VW Rejecting Non-Clean Titles?

halbert

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2.0, 3.0? What is the hx behind your claim? Was it ineligible and sent to CRC?
2.0, '14 JSW. Purchased new in June '14. In accident 11/25/16, insurance totaled but never transferred title to insurance. Kept possession based on original settlement info. Holds certificate of salvage (not registerable) in PA. In limbo for a year.

Based on the 'group 2' reading of the Feb 26 document, the crux is the definition of operable. Otherwise I am original owner, accident after Sept 18, 2015.

Second question: do I have to surrender the vehicle to VW for original owner restitution?
 

halbert

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If you can't register it, it's not considered operable.
Which is a change from the original settlement language. Sigh.

How can I find out if I have to actually surrender the vehicle? Which means paying for a tow to the dealer for no good reason. The letter implies it when it talks about surrendering for buyback...but doesn't really say anything about the restitution payment requirement.
 

bizzle

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Which is a change from the original settlement language. Sigh.
How can I find out if I have to actually surrender the vehicle? Which means paying for a tow to the dealer for no good reason. The letter implies it when it talks about surrendering for buyback...but doesn't really say anything about the restitution payment requirement.
I guess you can interpret it as a change, but some of us were pointing out over a year ago that it was the only reasonable way to interpret the settlement terms. This issue was brought up during the stripping era and the people arguing against it were, like here, predisposed to believe they were right and VW was wrong. The judge ruled back then that cars had to be operable so that's an old change but even under the original black letter text the cars were required to be able to drive under their own power (which non-registered cars can't legally on the streets, which is the logic some of us tried to explain before the stripping modification and the logic the judge used to reach his conclusion).
 

yurkin89

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Why would it matter if a prior owner was a lessee or not and whether or not that lessee received restitution or not? I don't read that condition anywhere nor do I understand the logic behind it. The new owner of the car that was purchased at auction and restored/titled should be eligible as per (iii) of page 40 of the Feb Claims Supervisor Report.
Spoke to Phong-Chau G. Nguyen according to him if the car was leased on
Sep. 2016 only the lesee will be eligible for his restitution part only. No buy back will be available for next owner!
 

drsven

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Which is a change from the original settlement language. Sigh.

How can I find out if I have to actually surrender the vehicle? Which means paying for a tow to the dealer for no good reason. The letter implies it when it talks about surrendering for buyback...but doesn't really say anything about the restitution payment requirement.
Appeal with the CRC, highlight in red below. It can't hurt to try. If all else fails and they only offer a restitution payment, you should be able to retain the vehicle.

(ii) Owners who acquired their vehicles prior to September 18, 2015, with a nonbranded
or salvage rebuilt title may be eligible for both Vehicle Value and Owner
Restitution if the vehicles currently have a branded title (including salvage and
salvage rebuilt titles)
,
provided that all other eligibility requirements are met. If
the vehicle currently has a brand of junk, non-repairable, “parts only,” or any
equivalent brand denoting that the vehicle can never be rebuilt or repaired, the
vehicle is eligible only for Owner Restitution.
 

bizzle

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In accident 11/25/16, insurance totaled but never transferred title to insurance. Kept possession based on original settlement info. Holds certificate of salvage (not registerable) in PA.
When an insurance company totals your car they report it to the DMV and your title is no longer valid.

That certificate of salvage you received is your current paperwork on the car. The old title is void even though you physically kept it in your desk otherwise you could take that car and sell it someone as a "clean" title car and they wouldn't find out until the DMV sent them their new title (or worse, they wouldn't even be able to register it once the VIN was cross-referenced in the computer).

Over here on the west coast, insurance companies will tell you to take the title (if you own it) and write VOID all over it and then mail it in, but even if they let you keep it the title isn't valid anymore. Some states are more loose in this regard and aren't as proactive at keeping people from washing titles or selling totaled cars with old titles and then the new buyer gets the transferred title with a brand on it.

If you are eligible for anything at all, it'll be for owner's restitution. It'll be an uphill battle to argue for more. As far as VW, class counsel, and the judge are concerned you received an offer of just compensation from your insurance company at the time of the accident.
 

halbert

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So the question now is....

