TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

TooSlick · Dec 4, 2012

You could try a 5w-40, MB 229.51 oil. The Mobil 1/ESP 5w-40 has the same level of ash (0.6%), as what you're using and is a bit thicker. So listers are already using it and it works fine too.

I'm not a fan of mixing oils with different additive chemistries.

TS

bobt2382 · Dec 4, 2012

TooSlick said:
I'm not a fan of mixing oils with different additive chemistries.

TS

Good point!

kooyajerms · Dec 4, 2012

This may be why your dyno was acting funny Bob. UNLEASH THE BEAST.

bobt2382 · Dec 4, 2012

kooyajerms said:
This may be why your dyno was acting funny Bob. UNLEASH THE BEAST.

Ohhhh!

I hope that is the only reason!

Bob

vwthingguy · Dec 10, 2012

Latest UOA 2101 Jetta

Here is my latest UOA from Blackstone labs. I shortened this run down to 6934 miles due to the results from my previous UAO. It seems better, and it may have been the collection methods used (dealer). I changed the oil this time to ensure a correct sample was obtained. I changed the oil to Amsoil 5W30 Euro this time, and plan to run it 10K miles and then sample to see how it compares to the Castrol SLX LL03. Please feel free to comment and offer opinions.

TooSlick · Dec 10, 2012

Vwthing,

This does look better, despite what the "experts" will tell you about shorter service intervals generating higher wear rates. But I digress....

You can generally go down to a TBN of approx 1.5 on these VW 507.00 oils without an issue of corrosive/chemical wear. Nothing really stands out here except the trace of fuel and the corresponding marginally low FP.

The specs on the Amsoil 5w-30 Euro oil are very good. I'll be interested to see how it works under these driving conditions.

TS

Airstream · Dec 11, 2012

2nd Oil Analysis

Welp here is my 2nd oil analysis since owning the car. Its a 2000 1.9 ALH, with around 200k on the motor. THe oil is Pension Perf. II 5w-40. It seems this oil works well, but I am tired of ordering it from online at a premium so I have switched to t6 and will see how that compares next oil change.
I really don't know what to make of the Lead. That's bearings right? Anything I can do or should I be worried? Any help is appreciated

TooSlick · Dec 11, 2012

'Stream,

Your flashpoints are excellent. I'm guessing you do lots of high speed driving. With 200k on the motor your bearing clearances have naturally increased a bit, which will decrease oil pressure and result in marginally higher bearing wear. These tests don't show a TBN, but with only 7500 miles on the samples I doubt that's an issue.

A thicker, API/CJ-4 spec oil like the Rotella T6 should reduce the Pb levels a bit. All your other wear metal concentrations are fine; soot and silicon are fine as well. This engine is in very good shape internally....

TS

Airstream · Dec 11, 2012

Awesome

Thanks TooSlick!

That will be interesting to see how the T6 affects it, I hope you are right. And I actually do at least half of my driving pure city. I have been thinking about getting new injector nozzles, but since there is no fuel in the oil and everything else looks fine I may wait.

Again thanks for the help.

TooSlick · Dec 11, 2012

Stream,

You should have no problem going to a 10k service interval with any API/CJ-4 spec, synthetic oil. A thicker oil will improve the ring seal, so your soot levels (total solids), may actually go down a bit. These are much better oils than the old VW 505.00 oil that was originally recommended for your engine variant.

TS

Bob_Fout · Dec 11, 2012

TooSlick said:
Stream,

You should have no problem going to a 10k service interval with any API/CJ-4 spec, synthetic oil. A thicker oil will improve the ring seal, so your soot levels (total solids), may actually go down a bit. These are much better oils than the old VW 505.00 oil that was originally recommended for your engine variant.

TS

This is all true, but on the flip side (devil's advocate), 502.00/505.00 allowed for hundreds of thousands of issue-free miles from TDIs and gassers (even the 1.8T), and continue to.

heidelberger75 · Dec 11, 2012

Henrick said:
Hello.

Has anyone have made UOA for 1.6 TDI engine? Is some of the UOAs available?

I saw just one on BITOG but it was with 27'000 km on it factory fill.

That was me....I just had another change done after 15,000 km and will send it in for testing.

TooSlick · Dec 12, 2012

Bob,

Before the introduction of 15 ppm, ULSD fuel, the VW 505.00 oils were very marginal for running 10k service intervals. Go back and look at the oil analysis data from the 1999-2005 time frame. This was particularly true for engines that were modified, ie chip tuned, larger injectors, bigger turbos or some combination of all three. It was not uncommon for these modded TDI engines to show 2%-4% soot concentrations after 10k miles. This is when it became popular to use the original Mobil Delvac 1, the Amsoil 10w-40, the Petro-Canada Duron and finally the Rotella T6 when it came on the market. (These were API/CG-4 and later CH-4 rated oils).

TS

bobt2382 · Dec 12, 2012

TooSlick said:
Bob,

Before the introduction of 15 ppm, ULSD fuel, the VW 505.00 oils were very marginal for running 10k service intervals. Go back and look at the oil analysis data from the 1999-2005 time frame. This was particularly true for engines that were modified, ie chip tuned, larger injectors, bigger turbos or some combination of all three. It was not uncommon for these modded TDI engines to show 2%-4% soot concentrations after 10k miles. This is when it became popular to use the original Mobil Delvac 1, the Amsoil 10w-40, the Petro-Canada Duron and finally the Rotella T6 when it came on the market. (These were API/CG-4 and later CH-4 rated oils).

TS

How does the UOA indicate soot load? Is this the insolubles number?

bobt2382 · Dec 12, 2012

How does the UOA indicate soot load? Is this the insolubles number?

