can we expect to pay for a new timing belt installed?
I think the parts cost about 300. Did one last week. It was an 06, the guy put 95k miles in 9 months. The top 2 horizontal bolts for the engine mount to the engine block are longer than the other engines. You can remove the engine mount on the BRM engine. I will post some pics and more info later.
 
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mtbr297

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zanakas said:
Are the BRM tools the same as BEW?
The crank lock is different if it is a BRM uses t10100 for oval crank gear and t10050 for the BEW round crank gear. My local dealer said he could order the t10100 but I got mine from Metalnerd. I didn't see MoGolf's reply before I posted.
 
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oilhammer

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gquenstedt said:
Which Toyota V8 uses a chain?
Both the 4.6L and the 5.7L each have a nightmarish network of FOUR chains, as do the 2.5L, 3.0L, 3.5L, and 4.0L GR series V6 engines.

There will also be a 5.0L chain drive V8 soon.
 
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gquenstedt

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oilhammer said:
Both the 4.6L and the 5.7L each have a nightmarish network of FOUR chains, as do the 2.5L, 3.0L, 3.5L, and 4.0L GR series V6 engines.

There will also be a 5.0L chain drive V8 soon.
Learn something new every day. The only Toyota V8 that I have experience with is the 4.7 in my Tundra which has a belt. But the new 5.7 in the Tundra has 2 chains. That is an interesting design change.
 

oilhammer

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gquenstedt said:
Learn something new every day. The only Toyota V8 that I have experience with is the 4.7 in my Tundra which has a belt. But the new 5.7 in the Tundra has 2 chains. That is an interesting design change.
The 5.7L has 4 chains. One each for each bank, then a cam-to-cam chain on each bank. They did away with the [much simpler] gear drive for the cam-to-cam setup mainly due to the double VVT arrangement, which I am pretty sure the 5.7L uses as well.

Honestly, I would MUCH rather have the belt driven 4.7L. Tried and true, bulletproof and reliable. Only issue I have ever seen on the 4.7L is cracked exhaust manifolds (somewhat common on the Land Cruiser/LX 470) and a starter once in a while (requires intake removal, but actually a pretty easy job).

The 4.7L (and its 4.0L and 4.3L relatives) are also very easy to service...spark plugs, timing belts, etc. are all pretty easy to do.

I personally think the 4.3L VVT all-aluminum V8 is one of if not THE best V8 engine ever made. It really shames the domestic V8s. I bet a 300k mile LS430's engine will have less wear internally than a 50k mile GM pushrod dinasaur.
 
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gsxr1k

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What's your guys opinion on the importance of changing the guide roller and tensioner or water pump when doing the timing belt. My mech's online shop manual doesn't recomend changing them with the TB. I have 80K on the tdi. He figures they'd be fine till the next change (160K). Is there anyone who've had the items go out and damage anything? Wouldn't you hear those bearings going bad or have a leak from the water pump before anything actually failed?
 
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