The letter is the boilerplate buyback letter, and it talks about making an appointment and surrendering the vehicle. It doesn't really say if the vehicle has to go to VW for restitution only. Still feels like I'm in a crack.
 

bizzle

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So the question now is....
The letter is the boilerplate buyback letter, and it talks about making an appointment and surrendering the vehicle. It doesn't really say if the vehicle has to go to VW for restitution only. Still feels like I'm in a crack.
The restitution was supposed to make owners whole in regards to the scandal of driving high NOx vehicles that were sold under the "clean diesel" campaign.

The buyback amount was supposed to make owners whole for returning their vehicles to VW.

That should mean you will receive the restitution without surrounding your vehicle.
 

fredthe

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When an insurance company totals your car they report it to the DMV and your title is no longer valid.
This is not universally true. I have two (non-TDI) vehicles that were declared totaled by the insurance company (and show as such in VIN searches) but the Maryland MVA continues to register them. The damage was mostly cosmetic and I was able to pay for the repairs out-of-pocket for less than the insurance company settlement, but I never had to get a salvage inspection.

This is a prime example of the issues when dealing with totaled vehicles, every state is different.
 

bizzle

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This is not universally true. I have two (non-TDI) vehicles that were declared totaled by the insurance company (and show as such in VIN searches) but the Maryland MVA continues to register them. The damage was mostly cosmetic and I was able to pay for the repairs out-of-pocket for less than the insurance company settlement, but I never had to get a salvage inspection.
This is a prime example of the issues when dealing with totaled vehicles, every state is different.
I didn't say anything about being able to register your car, but without a doubt your original, clean title is no longer valid even if you still have it in your hand. Your state may not require you to turn it in, but if you sell your car with that old title and fail to disclose its status you would be committing a crime.

While every state will handle what they do with titles differently, all states are going to require an insurance company report a total loss claim to them and just because you happen to physical hold some paperwork in your hand it's not safe to assume you didn't relinquish certain rights to the vehicle when you claim a total loss.
 
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fookin

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Spoke to Phong-Chau G. Nguyen according to him if the car was leased on
Sep. 2016 only the lesee will be eligible for his restitution part only. No buy back will be available for next owner!
So then:

Prior owner leased, wrecked after 2016, lessee received restitution (or some split between lessee and VW), auction, new owner, rebuilt, registered, no buyback or restitution.

Same as above but prior owner owned, buyback for value only available.

That's all new information.
 

lvrpl

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I didn't say anything about being able to register your car, but without a doubt your original, clean title is no longer valid even if you still have it in your hand. Your state may not require you to turn it in, but if you sell your car with that old title and fail to disclose its status you would be committing a crime.

While every state will handle what they do with titles differently, all states are going to require an insurance company report a total loss claim to them and just because you happen to physical hold some paperwork in your hand it's not safe to assume you didn't relinquish certain rights to the vehicle when you claim a total loss.
This is not correct. There are, in fact, a few states where a car could be declared a total loss by insurance but not issued a salvage title (nor would it turn to salvage when turned in to another state's DMV).

For example, in Colorado, hail damage does not cause a title to be branded. So there are many cars in Colorado that suffer hail damage and are declared a total loss by the insurance company but the state does not and will not issue a branded title. The title stays clean, even if you take it to another state to title and register. Hence, a Carfax will say it was totaled but the title is legitimately clean still. A call to the Colorado DMV will confirm this. Texas is similar.

As others have stated, the bottom line really is that salvage titling practices and requirements vary, sometimes widely, from state to state.
 
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bizzle

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You are clearly misunderstanding some internet information and I'm not going to argue with your. Suffice to say, the process you think you are describing is illegal.
 

drsven

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You are clearly misunderstanding some internet information and I'm not going to argue with your. Suffice to say, the process you think you are describing is illegal.
Chill out man! Not every discussion or disagreement needs to turn into an argument! :)
 

lvrpl

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You are clearly misunderstanding some internet information and I'm not going to argue with your. Suffice to say, the process you think you are describing is illegal.
Again, incorrect. If you're so certain that you're correct, I'd challenge you to call the Colorado DMV and ask them. Seriously - before you dismissively brush off other people because you assume you must know better, call the source. I am 100% certain you will find you are mistaken, at least in the state of Colorado (and Texas, for that matter).

Don't take my word for it. Call them. Just to prove me wrong. Also, you describe that process as illegal. Being the legal expert you've told us you are previously, please show us the legal statute in Colorado that dictates a branded title must be issued in every case that an insurance company declares a car a total loss.