Henrick · Dec 12, 2012

heidelberger75 said:
That was me....I just had another change done after 15,000 km and will send it in for testing.

Don't forget to post the results here too!

I've changed my oil and I have driven ~350 hard city miles since then. The oil wasn't even going to start to get darker. I didn't say more black, but darker! There was a moment when I thought that my TDI is actually sick but then I realised these ones must run really lean and economically...

TooSlick · Dec 12, 2012

Bobt,

Yes the insolubles are mainly due soot in diesel engine oil. Some labs like Oil Analyzers measure soot directly with FTIR, a type of infared analysis.

TS

Bob_Fout · Dec 12, 2012

TooSlick said:
Bob,

Before the introduction of 15 ppm, ULSD fuel, the VW 505.00 oils were very marginal for running 10k service intervals. Go back and look at the oil analysis data from the 1999-2005 time frame. This was particularly true for engines that were modified, ie chip tuned, larger injectors, bigger turbos or some combination of all three. It was not uncommon for these modded TDI engines to show 2%-4% soot concentrations after 10k miles. This is when it became popular to use the original Mobil Delvac 1, the Amsoil 10w-40, the Petro-Canada Duron and finally the Rotella T6 when it came on the market. (These were API/CG-4 and later CH-4 rated oils).

TS

Poor tuning is not the fault of the oil, as tuning was pretty crude back then. Pick any VE TDI or 1.8T you still see today and it probably was run with Syntec 5w40 or might even still be. [or other Euro 0w40 or 5w40]

Having talked with multiple shops (indie and dealers) and gurus/trusted mechs who service hundreds of VWs a year (including the pre-ULSD days), I am sure there is no problem with Euro oils in the correct application and interval. If there was some fundamental problem with Euro oils, we would see some indication of that.

Are API oils better as a whole? Sure. Are Euro oils bad? No.

TooSlick · Dec 12, 2012

I wouldn't run Syntec in my Honda law mower...;-)

Seriously though, the 15 ppm ULSD fuel has had a much greater positive impact on the performance of diesel engine oils then I ever would have expected. It more than compensated for the reduction in additives in going from CI-4+ to the low ash, CJ-4 oils.

TS

pleopard · Dec 12, 2012

I ran the Castrol SLX Pro LL03 to 40K miles (end of my "free" oil) and switched to Pentosin SPIII. Here are the results of the third full interval on the Pentosin. The first two analyses were the Castrol. The Pentosin seems to have a marginally higher viscosity at the end of its life than the Castrol did, though it may not really be significant.

TooSlick · Dec 13, 2012

Pleo,

Your engine has always generated low wear metal concentrations, but this last set of numbers is excellent. Finally some data from a fully worn in 2.0L, CBEA engine. The Pentosin and the Castrol appear to use the same basic additive chemistry, but the base stock (base oil) of the German oil may be different (better). Air filtration is excellent and soot is low as well. No worries with this motor.

TS

pleopard · Dec 13, 2012

TooSlick said:
Pleo,

Your engine has always generated low wear metal concentrations, but this last set of numbers is excellent. Finally some data from a fully worn in 2.0L, CBEA engine. The Pentosin and the Castrol appear to use the same basic additive chemistry, but the base stock (base oil) of the German oil may be different (better). Air filtration is excellent and soot is low as well. No worries with this motor.

TS

I'm pleased! I believe I treat the engine quite well though. Roughly 60% of my driving is long highway trips (200+ mile stretches) but the rest is a 5 mile commute to work. Minimizing cold starts per mile is always something I keep in mind. Short warm-ups (less than 1 minute, typically), short cool downs, driven gently until fully warmed up and then I'll push it to 4500rpm on occasion. The DSG doesn't allow engine speed to go any higher.

The Pentosin appears to use more calcium in its additive chemistry.

Blue_Hen_TDI · Dec 13, 2012

First OCI, factory fill in my 2012 Passat purchased 8/20/2012. Welcome any comments. TIA:

TooSlick · Dec 13, 2012

Blue Hen,

You running a biodiesel blend?

Blue_Hen_TDI · Dec 13, 2012

TooSlick said:
Blue Hen,

You running a biodiesel blend?

Varied from straight D2 to B5 depending on fill location. Tried to keep it around B2 for HPFP lubricity.

TooSlick · Dec 13, 2012

I've found that biodiesel can reduce the viscosity of the used oil without significantly reducing the flashpoint. This makes sense as pure biodiesel has a FP > 300F.

There's nothing abnormal with your factory fill analysis. The silicon(e) is simply leachate from seals & gaskets. It is not dirt....

TS

pleopard · Dec 16, 2012

Blackstone sent me four more sample containers (nifty square ones this time). At the rate at which I've been sampling, these will last over 4 years... They're going to tease me into sampling more often to satisfy my curiosity. I'm sure that's part of the intention.

heidelberger75 · Dec 28, 2012

heidelberger75 said:
That was me....I just had another change done after 15,000 km and will send it in for testing.

Here's the second report after about 15,260km.

TooSlick · Dec 28, 2012

'Berger,

This looks fine; all wear metals & contaminants (Si and K) are trending down. Flashpoint is nice and high and plenty of TBN reserve. (It looks like the first owner was running biodiesel in this engine, hence the high fuel dilution and low flashpoint).

A couple of questions...what's the sump capacity and what's average fuel efficiency?

Thanks,

TS

Henrick · Dec 28, 2012

heidelberger75, what oil (brand name, etc) were you using in the sample?
Also, what oil did you use now, after that one sampled was drained?

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