And if you can actually cite anyone or anything saying that what I described is illegal or not possible in Colorado, I will happily apologize and and readily admit that I was mistaken. And by the way, while I may not be a trained attorney as you've implied you are, I have worked with an auto rebuilder for a couple of decades and am very familiar with how the process of branding titles works in states across the country. But again, in this case, a short chat with Colorado's DMV and Titles staff will easily answer this question.
 
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lvrpl

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Again, incorrect. If you're so certain that you're correct, I'd challenge you to call the Colorado DMV and ask them. Seriously - before you dismissively brush off other people because you assume you must know better, call the source. I am 100% certain you will find you are mistaken, at least in the state of Colorado (and Texas, for that matter).

Don't take my word for it. Call them. Just to prove me wrong. Also, you describe that process as illegal. Being the legal expert you've told us you are previously, please show us the legal statute in Colorado that dictates a branded title must be issued in every case that an insurance company declares a car a total loss.

And if you can actually cite anyone or anything saying that what I described is illegal or not possible in Colorado, I will happily apologize and and readily admit that I was mistaken. And by the way, while I may not be a trained attorney as you've implied you are, I have worked with an auto rebuilder for a couple of decades and am very familiar with how the process of branding titles works in states across the country. But again, in this case, a short chat with Colorado's DMV and Titles staff will easily answer this question.
Ok, I'll help you out a bit. Take a look at this link straight from the Colorado DMV website (which cites Colorado statutes), and notice the phrase "excluding hail damage".

https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/dmv/salvage-vehicles

Sure, most states don't do this. And, yes, in the vast majority of cases in the vast majority states, a car that is totaled by an insurance company must and does result in a branded title. But not always. And your absolute statements on this topic aren't correct and are spreading misinformation to a lot of people that are already in a stressful situation.
 

bizzle

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Ok, I'll help you out a bit. Take a look at this link straight from the Colorado DMV website (which cites Colorado statutes), and notice the phrase "excluding hail damage".

https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/dmv/salvage-vehicles

Sure, most states don't do this. And, yes, in the vast majority of cases in the vast majority states, a car that is totaled by an insurance company must and does result in a branded title. But not always. And your absolute statements on this topic aren't correct and are spreading misinformation to a lot of people that are already in a stressful situation.
The link you provided is evidence that Colorado handles title brands differently from other states in regards to hail damage, which is a point I already made ("every state will handle what they do with titles differently" post #1298). The link you provided is not evidence that an insurance company does not have to report the loss to the DMV in Colorado, which is the actual point you are trying to argue with me about.

In the two examples fredthe provided, his DMV didn't rebrand his titles but they still come up as totaled via a VIN search (because the insurance company reported the total loss). You wrote, "The title stays clean, even if you take it to another state to title and register. Hence, a Carfax will say it was totaled but the title is legitimately clean still."

It shows up on the CARFAX as totaled because the insurance company reported it even though the DMV won't rebrand the title (I never made a claim about what a state will or won't do about branding a title other than to say they handle that differently).

Also, the title is not "legitimately clean still." Regardless of what the DMV does or doesn't do, if someone sells a car as a "clean" title when it has been totaled by an insurance company that person is engaging in fraud and the behavior would usually be regarded as title washing, which is a federal crime.

More importantly, you are trying to drag me into an argument about a scenario that is wholly irrelevant to halbert's situation and simply muddying the waters about details that don't answer his questions.
 

bizzle

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Bizzle, aka Mr. Bigglesworth, has a history of impassioned proclamations so don't take them too seriously. I think somewhere he's claimed he invented the question mark. Don't make him mad.
I have a history of "proclamations" that turn out to be accurate--both in the stripping discussion and now in this one. I don't make any claims to the seriousness of my advice, but in so far as I've consistently, accurately explained why I think the judge or legal teams will decide a situation in a certain way it seems to me that ignoring what I write simply because you don't like the content is doing yourself a disservice.

I'm not charging anyone here for anything I write so take it or leave it. The personal insults you and others hurl at me are based on you not liking what I write and less about the accuracy of my opinions.
 

halbert

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Yesterday, for what it's worth (probably not much) I had a chat session with someone at the claims website. Here is the response to my question, "What is the definition of operable?"

Khaleah @ 3/9/18 10:00 AM :
==> I would be happy to assist you regarding inoperable vehicles. A vehicle is considered inoperable if it is not able to be driven under the power of its own 2.0L engine.

And, this vehicle does fit that definition. At the moment (and my wife may see it differently), I'm inclined to file an appeal with the CRC under the perspective that I have nothing to loose. The car has been taking up space in my garage for well over a year, another month won't make much difference.

And, the way the letter reads, I do have to have it towed to the dealer (the first round owner appreciation payout thing gives me a free tow supposedly) and surrender the vehicle and title. I'm a little concerned that the letter specifically uses "clear title" in the language.
 

halbert

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Let me be clear on operability---at least a few months ago, with a jump, it would start and move under it's own power.
 

lvrpl

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The link you provided is evidence that Colorado handles title brands differently from other states in regards to hail damage, which is a point I already made ("every state will handle what they do with titles differently" post #1298). The link you provided is not evidence that an insurance company does not have to report the loss to the DMV in Colorado, which is the actual point you are trying to argue with me about.
In the two examples fredthe provided, his DMV didn't rebrand his titles but they still come up as totaled via a VIN search (because the insurance company reported the total loss). You wrote, "The title stays clean, even if you take it to another state to title and register. Hence, a Carfax will say it was totaled but the title is legitimately clean still."
It shows up on the CARFAX as totaled because the insurance company reported it even though the DMV won't rebrand the title (I never made a claim about what a state will or won't do about branding a title other than to say they handle that differently).
Also, the title is not "legitimately clean still." Regardless of what the DMV does or doesn't do, if someone sells a car as a "clean" title when it has been totaled by an insurance company that person is engaging in fraud and the behavior would usually be regarded as title washing, which is a federal crime.
More importantly, you are trying to drag me into an argument about a scenario that is wholly irrelevant to halbert's situation and simply muddying the waters about details that don't answer his questions.
Um...ok, sorry if I was unclear or confusing. But I really don't understand what you're saying now. Perhaps it's semantics. When I say "clean," I mean a title that has no brands. I never said that an insurance company in Colorado does not report the total loss to the Colorado DMV. I believe they do (although I'm not certain, to be honest). And yes, the VIN search will show the car was a total loss. But regardless, Colorado does NOT brand the title. And so if you go buy that car and take it to the DMV in Colorado to retitle in your name, the state will issue you a new title in your name with no brand, per their statutes (just as the title had no title when in the previous owner's name when they sold it to you). Or, if you buy that car and you live in another state, the owner will sign over the unbranded Colorado title to you and you'll take that title to your state's DMV to retitle in your name and state; your state will take the title from you (that was signed over to you), communicate with Colorado to make sure it's valid and hasn't been tampered with (including correct branded status), be told by Colorado that there are no brands, and issue you an unbranded title in your state.

In this case, you have followed each state's pre-determined process exactly, not tried to sneakily find a loophole (I guess you could argue that it's my opinion that you weren't trying to be sneaky, but I'm not sure what else you'd do in this case). Maybe you're arguing that your new state is making a mistake and it is your responsibility to require them to change the clean title to a branded title? I don't believe that would be correct but admit I don't know with certainty - if you know otherwise (and can cite anything in another state's statutes detailing this), I would genuinely like to know. Or are you simply arguing that it's not "clean" because the VIN search will show it was declared a total loss? That would be true, but that's different from having a branded title (albeit the same in most states and cases).

Now, there are cases of people trying to white wash titles by taking a branded title, retitling it in Colorado or some similar state to try and remove the brand, and then again retitling back in their original state. Honestly, I know this happens but I'm not wholly knowledgable in exactly what conditions (or potential misrepresentations) allow this to happen. I would agree that this is something that should never be done and that is most likely illegal (especially if you then try to sell the car and pass it off as "clean"). But this white washing is very different than the case above where a car was originally titled in Colorado and suffered hail damage in Colorado.

One last point I would add to illustrate that being declared a total loss does not have to equal a branded title: in some states (I believe Utah is one), you can purchase a salvage titled vehicle and then apply to the state to have the title restored to an unbranded condition. This requires a much more extensive inspection and application process than the typical case where you are just trying to rebuild the salvage car and convert the title to a salvage rebuilt condition/branding. But in that case, you'd end up with a VIN search showing the car was declared a total loss but a title that is legitimately not branded via a process intentionally set up by the state to do just that.

Finally, if you're simply saying that in either of these cases it would be illegal to pass a car of as "clean" because the VIN search shows it was totaled - I guess that's a fine statement. I would never advocate to misrepresent or lie about the vehicle history if it was totaled. But that absolutely does not mean the title should necessarily be branded.

Again, I'd sincerely like to know if I'm wrong or misunderstanding something. Please do help me understand where I've got this wrong.
 

GoFaster

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I think you are confusing the issuance (or failure to) of a piece of paper that says "salvage", with the car's official status regardless of what that piece of paper says. If another state is somehow convinced to issue a fully clean title after an insurance company has officially written off the vehicle, that is title washing.

An insurance company may make a payout on a vehicle without writing it off if the claim is worth less than the vehicle. That's not a write off. An insurance company can come to a cash settlement with an owner who is keeping the car and plans to repair it. That's not a write off.
 

mirtdi

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Titles

So many scenarios that can happen to make it title washing, however if you purchase from someone which is very common and they disclose the car was in accident in the past this cannot be title washing it was disclosed. No sellers including Jesus himself goes ahead and sells a car, advises accident, give a copy of the estimate, what was fixed, photos before and after etc etc.

This issue of title washing is ridiculous and extremely hard to prove. Simply put if an insurance company or state didnt change the title to salvage so it would have to be rebuilt to be back on the road i really find it hard to believe that a judge would side with vw on this. if more than one state practices non branding of cars with damage is this illegal, if so, i would think vw would have to go after each state for doing this, consumers are not responsible for this process or really checking a cars title prior to purchase, same with selling the car if someone asks you are required to tell them, if they do not ask i dont believe you are required to do so.

The cars bizzle may be referring to and others here have minimal damage do not effect it to run and drive ie hail. Mnny cars can be totalled at lower cost threshold depending on insurance carrier, if parts supply available vs renting a car for 2 months to wait, state circumstances, the insured circumstances ie they prefer to just take repair cost and total the car instead of fix, we could go on and on here.

I have seen cars that look like a banana that still have clear titles on a rare occasion, im sure that would be no problem for vw to prove, but to get photos from a prior accident, accident reports, bill of sales to and from owner to owner, any thing else to prove otherwise seems like a stretch for vw to do on cars that have a clear title and an accident history. The time and resources involved to fight this it may not be worth it, depending on how many owners present cars like this.

Its great to have some discussion here it provokes thought and help into this matter. Sometimes you are right, sometimes you are wrong, many people here were wrong when they said in no way would vw accept rebuilt titles, now they are under their guidelines, happy for us all who actually have cars to turn in under this circumstance.
 
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lvrpl

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I think you are confusing the issuance (or failure to) of a piece of paper that says "salvage", with the car's official status regardless of what that piece of paper says. If another state is somehow convinced to issue a fully clean title after an insurance company has officially written off the vehicle, that is title washing.

An insurance company may make a payout on a vehicle without writing it off if the claim is worth less than the vehicle. That's not a write off. An insurance company can come to a cash settlement with an owner who is keeping the car and plans to repair it. That's not a write off.
I think you are confusing "if another state is somehow convinced to issue a fully clean title" with the a situation where the state intentionally, knowingly, and explicitly dictates to the vehicle owner and insurance company what is to happen to the branding (or lack thereof) on the title.

In the specific case of hail damage in Colorado, the state explicitly dictates via a statute that a vehicle declared a total loss by an insurance company due to hail damage will NOT have the title branded. If this was a car originally titled in Colorado before the hail damage, it is in no way white washing. If one wants to call it white washing, it is state-mandated and state-driven white washing.

Again, it is admittedly a very narrow set of circumstances where this happens though.
 

lvrpl

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Look, all I'm saying is the blanket statement that if a car has been declared a total loss by an insurance company, there is absolutely no way it can have a title legitimately free of any brands is simply incorrect. In most cases, sure, but not in all.
 

drsven

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@halbert
Never mind he naysayers, I would file the appeal. Your PA certificate of salvage is rebuildable in your state. The language in the report states folks in your situation can currently hold a salvage rebuilt or salvage. Additionally, your current PA certificate *isn’t* an equivalent brand denoting that the vehicle can never be rebuilt or repaired. Good luck!
 
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